Did BR Miss a Trick With Steam Locos

[Andy873]

I've often wondered given the popularity of heritage railways (especially when running steam locos) why BR didn't hold back a few of them and run steam train tours / specials after the end of steam in 1968. or did they?

I could imagine having two or three sheds on a part time basis to stable them in / clean out etc. These could have been used on bank holidays, school holidays, easter, and around Christmas.

The questions are:
Did BR even run steam specials after 1968? and if not - why not?
Would a small number of dedicated sheds run on a part time basis have been practical?
Could BR not see the potential?

I remember going on a steam special (probably around 1978) from Lancashire up to the Cumbrian coast. The train was packed but I've no idea who organised it. What I do remember was sticking my head out of the window many times only to eventually get a spec of grit / soot in one of my eyes!

 

[pdeaves]

Steam was 'old fashioned'. The corporate policy was 'no steam on the main line'. It took three years to relent and allow preserved steam locos to haul charters.

 

[341o2]

Wasn't there a time when Flying Scotsman was the only steam locomotive permitted on the mainline?

 

[Eyersey468]

Wasn't there a time when Flying Scotsman was the only steam locomotive permitted on the mainline?

I seem to remember that was the case from about 1968 to about 1971

 

[randyrippley]

It wouldn't have been cost effective
Not only would you have to keep a shed or sheds open, you'd still need a works with all the metal bashing skills.
Staff training for a small number of specialist drivers and cleaners wouldn't have been cost effective. Just little things like spot orders for coal would have been seen as a waste of time.

 

[Gloster]

Steam was 'old fashioned'.

Very much so. BR was fighting for its life and so it had to project a modern image: blue modern clean diesels and electrics, modern coaches and a forward looking ethos. Steam was old, dirty (do not underestimate just how dirty it was and what a negative image that gave) and even more labour intensive than diesels.

And of course you had the problems of getting staff to do the filthy jobs, not just as cleaner (no disrespect to Loppylugs), but coaling, dealing with ash, etc. This was not an obvious employment choice for many in the Swinging Sixties. Additionally, Beeching had destroyed the belief that it might be a hard job, but it was a secure one.

At the end of steam the market for steam specials was very much an enthusiast thing, while the general public would have little interest in going on a steam trip just because it was a steam trip. A depot might gain profitable work for a few weeks in the year, but a depot is an all-year-round operation, and the enthusiasts would just not provide enough business to keep it in profit. And it would have to make a profit if the critics in press and parliament were going to be silenced.

 

[341o2]

I was about to say the same. The railways had difficulty recruiting staff to do the job. I remember someone recounting life as a fireman in the last days of Fenchurch St to Shoeburyness under steam. The loco crews would admire the office girls as they left the train, but few gave these grimy men on the footplate a second glance

 

[70014IronDuke]

I was about to say the same. The railways had difficulty recruiting staff to do the job. I remember someone recounting life as a fireman in the last days of Fenchurch St to Shoeburyness under steam. The loco crews would admire the office girls as they left the train, but few gave these grimy men on the footplate a second glance

Not even if it was Joe Brown (of the Bruvvers fame)?

(For those who don't know, Joe was a fireman (I think) at Plaistow shed before hitting the stage.)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jul 2023 ==

I've often wondered given the popularity of heritage railways (especially when running steam locos) why BR didn't hold back a few of them and run steam train tours / specials after the end of steam in 1968. or did they?

I could imagine having two or three sheds on a part time basis to stable them in / clean out etc. These could have been used on bank holidays, school holidays, easter, and around Christmas.

No, far, far too costly to keep the men and machines in trim for some odd workings at different times of the year. And this ignores the "branding" issue regarding steam - as others have pointed out, it was a rush, rush, rush to get rid of steam from c 1962, partly hard economics, partly (lack of) human resources and partly image.

However - I was up there in Lancashire for the last 12 days of steam - and I have always been amazed that it ended when it did, ie at the beginning of August, the height of the summer season, at a time when there were still many more seasonal holiday trains than there are today.

There were hundreds, if not well over a thousand, enthusiasts around every weekday as it was school hols, many with some sort of rover ticket (like myself, I had an LMR rover the first week, and a NW rover for the second), and many more at weekends.

I remember a tent, presumably for enthusiasts, pitched on the grounds of one shed - Rose Grove, I think!

And I have wondered if it would have made commercial sense to keep one depot open until the end of August, with a very limited number of turns - maybe Lostock Hall, with a daily trip Preston - Carlisle via the Cumbrian Coast and return (assuming the loco could be turned etc at Carlisle) during weekdays, and something different on weekends - maybe Preston - Carlisle via Hellifield and return.

These would not have been enthusiast specials - just regular summer extras, available at standard fares. There would have been hundreds of DAAs out - and provided the ticket inspectors were keen on it - they would have had to buy tickets, so it would have made economic sense to buy rovers.

And of course, the odd spare engine kept in steam would have been useful cover for diesel failures.

But it was not to be. The BRB were certainly keen on ridding themselves of steam. On August 2nd (the final weekday of normal steam) there must have been 35 - 40 steam turns from the three depots. Three days later, Monday August 5 - none whatsoever.

 

[D6130]

with a daily trip Preston - Carlisle via the Cumbrian Coast and return (assuming the loco could be turned etc at Carlisle) during weekdays, and something different on weekends - maybe Preston - Carlisle via Hellifield and return.

IIRC, loco-hauled stock was banned between Maryport and Carlisle at that time, due to the extremely tight clearances under several of the original over bridges....therefore such a special would have had to terminate and run-round at Workington. (The slightly narrower-bodied class 108 DMUs used on the Cumbrian Coast Line in that era were fitted with three horizontal bars across each door droplight to prevent passenger decapitation).

 

[Ken H]

BR regarded steam locos as withdrawn rolling stock. There was the same issue with preserved diesels. It took a long time before this policy was changed.

 

[Gloster]

IIRC, loco-hauled stock was banned between Maryport and Carlisle at that time, due to the extremely tight clearances under several of the original over bridges....therefore such a special would have had to terminate and run-round at Workington. (The slightly narrower-bodied class 108 DMUs used on the Cumbrian Coast Line in that era were fitted with three horizontal bars across each door droplight to prevent passenger decapitation).

Being pedantic, I think that when steam ended the Cumbrian Coast through Workington was still being worked by Derby Lightweights and it was only in 1969 that the Class 108 started to displace them. Even they had window bars.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Being pedantic, I think that when steam ended the Cumbrian Coast through Workington was still being worked by Derby Lightweights and it was only in 1969 that the Class 108 started to displace them. Even they had window bars.

Yes, it was - the early ones (Yellow diamond units, weren't they?).

But point taken, of course, regular rolling stock was banned on the old Maryport & Carlisle section. The trains would perhaps have worked just to Whitehaven or Workington and turned there. Or maybe even just to Millom.

 

[Magdalia]

BR didn't hold back a few of them and run steam train tours / specials after the end of steam in 1968. or did they?

Does the Vale of Rheidol Railway count?

More seriously, I've looked at lots of BRB papers for this period in the National Archives, and I don't remember seeing any consideration of this for the main line.

Wasn't there a time when Flying Scotsman was the only steam locomotive permitted on the mainline?

Flying Scotsman hauled various special trains in autumn 1968, then spring and summer 1969, before sailing for the USA.

I seem to remember that was the case from about 1968 to about 1971

"Return to Steam" began with the King George V trips from Bulmers at Hereford in October 1971.

For those interested, more details are on Six Bells Junction.

 

[Welly]

Yes, BR did miss a trick with steam locos by not dieselising sooner!

 

[randyrippley]

Yes, it was - the early ones (Yellow diamond units, weren't they?).

But point taken, of course, regular rolling stock was banned on the old Maryport & Carlisle section. The trains would perhaps have worked just to Whitehaven or Workington and turned there. Or maybe even just to Millom.

So what was used prior to the narrow DMUs? Presumably the locos also had to be restricted height?

 

[30907]

So what was used prior to the narrow DMUs? Presumably the locos also had to be restricted height?

Probably LMS 57ft stock was OK, and very few locos were built to Mk 1 profile (original Merchant Navies perhaps?). Hadn't the service been DMU from an early date?

Had steam excursions run they would probably have finished at Sellafield to allow the loco to turn at Eskmeals, as happened later on.

 

[judethegreat]

Yes, BR did miss a trick with steam locos by not dieselising sooner!

Or rather electrifying

 

[Calthrop]

No, far, far too costly to keep the men and machines in trim for some odd workings at different times of the year. And this ignores the "branding" issue regarding steam - as others have pointed out, it was a rush, rush, rush to get rid of steam from c 1962, partly hard economics, partly (lack of) human resources and partly image.

However - I was up there in Lancashire for the last 12 days of steam - and I have always been amazed that it ended when it did, ie at the beginning of August, the height of the summer season, at a time when there were still many more seasonal holiday trains than there are today.

There were hundreds, if not well over a thousand, enthusiasts around every weekday as it was school hols, many with some sort of rover ticket (like myself, I had an LMR rover the first week, and a NW rover for the second), and many more at weekends.

I remember a tent, presumably for enthusiasts, pitched on the grounds of one shed - Rose Grove, I think!

And I have wondered if it would have made commercial sense to keep one depot open until the end of August, with a very limited number of turns - maybe Lostock Hall, with a daily trip Preston - Carlisle via the Cumbrian Coast and return (assuming the loco could be turned etc at Carlisle) during weekdays, and something different on weekends - maybe Preston - Carlisle via Hellifield and return.

These would not have been enthusiast specials - just regular summer extras, available at standard fares. There would have been hundreds of DAAs out - and provided the ticket inspectors were keen on it - they would have had to buy tickets, so it would have made economic sense to buy rovers.

And of course, the odd spare engine kept in steam would have been useful cover for diesel failures.

But it was not to be. The BRB were certainly keen on ridding themselves of steam. On August 2nd (the final weekday of normal steam) there must have been 35 - 40 steam turns from the three depots. Three days later, Monday August 5 - none whatsoever.

Re "until end of August" scenario mused on above: thoughts prompted, of Nicholas Whittaker's words in Platform Souls, concerning that summer: "If there had been any poets on the British Railways Board they might have let the lads enjoy one last glorious trainspotting summer, two more of those long hot months of [steam's, and trainspotting's -- especially the more juvenile thereof's -- delights]". Whittaker is focusing here on sentimentality, not on money-making possibilities; but the above post would seem to make good sense concerning practicalities, and some coining-in of cash; and one feels that tacking on September as well, would have had nothing like calamitous consequences for BR. It would seem that over the decades, a good many delightful lines which had to close; have done so w.e.f. the end of September -- feels like a civilised way to do this thing, if it has to be: "one last full glorious summer", etc.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jul 2023 ==

The loco crews would admire the office girls as they left the train, but few gave these grimy men on the footplate a second glance

The lasses perhaps quietly singing to themselves, the number from The Ballad of John Axon --

"Come all you young maidens, take a warning from me; Shun all engine drivers..." [their priorities are thoroughly wrong...]

 

[simonw]

I've often wondered given the popularity of heritage railways (especially when running steam locos) why BR didn't hold back a few of them and run steam train tours / specials after the end of steam in 1968. or did they?

I could imagine having two or three sheds on a part time basis to stable them in / clean out etc. These could have been used on bank holidays, school holidays, easter, and around Christmas.

The questions are:
Did BR even run steam specials after 1968? and if not - why not?
Would a small number of dedicated sheds run on a part time basis have been practical?
Could BR not see the potential?

I remember going on a steam special (probably around 1978) from Lancashire up to the Cumbrian coast. The train was packed but I've no idea who organised it. What I do remember was sticking my head out of the window many times only to eventually get a spec of grit / soot in one of my eyes!

Do you know if any country that did this? Maybe that answers your question.

In addition, few if any heritage lines cover their costs from fares.

 

[pdeaves]

Flying Scotsman hauled various special trains in autumn 1968, then spring and summer 1969, before sailing for the USA.

I believe Scotsman ran (preserved, of course, not BR stock) because of some contract set up before the 'no steam' policy and the tenacity of the then-owner.

 

[61058]

Do you know if any country that did this? Maybe that answers your question.

In addition, few if any heritage lines cover their costs from fares.

DR (East Germany) finished steam in 1987 but kept 50/60 locos in working order to work specials.

 

[John Webb]

I believe Scotsman ran (preserved, of course, not BR stock) because of some contract set up before the 'no steam' policy and the tenacity of the then-owner.

I understand that as part of the purchase agreement Alan Peglar retained the right to use the loco on the national network, but none of my books has the details, alas.

 

[neilmc]

The real crazy trick was continuing to built 9Fs right up until 1960 and then withdrawing them with maybe less than five years of service. If only there were an auditor who insisted that they were far from life-expired and should be kept in service for their intended lifespan or near enough i e. up until 1980 or so, where there was appropriate work. Thus there could have been 10-20 operational steam depots where crews who loved working with steam could have gravitated to, and a small fleet of operational passenger locos being kept alongside for enthusiast working.

I have this fantasy of the last working stem depots in the UK in the 1980s being swarmed over by Dutch, German, Japanese and American steam enthusiasts.

 

[Gloster]

The real crazy trick was continuing to built 9Fs right up until 1960 and then withdrawing them with maybe less than five years of service. If only there were an auditor who insisted that they were far from life-expired and should be kept in service for their intended lifespan or near enough i e. up until 1980 or so, where there was appropriate work. Thus there could have been 10-20 operational steam depots where crews who loved working with steam could have gravitated to, and a small fleet of operational passenger locos being kept alongside for enthusiast working.

I have this fantasy of the last working stem depots in the UK in the 1980s being swarmed over by Dutch, German, Japanese and American steam enthusiasts.

I do not think you would have got many drivers and firemen to move to another part of the country, or even county. Nor would you have got an massive influx of young enthusiasts to join the railway: it is one thing to drive a preserved tank at 25 mph on a branch line, quite another to fire a 9F on a lengthy loose-coupled mineral train with a booking on time of 02.48. And of course you still have lots of dirty depot jobs to fill.

 

[30907]

DR (East Germany) finished steam in 1987 but kept 50/60 locos in working order to work specials.

...and not only specials, there being an oil shortage AIUI, so turning out steam on a diesel diagram wasn't frowned on.

 

[Magdalia]

The real crazy trick was continuing to built 9Fs right up until 1960

The last 9Fs were ordered early in 1958. Only 3 locos were not delivered until 1960, with a further 15 delivered in 1959. Apart from those steam locomotive building ended in 1958.

In 1958 the BTC did not have a diesel locomotive with the freight hauling capability of the 9F. At the time it wasn't crazy to build a few more 9Fs, it just looks that way with the benefit of hindsight.

And if Swindon hadn't built 9Fs, the diesel locos they would have built instead would have been Warships, which didn't last a lot longer.

 

[181]

DR (East Germany) finished steam in 1987 but kept 50/60 locos in working order to work specials.

Poland did something similar a few years later -- as well as the depot at Wolsztyn I think there were some others with occasional special trains. Of course by then, steam locos were an attraction that brought in foreign visitors with more disposable income than the locals, although I don't know whether that had been thought of when the plans were first made.

Across the Atlantic, the Union Pacific retained a single locomotive (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Pacific_844).

The real crazy trick was continuing to built 9Fs right up until 1960 and then withdrawing them with maybe less than five years of service. If only there were an auditor who insisted that they were far from life-expired and should be kept in service for their intended lifespan or near enough i e. up until 1980 or so, where there was appropriate work. Thus there could have been 10-20 operational steam depots where crews who loved working with steam could have gravitated to, and a small fleet of operational passenger locos being kept alongside for enthusiast working.

I have this fantasy of the last working stem depots in the UK in the 1980s being swarmed over by Dutch, German, Japanese and American steam enthusiasts.

I do not think you would have got many drivers and firemen to move to another part of the country, or even county. Nor would you have got an massive influx of young enthusiasts to join the railway: it is one thing to drive a preserved tank at 25 mph on a branch line, quite another to fire a 9F on a lengthy loose-coupled mineral train with a booking on time of 02.48. And of course you still have lots of dirty depot jobs to fill.

Although it seems to me probably true that keeping several depots of 9Fs going until the 1980s was never going to happen, remember that prosperous West Germany continued using steam until 1977.

 

[QJ]

The Union Pacific Railroad in the US has two active steam locos on their roster for publicity purposes and the occasional use on public rail trips(for which they have retained a rake of 1950s coaching stock). They are based at Cheyenne WY.

I was fortunate to travel on part of a multi-day public excursion run by UP using their 4-6-6-4 Challenger (plus 3 helper E9 diesels) re-enacting the UP City of Los Angeles streamliner in May 1994 between Salt Lake City and Los Angeles via Las Vegas NV.

The Challenger has more recently been replaced on the active roster by a 4-8-8-4 Big Boy.

A shame BR didn’t retain a couple of 9Fs for a similar purpose (other locos were available) but that is the difference between a private Company spending their own money and BR being accused of squandering tax payers money.

 

[simonw]

DR (East Germany) finished steam in 1987 but kept 50/60 locos in working order to work specials.

My understanding ( which tallies with what I can find on the internet) is that East German steam ended in 1988.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jul 2023 ==

Poland did something similar a few years later -- as well as the depot at Wolsztyn I think there were some others with occasional special trains. Of course by then, steam locos were an attraction that brought in foreign visitors with more disposable income than the locals, although I don't know whether that had been thought of when the plans were first made.

Across the Atlantic, the Union Pacific retained a single locomotive (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Pacific_844).





Although it seems to me probably true that keeping several depots of 9Fs going until the 1980s was never going to happen, remember that prosperous West Germany continued using steam until 1977.

One reason steam ended in the UK earlier than places like West Germany was that we built diesel and electric locos and multiple units based on a size of network that was then rapidly reduced with rail closures. This left us with surplus stock that enabled the earlier than initially planned withdrawal of steam.

 

[Andy873]

Thanks everyone.

I knew this would be an interesting topic for lots of us.

One point, I think I read in the 1955 modernisation plan was that although steam was to be phased out in favour of diesel and electric motive power it did highlight a concern about oil supplies from abroad.

The point being that with steam traction we had a domestic supply but oil supplies were out of our hands, something the the oil crisis of the early 1970s showed.

Although it seems to me probably true that keeping several depots of 9Fs going until the 1980s was never going to happen, remember that prosperous West Germany continued using steam until 1977.

Probably a wise decision, with steam there was always a backup plan.

It's an interesting debate.