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The problem with Stadler’s products is, people - train enthusiasts specifically - become so impressed (blinded) by the level boarding that they then just automatically deem the train a great success, even when the train itself is otherwise really rather average. See 755.
A bunch of 231s failed today, and they’re often having to be swapped, but people continue to praise them endlessly, say they should be on Manchesters instead of 197s and all that rubbish, etc.
The problem with Stadler’s products is, people - train enthusiasts specifically - become so impressed (blinded) by the level boarding that they then just automatically deem the train a great success, even when the train itself is otherwise really rather average. See 755.
These have steps, and people are more critical. A bunch of 231s failed today, and they’re often having to be swapped, but people continue to praise them endlessly, say they should be on Manchesters instead of 197s and all that rubbish, etc.
Still hoping for an update on these on the Wirral soon.
As I say, blinded by the level boarding. If you took it away, I guarantee you people would stop parroting the exhausting phrase “These trains should be the new standard for UK Rolling Stock.”
As I say, blinded by the level boarding. If you took it away, I guarantee you people would stop parroting the exhausting phrase “These trains should be the new standard for UK Rolling Stock.”
Level boarding should be the standard. All manufacturers offer it for the European mainland, so I'm sure would soon offer it for the UK if it became legally mandatory, as it should.
My (negative) views on the 777 despite liking Stadler kit generally are however well known.
Level boarding should be the standard. All manufacturers offer it for the European mainland, so I'm sure would soon offer it for the UK if it became legally mandatory, as it should.
My (negative) views on the 777 despite liking Stadler kit generally are however well known.
But on a list of things I want on a new train, decent seating , toilets, windows that line up with seating and many other things all rank well above level boarding. I get that it is a desirable thing to have , I just don't think its the most important feature of a new train.
But on a list of things I want on a new train, decent seating , toilets, windows that line up with seating and many other things all rank well above level boarding. I get that it is a desirable thing to have , I just don't think its the most important feature of a new train.
Completely agree with you. I also think this is another reason why people praise the SBB Girunos despite them having, in my opinion, a considerable downgrade in interior from the New Pendolinos. The Girunos I think look more like a Regional train.
Level boarding should be the standard. All manufacturers offer it for the European mainland, so I'm sure would soon offer it for the UK if it became legally mandatory, as it should.
My (negative) views on the 777 despite liking Stadler kit generally are however well known.
Well it is so much easier in Europe where there is no high platform cutting into the loading gauge at low level and there is space at the top to do a second deck or put the engines\electrical gear.
The other thing that seems to be forgotten is there have still been platform works required in East Anglia and on Merseyrail to match the platforms to the train.
Every time I've used the 755's they've been a really pleasant rise. As said they've transformative against what we had before and the level boarding is helpful to so many people whether those in wheelchairs or with other mobility issues, those with pushchairs and of course those with bikes. It must help sticking to timetable not needing to deploy ramps - and that helps everyone.
Every time I've used the 755's they've been a really pleasant rise. As said they've transformative against what we had before and the level boarding is helpful to so many people whether those in wheelchairs or with other mobility issues, those with pushchairs and of course those with bikes. It must help sticking to timetable not needing to deploy ramps - and that helps everyone.
My only experience of them is in GA land but no, absolutely not.
The seats are comfortable, the windows are huge, the design makes for a large airy interior, the lighting is nice, they are very smooth and comfortable, toilets are nice. They also look almost new after a few years too. I did see a PIS out the other day that hopefully gets picked up at next maintenance.
In comparison to other modern UK fleets they're miles ahead (can think of several other newish fleets that rattle, shake and show obvious wear after a couple of years), there really is no comparison to the junk they replaced.
Never mind what enthuiasts think, just listen to your average passenger. Talking to a Norwich taxi driver he said it was noticeable how many of his clients commented and were impressed with the new trains.
I agree completely. I think the Stadler bimodes are better than any other bimodes because they are more suitable for regional work and the passenger vehicle don’t have underfloor engines. The performance is far superior to a sprinter. I don’t understand where three car sets were included though.
Stadler are a far more flexible manufacturer than the big boys, and have an adaptable train platform for many applications, particularly regional/metro.
That's the reason why they are rapidly expanding their customer base, including the UK.
Swiss product quality also impresses, although Stadler uses manufacturing plants in Poland and Hungary as well as Switzerland.
They don't have a UK manufacturing base though, and like the other majors it uses third-party suppliers for many components (eg traction package).
I agree completely. I think the Stadler bimodes are better than any other bimodes because they are more suitable for regional work and the passenger vehicle don’t have underfloor engines. The performance is far superior to a sprinter. I don’t understand where three car sets were included though.
But on a list of things I want on a new train, decent seating , toilets, windows that line up with seating and many other things all rank well above level boarding. I get that it is a desirable thing to have , I just don't think its the most important feature of a new train.
It's not either or. A train is a metal tube, you can put any interior in it. Witness the Spartan lack of comfort of the 777 as against the very nice Greater Anglia units.
I come from Switzerland, so probably not completely impartial. I was on vacation a lot by train, the Stadler trains were in contrast to other vehicles a clear improvement. Compared to older vehicles even a quantum leap.
From my point of view, stepless entry is no longer a nice to have, but a must. The interior design was also convincing, and they are also quiet.
The performance of the units is very impressive too. Finally, a vehicle that doesn't feel like a shifting sand dune. I'm talking to you Class 15x... More what I'm used to from home.
I hope they are as pleasant to drive as they are for us. Compared to Siemens and Bombardier, they are "simpler" in design for the driver. The controls feel more direct, less latency between input and response.
However, Stadler has already impressed me with their numerous special solutions for narrow gauge railroads, they have come up with some really interesting and unusual solutions.
It's not either or. A train is a metal tube, you can put any interior in it. Witness the Spartan lack of comfort of the 777 as against the very nice Greater Anglia units.
But on a list of things I want on a new train, decent seating , toilets, windows that line up with seating and many other things all rank well above level boarding. I get that it is a desirable thing to have , I just don't think its the most important feature of a new train.
Windows lining up with seats is more important than being able to easily get on and off? I would have thought actual access to a train is fundamental: I regularly see people struggling with steps, and less mobile people getting to the doors before their stops because they are concerned about it.
As others have said, level access should be universal and ideally have a deadline for provision, like the previous PRM regulations
Windows lining up with seats is more important than being able to easily get on and off? I would have thought actual access to a train is fundamental: I regularly see people struggling with steps, and less mobile people getting to the doors before their stops because they are concerned about it.
As others have said, level access should be universal and ideally have a deadline for provision, like the previous PRM regulations
Never mind what enthuiasts think, just listen to your average passenger. Talking to a Norwich taxi driver he said it was noticeable how many of his clients commented and were impressed with the new trains.
The problem with Stadler’s products is, people - train enthusiasts specifically - become so impressed (blinded) by the level boarding that they then just automatically deem the train a great success, even when the train itself is otherwise really rather average. See 755.
A bunch of 231s failed today, and they’re often having to be swapped, but people continue to praise them endlessly, say they should be on Manchesters instead of 197s and all that rubbish, etc.
What's wrong with 755s? They're superb local and regional trains IMO. Comfortable, airy, quiet (away from the thrash pod). Nice big windows. They're great.
Am yet to use the new trains in Cardiff, but level boarding is so much better. Taking the Stansted express (720 out and 745 back) the ride whole experience was so much better. Yes the 720 to Stansted lacked tables, but the one coming back had tables and would have been ideal for every journey I normally make. Not thinking we are going to get anything like the 745s on the Marches, but a similar product would be great.
I like the 80x on GWR, but again if there was a 745 (bi-mode because we don't have wires) between Swansea and London that would be an improvement.
That the seating is horrendous, and the trains do not get you from A to B without breaking down. Rather more important than level boarding don't you think?
I'd consider the 755 well above average, great performance and great interior. Its also one of the few trains that I've heard the general public be immediately impressed when they step on board.
That the seating is horrendous, and the trains do not get you from A to B without breaking down. Rather more important than level boarding don't you think?
The seating isn't Stadlers decision. They do (or did around introduction) have reliability issues, though without statistics to point to I won't judge it too much yet.
There are of course the delays into service, whether these are Stadler or Merseyrail is a bit of a blurred line.
But on a list of things I want on a new train, decent seating , toilets, windows that line up with seating and many other things all rank well above level boarding. I get that it is a desirable thing to have , I just don't think its the most important feature of a new train.
bunch of 231s failed today, and they’re often having to be swapped, but people continue to praise them endlessly, say they should be on Manchesters instead of 197s and all that rubbish, etc.
I'd agree with that, over in TfW they do seem to be having issues. Hopefully they settle down like the 755s did. I think people are less quick to criticise Stadlers poor out of the box reliability than other manufacturers.
I'd consider the 755 well above average, great performance and great interior. Its also one of the few trains that I've heard the general public be immediately impressed when they step on board.
The seating isn't Stadlers decision. They do (or did around introduction) have reliability issues, though without statistics to point to I won't judge it too much yet.
There are of course the delays into service, whether these are Stadler or Merseyrail is a bit of a blurred line.
Different trains, and compliments on the 755s regularly come from non enthusiasts.
And on which of those does the 755 fail? If it was a shocking interior then it would be dissapointing but the whole 755 train is great.
I'd agree with that, over in TfW they do seem to be having issues. Hopefully they settle down like the 755s did. I think people are less quick to criticise Stadlers poor out of the box reliability than other manufacturers.
I only sampled a 745 once and found it awful. The ride was the worst I've experienced on a modern train and the whole up and down thing of the floor with steps etc everywhere I personally disliked. But by all accounts the merseyrail stuff isn't even in the same league as the east anglia stuff so doesn't bode well for Merseysiders.
But on a list of things I want on a new train, decent seating , toilets, windows that line up with seating and many other things all rank well above level boarding. I get that it is a desirable thing to have , I just don't think its the most important feature of a new train.
The problem with Stadler’s products is, people - train enthusiasts specifically - become so impressed (blinded) by the level boarding that they then just automatically deem the train a great success, even when the train itself is otherwise really rather average. See 755.
A bunch of 231s failed today, and they’re often having to be swapped, but people continue to praise them endlessly, say they should be on Manchesters instead of 197s and all that rubbish, etc.
I agree that the 231s don't (yet?) seem to be as reliable as they might be (I thought the Anglia FLIRTs were doing OK), but otherwise aside from the level boarding they seem quite a long way above average for the UK to me.
For me personally the level boarding is a nuisance - I don't need it and it means delays while the ramps come out. I appreciate though that it's great for some people and I think it's what the industry should be aiming for.
But aside from that, I'd love it if a DMU where I don't have to listen to the engine under the floor, with lots of seats round tables and lining up with nice big windows actually was just average for the UK. It really isn't though. I think they are impressive trains and would still think that if they were high floor.
I would very happily travel on one from Cardiff to Manchester, though I haven't tried a 197 so I don't know how they compare (looking at them from outside though, they don't seem to do very well at the windows lining up thing).
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I only sampled a 745 once and found it awful. The ride was the worst I've experienced on a modern train and the whole up and down thing of the floor with steps etc everywhere I personally disliked.
That the seating is horrendous, and the trains do not get you from A to B without breaking down. Rather more important than level boarding don't you think?
The other thing that seems to be forgotten is there have still been platform works required in East Anglia and on Merseyrail to match the platforms to the train.
Slightly disingenuous as the platforms were adjusted to align them to the NR standard height and offset! Newer stations and newer underground platforms didn’t need adjusting for example, though given big chunks of Merseyrail date back to the 1850s it’s understandable many needed a significant amount of work.
If the standard was actually adhered to during construction and maintenance across the network then the Stadlers would be able to deliver level boarding at every station without any gauge issues.
Although I haven’t travelled on any Stadler-built trains in the UK, I regularly use FLIRTs on Sorlands Bannen in Norway and they are excellent, even after around nine or ten years in service they still feel like new and are free of squeaks, scuffs and rattles.
Having said that, I wouldn’t say that they are any noticeably better than the Desiros on my local UK South Western routes.
"I don't personally need level boarding so I don't see it's value" is a pretty myopic, bordering on selfish, view.
Accessibility is important and these trains are transformative for people who previously had to rely on ramps and therefore platform staff being present, booking ahead etc., severely limiting their travel options.
One day in the future you and I might need level boarding and I hope that if that happens it has become the standard for UK trains.
Also Stadlers are fine trains in general. Maybe some room for improvement in some areas but no more so than any other stock.
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