TfL proposes to withdraw Day Travelcards

[35B]

A one off fee. How many people go to London once ever?

OK, probably some overseas tourists who have paid several hundred quid for their trip at least, often over a thousand, and so aren't going to baulk at £7.

Don't let's wheel the RUK Standard Minority out, it is really quite unhelpful to this sort of discussion. If it's a given that this will go ahead, which it seems it is, then we move onto how to mitigate the situation for real world use cases. And the mitigation for someone who likes paying cash is to get an Oyster and put the necessary amount of money onto it paying by cash, just as every London bus user in that position has for over ten years.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jul 2023 ==



I would expect pretty much no hit whatsoever, to be honest. Possibly a small hit on TfL themselves if some people travelling in groups who don't want to use contactless choose to just get around using Uber, perhaps (which is quite good value for a group of 3 or 4), but not a massive one.

That book was written in the days when it was Travelcard or faff around buying a paper single each time. We've moved on from that. Judging by the number of e-tickets you see being scanned at Euston 8-11 gateline, I suspect a fairly large number of people have already switched.

And a real world use case is that where people visit London occasionally, many don't plan for their kids to have to have permits a month before the trip, and then organise their lives around TfL's payment system. Many don't plan the trip in time to acquire the Zip card; others simply don't know how it works.

Having seen a friend burned by this when it just applied to buses, I've long felt that the "everyone can do this" approach stinks. There are certain groups - under 18s from outside London being one in particular - who will be disadvantaged by this and it is scant consolation to know that this doesn't breach the Equalities Act because it's been applied in a compliant manner.

Mitigation needs to be simple, straightforward and not implemented as a tourist tax.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't see any issues with a "tourist tax". It's a solid concept implemented all over the world.

I would say there should be a simple way to order Oysters pre credited with N days of the chosen daily cap, including half fare child ones, though.

 

[matt_world2004]

And a real world use case is that where people visit London occasionally, many don't plan for their kids to have to have permits a month before the trip, and then organise their lives around TfL's payment system. Many don't plan the trip in time to acquire the Zip card; others simply don't know how it works.

Having seen a friend burned by this when it just applied to buses, I've long felt that the "everyone can do this" approach stinks. There are certain groups - under 18s from outside London being one in particular - who will be disadvantaged by this and it is scant consolation to know that this doesn't breach the Equalities Act because it's been applied in a compliant manner.

Mitigation needs to be simple, straightforward and not implemented as a tourist tax.

Under 11s can travel free on tfl services without a oyster card. And for 11 -15 year old the young visitor discount can be loaded at any tube station which gives half price travel to those without an oyster card

 

[MikeWh]

Actually if you read his letter, Sadiq Khan says that the travelcards don't have to be scrapped provided the DFT or RDG come up with a may to make it work. So instead of trying to make it work with them he's gone down the fake public consultation and blackmail route which is a typical Khan he always has to have his own way!

At the end of the day he has to generate extra income from January 2024. He has to give 6 months notice of intention to withdraw from part of the travelcard agreement. If that focuses the minds of the RDG and home counties MPs then there might yet be a way out.

 

[35B]

I can't see any issues with a "tourist tax". It's a solid concept implemented all over the world.

I would say there should be a simple way to order Oysters pre credited with N days of the chosen daily cap, including half fare child ones, though.

I've no particular problem with a tourist tax. I do have a problem where the cost actually falls as a knowledge tax, and is set to penalise those who have least understanding of London and it's transport system.

Under 11s can travel free on tfl services without a oyster card. And for 11 -15 year old the young visitor discount can be loaded at any tube station which gives half price travel to those without an oyster card

Not a lot of use if you haven't got time before the trip to arrange for a Visitor Oyster to be sent out. The whole issue is not the drive towards paperless, but the abject failure to consider the real world circumstances of many.

 

[MikeWM]

Clerk: You're paying by card right?**
Passenger: Yeah.
Clerk: Just tap it on the barriers on the Tube as you go in and out and it'll work out what to charge you.
Passenger: OK, fine. Just to London then

You're somewhat glossing over the point that I've made a few times here, that a lot of people (including myself) are deeply uncomfortable with this novel approach of 'offer my entire current account to some faceless corporation and *hope* it will charge me the correct amount, when it isn't even especially clear what that amount should be, without a lot of faffing about'.

Clearly a lot of people are quite happy doing that for some reason I don't entirely understand, but an awful lot of people - particularly those for whom money is very tight, which is an increasing number - are not.

 

[Western Sunset]

I also like to have the security of having a physical ticket in my hand, namely a Zone 1-6 Travelcard. Tapping in and out, yellow readers, pink readers, worrying about how long I can stay at a station, will I exceed max journey time. All these hassles, when before I just paid for my ticket and the day was mine, worry-free...

When the Travelcard goes I won't bother.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You're somewhat glossing over the point that I've made a few times here, that a lot of people (including myself) are deeply uncomfortable with this novel approach of 'offer my entire current account to some faceless corporation and *hope* it will charge me the correct amount, when it isn't even especially clear what that amount should be, without a lot of faffing about'.

Clearly a lot of people are quite happy doing that for some reason I don't entirely understand, but an awful lot of people - particularly those for whom money is very tight, which is an increasing number - are not.

Then get an Oyster and credit it using cash.

 

[Magdalia]

* This is what almost everyone asks for - the term "Travelcard" isn't as widely known as you might think

I think you underestimate the "brand recognition" of travelcard amongst the generation of people who remember when it was new, were persuaded to make their first day out by train in London by the advertising campaign, and have used travelcard on visits to London ever since.

You're somewhat glossing over the point that I've made a few times here, that a lot of people (including myself) are deeply uncomfortable with this novel approach of 'offer my entire current account to some faceless corporation and *hope* it will charge me the correct amount, when it isn't even especially clear what that amount should be, without a lot of faffing about'.

Clearly a lot of people are quite happy doing that for some reason I don't entirely understand, but an awful lot of people - particularly those for whom money is very tight, which is an increasing number - are not.

I'm with you on this. There are also people who pay by card, but always put the card in a reader and enter their PIN, never using contactless payment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I also like to have the security of having a physical ticket in my hand, namely a Zone 1-6 Travelcard. Tapping in and out, yellow readers, pink readers, worrying about how long I can stay at a station, will I exceed max journey time. All these hassles, when before I just paid for my ticket and the day was mine, worry-free...

When the Travelcard goes I won't bother.

You're in a tiny minority of people who won't visit quite probably the greatest city in the world simply because the public transport ticketing is very slightly awkward.

Best not go to Belgrade - the man in seat 61 has reported that you can now only get tickets there by SMS on a Serbian SIM card!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jul 2023 ==

I think you underestimate the "brand recognition" of travelcard amongst the generation of people who remember when it was new, were persuaded to make their first day out by train in London by the advertising campaign, and have used travelcard on visits to London ever since.

Those people are now getting on a bit, alongside the typical people who object to buying stuff online or smartphones.

I'm with you on this. There are also people who pay by card, but always put the card in a reader and enter their PIN, never using contactless payment.

...thinking this makes things more secure when it doesn't (unless they have had their bank set the contactless limit to zero, but I'd venture most won't know how to do that or that you even can).

 

[Western Sunset]

Oh, I'll still visit London, though will use my ENCTS bus pass to get around. But I'll miss the convenience and hassle-free nature of the Travelcard. If I'm in a small minority, so be it.

 

[Magdalia]

I also like to have the security of having a physical ticket in my hand, namely a Zone 1-6 Travelcard. Tapping in and out, yellow readers, pink readers, worrying about how long I can stay at a station, will I exceed max journey time. All these hassles, when before I just paid for my ticket and the day was mine, worry-free...

When the Travelcard goes I won't bother.

I'm with you on this too.

I won't give up on London completely, but everyone I meet there will need to agree a venue within walking distance of a Thameslink station or Liverpool Street.

Those people are now getting on a bit

Given that Capitalcard/Travelcard started in 1986, that includes people as young as 55. That's a lot of people that you think can be disregarded, and a lot of them would be offended by the implication that they are "getting on a bit".

 

[matt_world2004]

Not a lot of use if you haven't got time before the trip to arrange for a Visitor Oyster to be sent out. The whole issue is not the drive towards paperless, but the abject failure to consider the real world circumstances of many.

You don't need it sent out its a standard discount loaded on at tube stations on normal oyster cards zip cards are sent in tbe post and are not visitor cards

 

[heathrowrail]

At the end of the day he has to generate extra income from January 2024. He has to give 6 months notice of intention to withdraw from part of the travelcard agreement. If that focuses the minds of the RDG and home counties MPs then there might yet be a way out.

The problem is all he's done is a fake consultation and then said "I'm scrapping it anyway". That's Sadiq's way as many Londoners know by now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh, I'll still visit London, though will use my ENCTS bus pass to get around. But I'll miss the convenience and hassle-free nature of the Travelcard. If I'm in a small minority, so be it.

I'd rather it remained, but there's an alternative for most use cases, you've just found yours and it'll save you money

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jul 2023 ==

The problem is all he's done is a fake consultation and then said "I'm scrapping it anyway". That's Sadiq's way as many Londoners know by now.

That's every consultation ever, pretty much.

 

[JonathanH]

The problem is all he's done is a fake consultation

It wasn't a consultation, it was an information gathering exercise merely to identify who was affected, and whether there was any further mitigation needed.

People from outside London having to pay more is not TfL's problem.

 

[matt_world2004]

One has to wonder if the 40 million saving from not accepting travelcards is worth the economic harm that removing them would do. If it means 40 million+ less is spent in London because the ticketing is perceived to be complicated then its going to end up costing london money

Also the fact that tfl is going to be receiving local london government funding to continue to accept weekly/monthly/annual travelcards means that these are probably going to be removed in future too

 

[Bletchleyite]

One has to wonder if the 40 million saving from not accepting travelcards is worth the economic harm that removing them would do. If it means 40 million+ less is spent in London because the ticketing is perceived to be complicated then its going to end up costing london money

People won't stop visiting London because of this by and large. The few that will are likely to be low spenders and so no great loss.

Also the fact that tfl is going to be receiving local london government funding to continue to accept weekly/monthly/annual travelcards means that these are probably going to be removed in future too

In time they likely will, yes, once Project Oval is fully rolled out. But for now they won't.

 

[Wallsendmag]

One has to wonder if the 40 million saving from not accepting travelcards is worth the economic harm that removing them would do. If it means 40 million+ less is spent in London because the ticketing is perceived to be complicated then its going to end up costing london money

Also the fact that tfl is going to be receiving local london government funding to continue to accept weekly/monthly/annual travelcards means that these are probably going to be removed in future too

It isn’t complicated for the average tourist if they have a contactless card, Apple or Google pay though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It isn’t complicated for the average tourist if they have a contactless card though.

It's a bit of a pain for kids unless you just get them a prepaid debit card and pay adult rates, but TfL could make that easier if they wanted. And obviously younger kids are free without any ticket. Kids will increasingly have these anyway as cash payment falls further and further out of favour in wider society.

 

[northwichcat]

Unless I'm missing something I don't really see how it's seen as Londoners subsiding outsiders, when the contactless Travelcard prices are significantly lower than the paper ones. For someone starting their journey outside the TfL area and printing a Travelcard alongside their National Rail ticket, they won't even be using a ticket machine that TfL pays for.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unless I'm missing something I don't really see how it's seen as Londoners subsiding outsiders, when the contactless Travelcard prices are significantly lower than the paper ones. For someone starting their journey outside the TfL area and printing a Travelcard alongside their National Rail ticket, they won't even be using a ticket machine that TfL pays for.

You are missing something. Most outboundary Travelcards (effectively a combined ticket to the boundary and Travelcard) are priced only a few pounds more than a return to London, so the Travelcard element is very cheap indeed.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Unless I'm missing something I don't really see how it's seen as Londoners subsiding outsiders, when the contactless Travelcard prices are significantly lower than the paper ones. For someone starting their journey outside the TfL area and printing a Travelcard alongside their National Rail ticket, they won't even be using a ticket machine that TfL pays for.

They aren’t printing separate tickets in the main they are buying a ticket from home to zones R1256 for the same price as a ticket to the London terminal.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They aren’t printing separate tickets in the main they are buying a ticket from home to zones R1256 for the same price as a ticket to the London terminal.

Are there many where it's the same price? I've heard of it only being a couple of quid extra though. It's about £6 from Bletchley off peak, and the Anytime isn't worth buying unless you're doing loads of travel.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Are there many where it's the same price? I've heard of it only being a couple of quid extra though. It's about £6 from Bletchley off peak, and the Anytime isn't worth buying unless you're doing loads of travel.

Someone said the some SWR flows are a zero add on

 

[northwichcat]

You are missing something. Most outboundary Travelcards (effectively a combined ticket to the boundary and Travelcard) are priced only a few pounds more than a return to London, so the Travelcard element is very cheap indeed.

I thought if I buy an Off Peak Return to London Z1-2 ticket then it's valid for one journey and it costs a bit more than buying one to London Terminals and then doing one PAYG journey on the Underground. If I add the optional Travelcard option (that appears like PlusBus) then it costs more than PAYG. So a ticket to London Z1-2 only works out better if I experience a delay of over 1 hour and can claim Delay Repay for 50% of the full ticket price.

 

[Deerfold]

I If I add the optional Travelcard option (that appears like PlusBus) then it costs more than PAYG.

That's not an outboundary travelcard you're adding. That's buying 2 tickets - a return and an inboundary travelcard.

 

[johncrossley]

Are there many where it's the same price? I've heard of it only being a couple of quid extra though. It's about £6 from Bletchley off peak, and the Anytime isn't worth buying unless you're doing loads of travel.

Where the Day Travelcard and Off Peak Day Return price is £13 with Network Railcard then the price is the same.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's not an outboundary travelcard you're adding. That's buying 2 tickets - a return and an inboundary travelcard.

Though for what it's worth adjusting things so they are priced like that would probably be a fix without the need for anyone to add subsidy.

Fair point on the weekday Network Railcard minimum fare, though ones sold with that discount and priced between £13.10 and £19.50 (so as to give rise to that situation) are probably in the minority.

 

[northwichcat]

That's not an outboundary travelcard you're adding. That's buying 2 tickets - a return and an inboundary travelcard.

The option to buy a ticket to a destination of London Z1-2 no longer exists for Northwich.

What I was referring to, is this option that comes up after you selected an Off Peak Return for London. Even if I enter a return date of the same day as the outbound date, it comes up with Travelcard options starting at £15.20 for a one day Travelcard.

With a Travelcard you can travel as often as you like on bus, Tube, tram, DLR, London Overground and National Rail services within the London travel zones.

1. When are you travelling?​

Tickets are valid all day on the weekend


After 09:30, Monday – Friday
Off-Peak Travelcard

2. Which zone will you be travelling in?​

LONDON ZONES 1-4

---

Total

£15.20