Future of Ticket Office Consultations launched

[Agent_Squash]

Surely the answer in this particular case is to have staff (who are easily identifiable) to help/direct people to the replacement buses? That’s what I’ve always encountered during bus replacements elsewhere (albeit at largeish stations, but I’d have thought Windermere would justify at least one such person)?

Windermere would justify it more than most with how many buses there are!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Windermere example is surely more of a case for a community hub than it is for the retention of a ticket office? Presumably these same tourists would benefit from information about the area beyond the railway.

There is then the question of who is best placed to provide such hubs, but it is probably local government rather than the railway.

The hub can be equipped with computers to allow those who wish to book online to do so, as well as many other functions that will help tackle digital exclusion in rural areas. For example banking, bill paying etc., all of which offer insufficient savings to one agency to merit the provision of a hub, but collectively have sense.

There has been much above about a role for the post office, maybe that is the right provider.

We need to see more creative solutions, rather than presuming everything railway has to be done by a dedicated ticket office.

I take it you don't know Windermere very well? This is not a place for what you're basically describing as a public library but without any books. There no doubt already is a public library somewhere in the area (I know there's one in Ambleside). It's the gateway to a very touristy area.

What is needed is a tourist centre, which if it is comprehensive should be profitable (by way of commission on sales of things other than train tickets e.g. hotel bookings and activities) to operate for the railway. And the same is needed at e.g. the main London termini and airports.

Like anywhere else now, most of the locals will, if they're not just driving, be buying e-tickets on their phone. The rural UK (and it's questionable if the Lakes even acts as a rural economy due to the number of visitors, it's more like a distributed urban area that happens to have some sheep farms) isn't a Luddism hub, people use smartphones just the same as anywhere else.

 

[Topological]

I take it you don't know Windermere very well? This is not a place for what you're basically describing as a public library but without any books. There no doubt already is a public library somewhere in the area (I know there's one in Ambleside). It's the gateway to a very touristy area.

What is needed is a tourist centre, which if it is comprehensive should be profitable (by way of commission on sales of things other than train tickets e.g. hotel bookings and activities) to operate for the railway. And the same is needed at e.g. the main London termini and airports.

Like anywhere else now, most of the locals will, if they're not just driving, be buying e-tickets on their phone. The rural UK (and it's questionable if the Lakes even acts as a rural economy due to the number of visitors, it's more like a distributed urban area that happens to have some sheep farms) isn't a Luddism hub, people use smartphones just the same as anywhere else.

I am very familiar with Windermere as a place of old, though it is a while since I was last there.

It is the tension between focusing a hub on tourists, or a wider provision that works for locals.

I keep getting in trouble for mentioning digital exclusion. It is not about places being hubs of Luddism, but it is an issue which the government take very seriously because there are pockets of exclusion everywhere. So for this one I have actually got an example of the issue from Windermere.

Westmoreland Gazette on Barclays Closing in Windermere (21 July 2022)

Mayor of Windermere, Councillor Adrian Legge, said it was ‘disappointing’ to see the town lose another high-street bank and raised concerns about residents who may not be able to access online banking services.

“It is disappointing to learn of the impending loss of yet another high-street bank in Windermere,” he said.

Continuing with another quote from the interview in the Westmoreland Gazette:

“A further reduction in people visiting branches has been used as justification for more closures. People who do not want to or cannot use online services will feel badly let down. And rightly so.”

This article concerns a period after Covid-19.

The quotes concern a high street bank, but could very easily be about the ticket office and the station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am very familiar with Windermere as a place of old, though it is a while since I was last there.

It is the tension between focusing a hub on tourists, or a wider provision that works for locals.

I keep getting in trouble for mentioning digital exclusion. It is not about places being hubs of Luddism, but it is an issue which the government take very seriously because there are pockets of exclusion everywhere. So for this one I have actually got an example of the issue from Windermere.

The station isn't really the place for that, though. The vast majority of users are tourists so it should cater to them.

Burneside, Staveley and Oxenholme* (and to an extent Kendal) are probably more local-heavy in usage - you could put something like that at one of those I suppose, the latter may be most use. But if you want one in Windermere town itself (which is almost entirely tourist accommodation) just take a spare shop unit for it.

There might be more of an argument for that at Barrow or Ulverston for example, but with both of those stations a bit out of town and the centres both having spare shop units, using a shop unit will probably work better.

* Given that Windermere town is mostly tourists, the majority of locals will be driving from a wider area, and it's usually more convenient to park at Oxenholme. Whereas most inbound tourists will interchange there and head to Windermere, though the ones staying in Kendal itself may take a taxi.

 

[Killingworth]

I am very familiar with Windermere as a place of old, though it is a while since I was last there.

It is the tension between focusing a hub on tourists, or a wider provision that works for locals.

I keep getting in trouble for mentioning digital exclusion. It is not about places being hubs of Luddism, but it is an issue which the government take very seriously because there are pockets of exclusion everywhere. So for this one I have actually got an example of the issue from Windermere.

Westmoreland Gazette on Barclays Closing in Windermere (21 July 2022)


Continuing with another quote from the interview in the Westmoreland Gazette:


This article concerns a period after Covid-19.

The quotes concern a high street bank, but could very easily be about the ticket office and the station.

These quotes bring back memories from 1969. I wrote a paper proposing a Lake District branch for a bank not then represented there. I looked at Coniston, Ambleside and Windermere. 50 years ago it was decided that there was insufficient profitable new business in any of those places to cover the costs. That bank never did open in the Lake District and I'm not surprised those that werre there then have sucumbed.

Those who visit the Lakes in the peak season and on nice sunny days won't see it when it's mostly rugged outdoor types who venture out in the pouring rain. There's a tourist officer beside Windermere Station. That seems to be part of the right answwr there; https://www.visitlakedistrict.com/i...indermere-tourist-information-centre-p1212451

 

[MikeWM]

I tried to buy a PlusBus from the TVMs at Ely yesterday - probably the first time I've ever done that, I've always used a ticket office before, but yesterday it was closed (due to the strikes? Who knows - nowadays it is often shut when it is supposed to be open).

Select ticket, add plusbus, add railcard - 'no railcard discounts are available for this product'. Hmm. Should I give up? Well, there wasn't a queue, so I tried again.
Select ticket, add railcard, add plusbus - worked.

How are passengers supposed to work out how to work around bugs like this? And the TVMs at Ely are generally pretty good (except for not selling Anglia Plus tickets).

(Unrelated, but BRFares appears to be having difficulty showing +BUS tickets too, for some reason).

 

[yorkie]

I tried to buy a PlusBus from the TVMs at Ely yesterday - probably the first time I've ever done that, I've always used a ticket office before, but yesterday it was closed (due to the strikes? Who knows - nowadays it is often shut when it is supposed to be open).

Select ticket, add plusbus, add railcard - 'no railcard discounts are available for this product'. Hmm. Should I give up? Well, there wasn't a queue, so I tried again.
Select ticket, add railcard, add plusbus - worked.

How are passengers supposed to work out how to work around bugs like this? And the TVMs at Ely are generally pretty good (except for not selling Anglia Plus tickets).

I'd bring this to the attention of the TOC whose machine you used, who can pass it onto the TVM provider.

In the near future, the forum's site will be able to issue PlusBus if that's of help.

(Unrelated, but BRFares appears to be having difficulty showing +BUS tickets too, for some reason).

I looked up a couple and found no issues. I suggest you email them with the details.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

How far will the Mayors of Liverpool and Manchester get with the proposed legal action against the closure of ticket offices?

What they really want is the power to decide things like that in their own regions, to be devolved (Burnham is in negotiations to have more powers on the TfGM network).
Burnham doesn't bother with ticket offices on his Metrolink network, except a few centralised ones covering all GM transport.
Rotheram hasn't even started looking at rolling out TVMs on his Merseyrail network or offering e-tickets.
In reality, if faced with the staffing costs, I think they would implement a very similar closure plan, maybe nuanced a bit to retain facilities at major stations/hubs.

 

[Krokodil]

Burnham doesn't bother with ticket offices on his Metrolink network, except a few centralised ones covering all GM transport.

Piccadilly is no longer among them. Perhaps TFGM should take over the ticket office that Avanti are proposing for closure at Piccadilly station, and combine its National Rail functions with the other Travel Shop ones.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Piccadilly is no longer among them. Perhaps TFGM should take over the ticket office that Avanti are proposing for closure at Piccadilly station, and combine its National Rail functions with the other Travel Shop ones.

This wouldn't be a terrible idea. Wasn't he proposing to take some over? TfGM already runs at least one (Horwich Parkway) which it is said will not close, as TfGM is not mandated to close them.

 

[island]

What is needed is a tourist centre, which if it is comprehensive should be profitable (by way of commission on sales of things other than train tickets e.g. hotel bookings and activities)

I very much doubt a non-negligible number of travellers turn up to tourist centres and book hotels for the same day. The vast majority book them online.

 

[Topological]

I very much doubt a non-negligible number of travellers turn up to tourist centres and book hotels for the same day. The vast majority book them online.

Which conveniently goes back to the advantage of having the ability to access online sites within the hub.

I do not know how many people randomly turn up somewhere needing to book, but I imagine it is not 0.

The great thing with providing hubs is they are multifunctional and do not rely on revenue from any one source (train tickets being the source that set this hub talk off originally)

 

[jon0844]

I very much doubt a non-negligible number of travellers turn up to tourist centres and book hotels for the same day. The vast majority book them online.

You would be insane to turn up and try and book a hotel last minute. Hotels aren't cheap at the best of times because of demand, so you'd be lucky to get anything at all - let alone at a good price.

I do however think hubs might be a good idea for many places in the future, except who pays? I can't imagine how easy it would be for local authorities to work with the post office, banks, train operators, bus operators and the like to work together. Who funds what? What about ongoing costs? What if one party wants out in the future? Where does the hub go, especially if a train station isn't near the main town?

And this Government doesn't want to spend money, so who gets the ball rolling?

 

[WesternBiker]

What is needed is a tourist centre, which if it is comprehensive should be profitable (by way of commission on sales of things other than train tickets e.g. hotel bookings and activities) to operate for the railway.

Windermere's tourist information centre is just around the corner from the station - about a minute's walk. Among other services, one thing they already offer is a left luggage service for £8 a day - but I wonder how many passengers using the station know this? It seems as though it could be a natural partnership to add tickets as well...

 

[Skimble19]

I'd bring this to the attention of GTR who can pass it onto the TVM provider.

In the near future, the forum's site will be able to issue PlusBus if that's of help.

I looked up a couple and found no issues. I suggest you email them with the details.

Ely is a Greater Anglia station, so would’ve thought they’d be the one to contact about the TVMs?

 

[MikeWM]

I looked up a couple and found no issues. I suggest you email them with the details.

Any clues as to the ones that work? I've just tried a load in different parts of the country, for both origin and/or destination, and they all return 'no fares available'.

To the latter point, I thought the owner of that website posted on here? To lazy old me, would be easier to just @ them here

 

[yorksrob]

I tried purchasing an off peak day return from Wakefield to Doncaster from an LNER ticket machine and all it came up with was an error message regarding a compulsory reservation not being available. I ended up going to the ticket office window (which would have been my first choice, had they not succumbed to the dreadful bog roll ticketing).

Ticket machines being unable to produce even basic ticket types, as well as being illustrative of the slide in quality of the railway product, suggests that staffed booking offices are still required.

 

[Mabs]

I tried purchasing an off peak day return from Wakefield to Doncaster from an LNER ticket machine and all it came up with was an error message regarding a compulsory reservation not being available. I ended up going to the ticket office window (which would have been my first choice, had they not succumbed to the dreadful bog roll ticketing).

Ticket machines being unable to produce even basic ticket types, as well as being illustrative of the slide in quality of the railway product, suggests that staffed booking offices are still required.

LNER don't do return tickets anymore.

You have to buy two singles. It won't cost you more. Prices have gone down. However it will now take longer to buy two singles than if you bought a return. Imagine 10 people all doing the same thing during the rush hour and the train is coming in 5 minutes and no ticket office.

All Tocs will stop selling return tickets very soon.

 

[sheff1]

LNER don't do return tickets anymore.

You have to buy two singles. It won't cost you more. Prices have gone down.

Wakefield to Doncaster is £10 for an off peak day return .
If you want to buy 2 singles at £11.80 each way because “prices have gone down” that seems exactly what the government would like you to do.

 

[WesternBiker]

Wakefield to Doncaster is £10 for an off peak day return .
If you want to buy 2 singles at £11.80 each way because “prices have gone down” that seems exactly what the government would like you to do.

I've just had a look at the LNER website and it is offering a £4.90 advance single - for a train leaving today at 11:58. Presumably that is what they want to encourage - online booking for a specific train.

 

[yorksrob]

LNER don't do return tickets anymore.

You have to buy two singles. It won't cost you more. Prices have gone down. However it will now take longer to buy two singles than if you bought a return. Imagine 10 people all doing the same thing during the rush hour and the train is coming in 5 minutes and no ticket office.

All Tocs will stop selling return tickets very soon.

Wakefield to Doncaster is £10 for an off peak day return .
If you want to buy 2 singles at £11.80 each way because “prices have gone down” that seems exactly what the government would like you to do.

There's definitely an off peak day return between the two because it comes up as an option (assume it's priced by someone else).


Only once selected does it give the error message.

 

[Killingworth]

There's definitely an off peak day return between the two because it comes up as an option (assume it's priced by someone else).


Only once selected does it give the error message.

Just tried to buy an advanced return from Wakefield to Doncaster with railcad for tomorrow on Notherm app.

£5.60 on specific trains. £6.50 off peak day return. £8.15 any time day return.

Not sure how easy that would be to find at a TVM but only a minute on the app.

 

[sheff1]

I've just had a look at the LNER website and it is offering a £4.90 advance single - for a train leaving today at 11:58. Presumably that is what they want to encourage - online booking for a specific train.

Quite possibly, but if there is no such Advance available when you want to come back you end up paying more than £10.

And, in the context of booking office closures, the staff can discuss options and sell the appropriate ticket(s) depending on individual requirements.

There's definitely an off peak day return between the two because it comes up as an option (assume it's priced by someone else).

Priced by LNER.

 

[yorksrob]

Priced by LNER.

Really ! I'd have expected it to be a lot more expensive.

Anyhow, their ticket machine should certainly be able to churn one out without a load of tripe about seat reservations.

 

[Krokodil]

Oh look, even the Chancellor is opposed to ticket office closures:

Jeremy Hunt tried to stop rail ticket office closures in own area before cuts

Passengers only have until Wednesday to have their say on the devastating proposals put forward by train operators to close ticket offices at 974 stations across England

www.mirror.co.uk

Anyone fancy pointing out to him that he is ultimately responsible for them?

 

[Andrew1395]

I don’t buy Railway tickets online, (except when work forces me to for business travel). But always book uk holiday accommodation and restaurants using apps like AirBnB and through restaurant websites. In fact having Wi-Fi is now as essential as running water in the most rural of rural accommodation.

I don’t use a Post Office at all anymore. Even us 60 year olds, use the internet for passports, driving licences, tv licenses, etc. Stamps. If I need them I get them from our local supermarket when I visit. I even pay the allotment rent online.

Face to face retailing of rail products will only survive where there is a volume of it to cover costs. Or an authority is prepared to subsidise it. Many locations are only getting the commission on other TOC products. So margins are thin. I cant see any factors that will significantly increase the volume of face to face transactions across the network.

So, the debate needs to be how to mitigate the many consequences of de staffing railway stations that this thread and other forums of debate have raised.

One important one must be the input of consumers into the debate on the simplification of price, to make the product easier to navigate. The Treasury will want such a change to mean no more public subsidy. The consumer, lower prices. In that lies the battle lines. But there will be losers and some winners. The status quo won’t survive.

You can of course have change to the product without closing staffed ticket offices. But the industry is in a deep financial hole. The cost of interest on Network Rail debt is £3 billion a year. Across the board cost reductions is the mantra for it and the providers of passenger services.

 

[jon0844]

Oh look, even the Chancellor is opposed to ticket office closures:

Jeremy Hunt tried to stop rail ticket office closures in own area before cuts

Passengers only have until Wednesday to have their say on the devastating proposals put forward by train operators to close ticket offices at 974 stations across England

www.mirror.co.uk

Anyone fancy pointing out to him that he is ultimately responsible for them?

Given the outrage, which I can't imagine the Tories expected, who wants to guess the next move - which is delay or massive scaleback the plans and then throw the RDG and TOCs under the bus for coming up with the idea the Government was never supportive of?

 

[VauxhallandI]

I received an email yesterday from my Council stating they were fighting against GS ticket office closures all over the area.

 

[Krokodil]

Given the outrage, which I can't imagine the Tories expected, who wants to guess the next move - which is delay or massive scaleback the plans and then throw the RDG and TOCs under the bus for coming up with the idea the Government was never supportive of?

The 'consultation' will doubtless flounder once the legal challenges get underway. Blind Veterans has helpfully pointed out that no information has been provided in braille - funny how the very people likely to be worst affected by station destaffing are the ones excluded from the consultation.

 

[scrapy]

I've just had a look at the LNER website and it is offering a £4.90 advance single - for a train leaving today at 11:58. Presumably that is what they want to encourage - online booking for a specific train.

Yet Northern have banned their ticket office from selling on the day advances!