UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[AM9]

An EV doesn’t need an oil change though so you don’t have to worry about that…

I’d also like to know what the etc is beyond suspension? As an EV doesn’t have an ICE, clutch, gearbox, coolant system, all of which are the most likely points of failure if a car has been thrashed and/or poorly maintained.

]
Precisely an EV has a suspension and steering appropriate to its mass and performance. It also has brakes designed to stop the extra weight but any half reasonable driver will hardly make any heavy brake applications so their life is likely to be much higher, and independent of the vehicles history of thrashing.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Didn't The Pretenders do that ?

or even The Proclaimers?!

Doh!

The Proclaimers went 500 miles (and then 500 more)... The Pretenders went 2000 miles. Chrissie Hynde and company were clearly using an ICE vehicle, as they went twice as far and didn't have to stop halfway*.

Joking aside, I'm going to be getting back on the road soon, but I'm not even considering anything other than ICE. I'm in a rented flat at the back of the building with no off-street parking, so having a charging point fitted is beyond my control. That's before you get onto the cost of the vehicle itself.

*=yes, I know that The Proclaimers walked their miles, which definitely gets them the green rosette.

 

[AM9]

The Proclaimers went 500 miles (and then 500 more)... The Pretenders went 2000 miles. Chrissie Hynde and company were clearly using an ICE vehicle, as they went twice as far and didn't have to stop halfway*.

Joking aside, I'm going to be getting back on the road soon, but I'm not even considering anything other than ICE. I'm in a rented flat at the back of the building with no off-street parking, so having a charging point fitted is beyond my control. That's before you get onto the cost of the vehicle itself.

*=yes, I know that The Proclaimers walked their miles, which definitely gets them the green rosette.

Then do it while low cost perol is available because its cost will rise as the demand reduces and supply chains are scaled down. There will be more public fast charging sites than petrol stations.

 

[A0]

]
Precisely an EV has a suspension and steering appropriate to its mass and performance. It also has brakes designed to stop the extra weight but any half reasonable driver will hardly make any heavy brake applications so their life is likely to be much higher, and independent of the vehicles history of thrashing.

No - the components will be designed with the same *tolerances* as they will for an ICE car. So the additional weight of some components won't make them more robust and less susceptible to failure, because they are being designed to handle the additional load the a battery car's weight will put on those components, not to make them last longer.

 

[Roast Veg]

No - the components will be designed with the same *tolerances* as they will for an ICE car. So the additional weight of some components won't make them more robust and less susceptible to failure, because they are being designed to handle the additional load the a battery car's weight will put on those components, not to make them last longer.

I think you'll find this varies between manufacturers.

 

[A0]

I think you'll find this varies between manufacturers.

Well yes, as it does at present - I don't for imagine Dacia go for the same tolerances as Bentley for example. The point I'm making is if Dacia are designing suspension components to last 100,000 miles then they'll do that for the components for their ICE cars and the components for an EV - so whilst the components for the EV will be heavier duty to reflect the additional weight of an EV, it's not being designed to last longer than it is at present.

 

[jon0844]

I've had to fix suspension issues, or have simply paid to upgrade the suspension, and it's all pretty manageable in terms of cost - as well as inspecting the setup for damage and/or wear.

Far easier than buying a performance car that harbours all sorts of expensive mechanical issues that may only become apparent six months or a year down the line. And believe me I've had my fair share of problems over the years that have cost an arm and a leg - along with the issues that have you making the hard decision on whether to fix or scrap (and for many cars you decide with your heart rather than your brain!).

 

[Noddy]

Well yes, as it does at present - I don't for imagine Dacia go for the same tolerances as Bentley for example. The point I'm making is if Dacia are designing suspension components to last 100,000 miles then they'll do that for the components for their ICE cars and the components for an EV - so whilst the components for the EV will be heavier duty to reflect the additional weight of an EV, it's not being designed to last longer than it is at present.

But that contradicts what you said earlier:

Well actually no - a car which has been "thrashed" will have borne additional wear on suspension etc, which since EVs are *much* heavier than an equivalent ICE will be a potentially costly repair.

I’d also point out that yes on a like for like basis EVs are heavier than their ICE equivalent. But ICE cars are also significantly heavier than they were in the past-a standard length Range Rover from the 1970s weighed approx 1700kg but today it’s about 2700kg. You can get many EVs that weigh significantly less than that, for example the BMW iX (2600kg) which is a large SUV with a 100KWh battery.

 

[A0]

I’d also point out that yes on a like for like basis EVs are heavier than their ICE equivalent. But ICE cars are also significantly heavier than they were in the past-a standard length Range Rover from the 1970s weighed approx 1700kg but today it’s about 2700kg. You can get many EVs that weigh significantly less than that, for example the BMW iX (2600kg) which is a large SUV with a 100KWh battery.

The parts will be "heavier" to handle the heavier weight of an EV, which means more material is needed to produce the parts, which means they will cost more to produce.

The *main* reason ICE cars of today are heavier than those of 40 years ago is the strength put into the bodyshells to meet crash test requirements.

It's not engines and gearboxes - The Ford 1.0 ecoboost engine as found in a Focus weighs 97kg - which is less than its cast forebears.

 

[Noddy]

The parts will be "heavier" to handle the heavier weight of an EV, which means more material is needed to produce the parts, which means they will cost more to produce.

Yeah the extra material cost of the components will make the parts slightly more expensive. But in terms of the cost of an actual repair in a garage this will be very marginal as the major cost will likely be labour.

 

[DelW]

Precisely an EV has a suspension and steering appropriate to its mass and performance. It also has brakes designed to stop the extra weight but any half reasonable driver will hardly make any heavy brake applications so their life is likely to be much higher, and independent of the vehicles history of thrashing.

EVs and hybrids should wear their brakes less, as unless they're driven hard, braking will be regenerative using the electric motor, rather than using the friction brakes. In my PHEV, most of my braking is regenerative (there's a dashboard display which shows when that reaches its limit, after which the disc brakes are blended in).

 

[AM9]

EVs and hybrids should wear their brakes less, as unless they're driven hard, braking will be regenerative using the electric motor, rather than using the friction brakes. In my PHEV, most of my braking is regenerative (there's a dashboard display which shows when that reaches its limit, after which the disc brakes are blended in).

That was precisely what I was alluding to particularly referring to "any reasonable driver" who would use regen braking except in emergency braking applications.

 

[A0]

That was precisely what I was alluding to particularly referring to "any reasonable driver" who would use regen braking except in emergency braking applications.

But a "reasonable" driver won't "thrash" an ICE or EV - the point was about a car being "thrashed" and EVs are just aa susceptible to that as ICE cars.

 

[DelW]

That was precisely what I was alluding to particularly referring to "any reasonable driver" who would use regen braking except in emergency braking applications.

Fair enough, I think I misunderstood what you were saying, but we're actually in agreement

 

[david1212]

Have you looked at the BMW i3 Range Extender? That’s fairly similar to what (I think) you are describing?

However, if you compare the specs of the pure EV i3 with the REx versions the addition of the ICE and ancillaries makes a (10-15%) dent on the pure EV range (and therefore overall efficiency) so you’d need to factor that in. I *believe* BMW sold most later ones without the REx as most people found the larger battery enough for their needs if they were worried about range. And presumably why they (or other manufacturers) haven’t done continued to do this with newer models.

As well as the BMW mentioned above, the General Motors Volt / Ampera was fairly close to this concept:

Chevrolet Volt - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

but the fact that other builders didn't follow suit, and that it's no longer in production, suggests that it wasn't an attractive option for enough buyers.

I think that part of the problem is that the petrol engine and its ancillaries aren't much smaller or cheaper for a sub-one-litre, lower power engine than they are for a typical 100-150 bhp engine. Current PHEVs run very efficiently on their direct-transmission petrol engines when on long runs at cruising speeds, while using the electric motor during low speed or urban trips, avoids the inefficient use of the ICE motor.

I was aware of the BMW i3 but not the General Motors Volt / Ampera.

I can understand that the cost of a sub-one-litre 25-30kW engine is not a lot cheaper than say 1.5 litre rated 100+kW.
The saving is space and weight. Air cooled engines went out for various resions but could they work here given intended only to run when travelling?

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Yesterday I was on the M5 nortbound and stopped at Michaelwood services.

Maybe I missed the others but only saw two EV chargers with 5 marked bays. Looking at the chargers both had two leads / connector types but from the screen I think only one could be used at a time.
As I've posted back on this thread many more and the national grid supply infrastructure to support them are needed by 2030.

Both were in use and the screen showed a cost of 69.xxx p/kWh. VAT 20% but no fuel duty.
At even 60mph if 2.5 miles/kWh that is ~28p/mile. At 40mpg and current prices an ICE vehicle would be ~16p/mile including fuel duty.


Mentioning this at work today a comment was made wondering for the households who have a pure EV how many also have a second car be that ICE or hybrid for longer journeys.

 

[trebor79]

Mentioning this at work today a comment was made wondering for the households who have a pure EV how many also have a second car be that ICE or hybrid for longer journeys.

We are a 2 EV household. No ICE at all.

 

[Noddy]

I was aware of the BMW i3 but not the General Motors Volt / Ampera.

I can understand that the cost of a sub-one-litre 25-30kW engine is not a lot cheaper than say 1.5 litre rated 100+kW.
The saving is space and weight. Air cooled engines went out for various resions but could they work here given intended only to run when travelling?

I think the fact that not many companies have done this, and those that were are no longer doing it, suggests the demand is just not there.

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Yesterday I was on the M5 nortbound and stopped at Michaelwood services.

Maybe I missed the others but only saw two EV chargers with 5 marked bays. Looking at the chargers both had two leads / connector types but from the screen I think only one could be used at a time.

I believe there is some sort of deadline/requirement to up the numbers at service stations this year (will check).

As I've posted back on this thread many more and the national grid supply infrastructure to support them are needed by 2030.

But why are folk so fixated on 2030? ICE cars aren’t being banned then and folk will still be able to buy hybrids for another 5 years beyond this date. We’re not banning them completely and throwing them off a cliff!

Both were in use and the screen showed a cost of 69.xxx p/kWh. VAT 20% but no fuel duty.
At even 60mph if 2.5 miles/kWh that is ~28p/mile. At 40mpg and current prices an ICE vehicle would be ~16p/mile including fuel duty.

Yes, motorway services/super fast chargers are the most expensive but most people wouldn’t regularly fill up their ICE at a service station either because of the price. Most folk charge at home most of the time at much much lower cost (eg 7.5p on intelligent octopus, even standard price capped electricity is around 35-38p, and Ubitricity lamppost charging in central London is around 40p). Also 2.5KWh at 60 is very poor efficiency.

Mentioning this at work today a comment was made wondering for the households who have a pure EV how many also have a second car be that ICE or hybrid for longer journeys.

We have two cars and our primary car is the EV!

 

[paul1609]

Yes, motorway services/super fast chargers are the most expensive but most people wouldn’t regularly fill up their ICE at a service station either because of the price. Most folk charge at home most of the time at much much lower cost (eg 7.5p on intelligent octopus, even standard price capped electricity is around 35-38p, and Ubitricity lamppost charging in central London is around 40p). Also 2.5KWh at 60 is very poor efficiency.

What sort of charge rates do lamppost chargers achieve?

 

[Energy]

What sort of charge rates do lamppost chargers achieve?

The ubitricity ones are 5kw. Enough for overnight charging.

 

[Noddy]

What sort of charge rates do lamppost chargers achieve?

The ubitricity ones are 5kw. Enough for overnight charging.

Yes, 5kw and looking at the Electroverse app you get 7 hours of overnight charging at 37p-as long as you plug in after midnight (which is a bit of a con)!. There may be other subscription type pricing available too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jul 2023 ==

I believe there is some sort of deadline/requirement to up the numbers at service stations this year (will check).

So I’ve had a quick look: The government ‘aims’ to have a minimum of six ‘high powered’ chargers at every service station in England by the end of 2023.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/going-the-distance-are-motorways-ready-for-more-electric-vehicles/

 

[david1212]

I believe there is some sort of deadline/requirement to up the numbers at service stations this year (will check).

I will be interested what you find. Never mind 31st December 2023 a big increase by 31st December 2024 is a large amount of work across multiple sites.

But why are folk so fixated on 2030? ICE cars aren’t being banned then and folk will still be able to buy hybrids for another 5 years beyond this date. We’re not banning them completely and throwing them off a cliff!

While not set in stone by the start of 2029 current statements by manufacturers imply that ICE cars will not be produced for the UK market with just residual stock available to all be sold by 31st December 2029 unless pre-registered. Leading up to this while AFAIK not yet a formal / legal mandate there is at least an expectation for a proportion of all cars sold to be an EV increasing each year and to be 50% in 2028.

We have two cars and our primary car is the EV!

We are a 2 EV household. No ICE at all.

What is your longest regular journey? Do you regularly have to charge at public chargers?

Back in time our visits to my grandparents was a 250 mile round trip. Charging there for 6 hours from a 13A socket would add at most 18kW. Unless the car was long range / large battery either while there go off to a fast charger or a stop would be required soon after starting the return journey. A 5kW lamp post would add 30kWh over 6 hours.

Recently to the same area for a funeral to the crematorium then a country pub / restaurant for a couple of hours. Imagine this was 2038 not 2023. No charging to be expected at the crematorium and even if chargers at the country pub / restaurant how many and what charging rate? Again unless the car was long range / large battery most likely to have to add at least 100 miles from a fast charger soon after starting the return journey.

 

[Energy]

Back in time our visits to my grandparents was a 250 mile round trip. Charging there for 6 hours from a 13A socket would add at most 18kW. Unless the car was long range / large battery either while there go off to a fast charger or a stop would be required soon after starting the return journey. A 5kW lamp post would add 30kWh over 6 hours.

250 miles would be fine on a long range EV, or almost any of them with a stop in the middle.

 

[trebor79]

What is your longest regular journey? Do you regularly have to charge at public chargers?

Again unless the car was long range / large battery most likely to have to add at least 100 miles from a fast charger soon after starting the return journey.

The Niro is mainly used for local journeys. Charged at home once or twice a week, never at a public charger.

The Tesla about 40% of charging is at superchargers, these are 22p - 44p per kWh depending upon location and time of day. That's between 4p and 8p per mile at motorway speeds.
I do 1,000 miles a week I the Tesla. I did 400 miles today and charged once at a supercharger, cost £20 but I could have easily got away with £10. Charging at home is 7.5p per kWH, or less than 2p per mile at motorway speeds.
The other week I did 268 miles, 95% on motorways from Preston to home. Stopped twice for comfort/rest/tea, didn't charge until within 30 miles of home and stopped for 3 minutes and a few quid.

Adding 100 miles of range takes about 5 minutes at a low state of charge.

 

[The Ham]

250 miles would be fine on a long range EV, or almost any of them with a stop in the middle.

Even a 250 mile round trip isn't that common for the majority of people (IIRC the average is 8 trips per person per year of over 50 miles).

Whilst we regularly do circa 250 miles one way to see family we would still likely look at our options for an EV for the next car we get.

Yes charging away from home is likely to be more costly, however even within that long distance journey it's likely to be comparable to what we pay for petrol for that trip, but be cheaper for all other travel we do.

 

[Noddy]

I will be interested what you find. Never mind 31st December 2023 a big increase by 31st December 2024 is a large amount of work across multiple sites.

I did mention this in my earlier post (it got merged in so you may have missed). The government ‘aim’ is to have 6 ultra-rapid at every service station in England. I think the issue is not so much building them, they’re fairly small footprint typically built on existing car parks in service stations, but getting the grid connections in. Gridserve recently opened a new charging station at Cornwall Services for 12 vehicles (6 ultra-fast, six slow for overnight charging) but in order to this have had to develop a hybrid system involving a 1MWh battery and solar panels to allow them to operate at that site and even then they’re not operating at full capacity while the system is bedded in (ie they know it works).

GRIDSERVE accelerates High Power EV charging with UK-first battery and solar power innovation at Cornwall Services | GRIDSERVE

GRIDSERVE, the technology market leader in EV (Electric Vehicle) charging, has delivered another UK first at Cornwall Services with a new solution that combines the latest innovations in batteries and solar energy to supplement the existing grid connection to deliver ten times the charging...

www.gridserve.com

What is your longest regular journey? Do you regularly have to charge at public chargers?

Caveat is I will say we’ve not had the EV that long but the longest regular (twice) journey: 150 miles each way to the in-laws (300 total), mostly but not all motorway/dual carriageway. The 58KWh Cupra Born will do 100%>35% in ok conditions, not done it the absolute depths of in winter yet but can’t see it being more than one stop (same Ionity station both times) across the two journeys.

Longest likely journey: 410 miles (820 total) to see my brother. We haven’t done this journey yet but we’d stop at least twice, probably three times anyway so I’m not worried about it all. Looking a the route planner there are loads of fast hubs dotted along the route.

I’m a surveyor-typically my ‘commute’, which changes on a daily basis is 10-150 miles total each day. I always charge at home for commuting/normal use.

 

[bspahh]

I did mention this in my earlier post (it got merged in so you may have missed). The government ‘aim’ is to have 6 ultra-rapid at every service station in England. I think the issue is not so much building them, they’re fairly small footprint typically built on existing car parks in service stations, but getting the grid connections in. Gridserve recently opened a new charging station at Cornwall Services for 12 vehicles (6 ultra-fast, six slow for overnight charging) but in order to this have had to develop a hybrid system involving a 1MWh battery and solar panels to allow them to operate at that site and even then they’re not operating at full capacity while the system is bedded in (ie they know it works).

It doesn't say that they aim for all 6 of the chargers to work at high power at the same time.

 

[The Ham]

It doesn't say that they aim for all 6 of the chargers to work at high power at the same time.

It's almost like you think the government might be inclined to bend the truth with targets, that'll never happen...

The total asylum initial decision backlog has increased since December - Full Fact

The home secretary’s claim that the backlog is down by 17,000 refers only to applications made before 28 June 2022.

fullfact.org

In Parliament on Monday, home secretary Suella Braverman claimed that “the asylum initial decision backlog is down by 17,000”.

This is not correct in terms of the total number of asylum cases awaiting an initial decision. Home Office data shows the number of applications awaiting an initial decision has actually increased since the Prime Minister Rishi Sunak outlined a five-point plan to tackle the asylum backlog in December 2022.

The Home Office has since clarified that the 17,000 figure refers to the backlog of initial decisions relating to asylum applications made before 28 June 2022, though this wasn’t made clear in Ms Braverman’s comments.

...oh never mind

 

[NoRoute]

While not set in stone by the start of 2029 current statements by manufacturers imply that ICE cars will not be produced for the UK market with just residual stock available to all be sold by 31st December 2029 unless pre-registered. Leading up to this while AFAIK not yet a formal / legal mandate there is at least an expectation for a proportion of all cars sold to be an EV increasing each year and to be 50% in 2028.

While sales of new plain ICE cars are due to be phased out, plug-in hybrids are expected to continue to be sold upto 2035 and these provide as much range, if not more than existing plain ICE cars so there isn't really a problem.

 

[778]

Thought I'd post an update on where EV adoption in the UK is currently and is predicted to be by the end of the year.

We currently have 810k on the roads with 152k sold in the first 6 months . Based on trends YTD the million EV mark will be passed by either December or January. This will take EV numbers to around 1 in 35 cars on the road. Around 300k EV will have been sold in 2023.

In terms of the discussion of extended range models with more or more energy dense batteries, these will come as technology is moving rapidly and so much resources are being used in battery development.
It's likely that most cars will be offered in both a more expensive extended range and cheaper shorter range models as for most people 200 miles range is plenty.

If only 1 in 35 cars on the road are electric vehicles by the end of 2023, that does not bode well for the 2030 target.

 

[Bald Rick]

If only 1 in 35 cars on the road are electric vehicles by the end of 2023, that does not bode well for the 2030 target.

For the umpteenth time - it’s about new car registrations, not cars on the road.

The targets are:

2024, 22% of cars sold are EVs
2025, 28%
2026, 33%
2027, 38%
2028, 52%
2029, 66%
2030, 80% (the other 20% being hybrids)
2035, 100%

Halfway through 2023, the current market share is:
18% for EVs (and growing)
19% for Hybrids + Plug in Hybrids

or, in other words, not far off the EV target for the whole of next year.