Are Stadler products overrated?

[Purple Train]

I have only sampled 745s, but:

1) Good window alignment
2) Very nice seating
3) Quiet
4) Lovely ride
5) Excellent performance

all outweigh the new-fangled level boarding for me, and all happen to be ticked boxes. I look forward to trying a 755.

Stadler seems notably more innovative than other manufacturers - certainly they seem like the most likely to engineer a solution for Gunnislake for instance.

 

[AdamWW]

Accessibility is important and these trains are transformative for people who previously had to rely on ramps and therefore platform staff being present, booking ahead etc., severely limiting their travel options.

Indeed and the able-bodied having to step up and down to pass through the trains is a small price to pay.

And of course it's not just helpful for people who would otherwise need assistance to board - it's also very useful for people with pushchairs, or who find stepping up and down possible but awkward and difficult.

Also Stadlers are fine trains in general. Maybe some room for improvement in some areas but no more so than any other stock.

And less so than a lot.

 

[bspahh]

My father-in-law needs to use a rollator aid for walking. The 755s have been a leap forward for him, to be able to board at any door, without help, and without causing a delay. It makes travelling much less stressful.

 

[YourMum666]

Stadler’s are as bad as 700s for me, same passenger experience. When it comes to seating, the best types of seats currently are the unrefurbed 390, Lumo 803 and class 91 mk4s

 

[ollyexe2808]

Interesting comments on here. Living in Devon and using 166/15x's on a daily basis, the Stadler units on the GA network feel like something completely superior. The level boarding isn't really something I personally pay attention to but I absolutely see it's benefit for wheelchairs/pushchairs etc. The big sell for me is their performance, acceleration, seating layout, spaciousness. Nothing down here in the West Country compares in my opinion (as a passenger). I really dislike the 150s down here and wish we had something so much better. The FLIRTs feel like progress, even if I think it is hyperbole to say they are the best on the network. They are certainly the best in their class IMO.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

"I don't personally need level boarding so I don't see it's value" is a pretty myopic, bordering on selfish, view.

No it isn’t. It’s him saying he doesn’t have an understanding based on experience, which I think is fair enough. At no point did he say it shouldn’t be there. Your comment is rather self-righteous.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jul 2023 ==

Stadler’s are as bad as 700s for me, same passenger experience. When it comes to seating, the best types of seats currently are the unrefurbed 390, Lumo 803 and class 91 mk4s

You absolutely cannot rightfully say this, as seating is entirely subjective. What you mean is, the best types of seats in your opinion, not the best types of seats full stop.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jul 2023 ==

Interesting comments on here. Living in Devon and using 166/15x's on a daily basis, the Stadler units on the GA network feel like something completely superior. The level boarding isn't really something I personally pay attention to but I absolutely see it's benefit for wheelchairs/pushchairs etc. The big sell for me is their performance, acceleration, seating layout, spaciousness. Nothing down here in the West Country compares in my opinion (as a passenger). I really dislike the 150s down here and wish we had something so much better.

But this is something that should be expected as standard with them being some thirty years newer, no?

 

[ge-gn]

Average punter here, and regular user. In answer to the original question; no!

After an initial bedding in time which was troublesome, they have been a step change in travel here in East Anglia. They are warm when it’s cold, cold when it’s hot, big airy coaches, comfortable seats, fast, quick boarding and unboarding, an increase in bike space, and yes that level boarding makes life easier. The 755 has a bit of ”rort“ for the enthusiast, the 745 is a great Intercity train With loads of seats, buffet, and first class if that’s your bag.

My only complaint… The standardisation has almost made travel boring! I loved the old loco hauled services, and I was fond of a 156, but let’s be frank, they had become unreliable. The unreliability provided interest.

Best new train in the uk in my opinion.

 

[Energy]

I only sampled a 745 once and found it awful. The ride was the worst I've experienced on a modern train and the whole up and down thing of the floor with steps etc everywhere I personally disliked. But by all accounts the merseyrail stuff isn't even in the same league as the east anglia stuff so doesn't bode well for Merseysiders.

Each to their own, I found the 755 great sat both above and between the bogeys though it was on different track. If the track is rough you will notice it more.

The up and down floor is a little strange at first but its not that big of a deal and worth it to have level boarding.

"I don't personally need level boarding so I don't see it's value" is a pretty myopic, bordering on selfish, view.

I read it more as a level boarding doesn't excuse a bad train.

You absolutely cannot rightfully say this, as seating is entirely subjective. What you mean is, the best types of seats in your opinion, not the best types of seats full stop.

Best seat will always be subjective but I haven't heard any complaints about the 755s seats and I found them comfortable.

But this is something that should be expected as standard with them being some thirty years newer, no?

My point of comparison is turbostars and 196s. The 755s certainly felt better built than the former, their doors work better than the latter and are the most comfortable out of the 3.

 

[Clarence Yard]

I have to declare an interest here is that I spec’d the 755 variety for a (losing) GA bid and a few years later, after a move into East Anglia, have found myself actually using the 755 units and hearing what the locals think of them.

They are really, really popular and, by my experience of other makes, the best “new” local train out there, by far. In a 755 the gangway floor is level from the front to back, with only the end bogies in the set (which are the t/m bogies) where you have to step up, although over the other unpowered bogies you have to step up from the level gangway itself into the seats.

The seating (with seat back tables) is far more comfortable for me than the rather spartan 700 seating I have to use from Cambridge into London and the mix of seating, cycle space, wheelchair space, level boarding, info displays and good loos all combine to produce a very pleasant passenger environment. The only thing I would say is that a single door won’t always work in a more suburban environment.

If I had my way, GWR would be getting a fleet of these. They really are a game changer for local lines.

 

[bramling]

I have only sampled 745s, but:

1) Good window alignment
2) Very nice seating
3) Quiet
4) Lovely ride
5) Excellent performance

all outweigh the new-fangled level boarding for me, and all happen to be ticked boxes. I look forward to trying a 755.

Stadler seems notably more innovative than other manufacturers - certainly they seem like the most likely to engineer a solution for Gunnislake for instance.

I’d say the GA and TfW units are fine, quite good if anything. There are a few niggles though, I’m not particularly sold on having the power unit in the middle of the train, it seems to just waste platform space at what’s normally the busiest part of the train. Also the changes in floor level I’m not keen on.

The Merseyrail units are awful, though that’s more down to what the operator has specified. Likewise the new Tyne & Wear units. It will be interesting to see how the latter are received. In both these cases Stadler don’t seem to be crowning themselves with glory in terms of handling the transition from old to new, which like it or not is an integral part of any new fleet introduction.

So in my view they’re okay. But personally I prefer something like a 165 or 170.

 

[Energy]

I have to declare an interest here is that I spec’d the 755 variety for a (losing) GA bid and a few years later, after a move into East Anglia, have found myself actually using the 755 units and hearing what the locals think of them.

Out of interest how does specifying rolling stock for a bid work? Is it coincidence that both Abellio/TG and your company's bid both had 755s?

There are a few niggles though, I’m not particularly sold on having the power unit in the middle of the train, it seems to just waste platform space at what’s normally the busiest part of the train.

East Anglia generally has rather long platforms due to the holiday trains that went there in the days of steam so platform wastage isn't too much of an issue. For intermediate stops there is always SDO.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

"I don't personally need level boarding so I don't see it's value" is a pretty myopic, bordering on selfish, view.

Accessibility is important and these trains are transformative for people who previously had to rely on ramps and therefore platform staff being present, booking ahead etc., severely limiting their travel options.

This to me is the most important part. I don't have mobility issues but have a sister who can't walk more than a few meters and personally, any assistance to her ability to use public transport is more important than anything else.

The comment calling you self-righteous was, frankly, ableist and completely out of order.

People seem to forget that people of reduced mobility travel use the network and their ability to travel as close to the rest of us is much more important than their "enjoyment" of a utilitarian system.

Trains aren't for fun, they are for transport and how good they are should not be based on what enthusiasts think, it should be based on how well they work for the majority of people.

 

[Purple Train]

No it isn’t. It’s him saying he doesn’t have an understanding based on experience, which I think is fair enough. At no point did he say it shouldn’t be there. Your comment is rather self-righteous.

I'm not sure which post you think the post you quote was aimed at, but I haven't read anything that fits your second sentence. I agree that the views condemned as "myopic" have not been in evidence, but I agree with the point - you shouldn't belittle level boarding as you do. And condemning @jfowkes's point as "self-righteous" is neither clever nor helpful. I don't consider it self-righteous to point out how level boarding takes a much bigger picture into account.

You absolutely cannot rightfully say this, as seating is entirely subjective. What you mean is, the best types of seats in your opinion, not the best types of seats full stop.

I would offer to help you off your high horse, but I don't have a stepladder.

You may disagree with the point, but petty pedantry adds nothing to the discussion. I found it obvious that he was expressing an opinion and I am pedantic enough to refuse to use disabled ticket gates.

My point of comparison is turbostars and 196s. The 755s certainly felt better built than the former, their doors work better than the latter and are the most comfortable out of the 3.

Agreed. They feel much less "cheap" as a passenger, considerably so compared to the 700s and noticeably so even compared to the 720s, 196s, and 345s.

 

[43096]

I think the question needs flipping in its head and ask why the OP has such a problem with them.

 

[Jim]

I have to declare an interest here is that I spec’d the 755 variety for a (losing) GA bid and a few years later, after a move into East Anglia, have found myself actually using the 755 units and hearing what the locals think of them.

They are really, really popular and, by my experience of other makes, the best “new” local train out there, by far. In a 755 the gangway floor is level from the front to back, with only the end bogies in the set (which are the t/m bogies) where you have to step up, although over the other unpowered bogies you have to step up from the level gangway itself into the seats.

The seating (with seat back tables) is far more comfortable for me than the rather spartan 700 seating I have to use from Cambridge into London and the mix of seating, cycle space, wheelchair space, level boarding, info displays and good loos all combine to produce a very pleasant passenger environment. The only thing I would say is that a single door won’t always work in a more suburban environment.

If I had my way, GWR would be getting a fleet of these. They really are a game changer for local lines.

Hear, hear

 

[RuddA]

I definitely prefer the level boarding and step when travelling with my young daughter. A lot better than having to carry her off or hope that she doesn't fall in the gap between train and platform.
I also prefer the interior to the few other modern trains I've been on.

 

[urbophile]

As a frequent Merseyrail passenger on the line which will be the last to receive 777s, I feel envious. Level boarding is of course a great advantage to mobility-impaired passengers, but also to the rest of us who don't have to wait while a staff member drags out a ramp and lets a wheelchair using passenger on or off. The time saved, even if only seconds at each stop, must mount up.

Having used the 777s a couple of times, I am impressed. I don't get the complaint about hard seats: yes they are not as well padded as some, and I'm not overly endowed with natural padding, but they are comfortable enough for a short journey. The windows are large, giving good views of the tunnel walls and rock-face cuttings, but also of fields and houses sometimes!

 

[irish_rail]

I have to declare an interest here is that I spec’d the 755 variety for a (losing) GA bid and a few years later, after a move into East Anglia, have found myself actually using the 755 units and hearing what the locals think of them.

They are really, really popular and, by my experience of other makes, the best “new” local train out there, by far. In a 755 the gangway floor is level from the front to back, with only the end bogies in the set (which are the t/m bogies) where you have to step up, although over the other unpowered bogies you have to step up from the level gangway itself into the seats.

The seating (with seat back tables) is far more comfortable for me than the rather spartan 700 seating I have to use from Cambridge into London and the mix of seating, cycle space, wheelchair space, level boarding, info displays and good loos all combine to produce a very pleasant passenger environment. The only thing I would say is that a single door won’t always work in a more suburban environment.

If I had my way, GWR would be getting a fleet of these. They really are a game changer for local lines.

The trouble is, if GWR do end up with them, I fear they would be at Merseyrail specification, not Great Anglia. Less money floating about now I imagine compared with when Anglia ordered its fleet.

 

[RailWonderer]

The FISA lean seat gets a lot softer when worn in. On the GA Stadlers when new they did feel hard but now feel incredibly soft (though not spongy soft like early 2000s Lazzerini seating and Pendolino/458 Alstom type seating). The GA versions have carpets unlike the TfW versions so have a nicer ambience and wood plated end coaches unlike the white metal of the TfW Stadlers. The GA Stadlers in comparison also have a darker grey panelling but put that aisde and both have great window alignment, legroom, ride quality (the best undisputedly of any recent new build train) and ultimately, level boarding.

If they are average than god help you and tell me what a very good train is and what makes it superior to a Stadler (especially a 745/755).

 

[trebor79]

Yep, the Greater Anglia 755 would be perfect for GWR regional services. Could also be good replacements for XC 170s, perhaps in a 6 car version.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What's wrong with 755s? They're superb local and regional trains IMO. Comfortable, airy, quiet (away from the thrash pod). Nice big windows. They're great.

I strongly like 755s. I strongly dislike 777s. This is entirely down to the interior fitout; while one is FLIRT and the other METRO they use common body panels etc so that's not significant.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jul 2023 ==

Stadler’s are as bad as 700s for me, same passenger experience. When it comes to seating, the best types of seats currently are the unrefurbed 390, Lumo 803 and class 91 mk4s

Lumo seats are exactly the same as refurb 390s other than the reading light. And there's no reason you could not fit those seats to a FLIRT.

Level boarding is important. Just make it legally required and all the manufacturers will quickly offer it. Stadler don't have a patent on it (though they probably do have some specific ones on e.g. the exact design of step they use).

 

[Clarence Yard]

The trouble is, if GWR do end up with them, I fear they would be at Merseyrail specification, not Great Anglia. Less money floating about now I imagine compared with when Anglia ordered its fleet.

The GA/TfW ones are fairly “standard” FLIRT local train spec - completely different to the Merseyrail ones, which are definitely to the Stadler metro standard.

For me, CAF 19x units don’t come close to the Stadler 755 product. Once you have sampled both, you really notice the difference.

 

[irish_rail]

The GA/TfW ones are fairly “standard” FLIRT local train spec - completely different to the Merseyrail ones, which are definitely to the Stadler metro standard.

For me, CAF 19x units don’t come close to the Stadler 755 product. Once you have sampled both, you really notice the difference.

I did travel on a 195, and actually quite liked it. I guess everyone is different. Will be interesting to see what happens in coming few years on the Western Region......

 

[Thirteen]

I think it's a bit concerning that there people who are rail enthusiast or work in the industry who do not think level boarding is a good thing. Surely people with disability or mobility issues should have the same right to use trains as those who are more able.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it's a bit concerning that there people who are rail enthusiast or work in the industry who do not think level boarding is a good thing. Surely people with disability or mobility issues should have the same right to use trains as those who are more able.

It simply needs to become a legal requirement.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jul 2023 ==

I did travel on a 195, and actually quite liked it. I guess everyone is different. Will be interesting to see what happens in coming few years on the Western Region......

CAF units highlight my point about interiors being what makes or breaks a unit, with level boarding not being a negative as some are claiming, rather just a feature of the metal tube in which the interior goes. Four classes of unit (if you include 397s), four totally different interiors.

 

[DanNCL]

I've only ever been impressed by the Stadler products I've sampled, both in the UK and abroad.

I'm obviously yet to sample one myself but have heard from others who have (as part of the testing program) that the 555s are solid pieces of kit too.

That the seating is horrendous, and the trains do not get you from A to B without breaking down. Rather more important than level boarding don't you think?

Seating is entirely down to the customer. Merseyrail would have had the exact same seats if they'd instead ordered Aventras without level boarding. There's no correlation whatsoever between the reduction in seat quality and the provision of level boarding.

But this is something that should be expected as standard with them being some thirty years newer, no?

As is level boarding! Full step free access has been compulsory on all buses in the UK, including older vehicles, since 2017. There's no reason why it shouldn't also be compulsory for trains.

It simply needs to become a legal requirement.

Agreed.