TFW To Shake Up Rail Timetables

[Furryanimal]

When reviewing this timetable it would be nice if we passengers on the Marches line had a train that allowed us to get home without utilizing taxis after concerts etc in Cardiff(I'm not on about the big stadium ones for which extra services are provided).
i've been on about this for years.
If I lived along the Ebbw Vale line,stations to Cheltenham or Bristol....no problem.
But I live in Cwmbran so it's a £12 taxi from Newport or hang around Cardiff until 0030!
(Although Stagecoach are about to start a 2345 Newport to Cwmbran service.If this bus ,that I expect to run empty most nights,survives, it does rather solve that problem).

The other evening when returning from Worcester my connection in Hereford was cancelled because of lack of train crew.
I'm convinced this wasn't in the list of cancellations I studied in the morning-but I could have missed it.
But I noted the trains to /from Hereford were reasonably loaded.Rather like before Covid.
And I've been on some that have been absolutely rammed.....so I can believe the Marches line remains profitable.

 

[anthony263]

Wyats needed is Welsh government and TFW to get a kick up the backsides and actually listen to what staff and passengers are telling them.

I could see the Cardiff to Liverpool being one service they decide to drop. Not much else they could cut back on without major losses of customers. Hourly swanline is still needed as is a 2tph stopping service between Bridgend and Cardiff Central. Swanline serving the likes of Pencoed etc could help relieve the Maesteg services

 

[Dai Corner]

I haven't watched it myself yet, but here's the video recording of the 90 minute session. I guess a transcript will be published as well?

Parliamentlive.tv

Welsh Affairs Committee

parliamentlive.tv

 

[Caaardiff]

People are fed up of overcrowding on Marches and North Wales services, which has almost definitely lost passengers. Even then, many services are full and standing throughout the day, especially Friday through to Monday. These services need to be a minimum of 3 cars, comfortably a 4 car.
And that's what TFW can't see to grasp. A reliable Marches Mk4 or 3-4 car 175/197 service would eventually start to bring people back to trusting in the route, provided they can quite simply get a seat and arrive on time. That in turn will increase revenue, not only in tickets but hopefully in First upgrades and on board refreshment sales.
Cramming people into 2 car 150's not only means an uncomfortable journey for most, but also delays and losing time on the route, which many times means terminating early. On top of that you have lost revenue from no refreshments being sold as well as delay repay claims.

That's something that hasn't been discussed at great length. With the number of delays and cancellations at an all time high, it would be interesting to know what TFW are paying in Delay Repay payments.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's a big market for leisure travel to be won over on a network like TfW's, more so than many other TOCs - so long as a decent reliable service can be provided.

Yes, this. It needs to be reliable and have enough capacity for everyone to have a seat and for all the luggage (and on services like the North Wales Coast there'll be plenty of that) before they start adding extra services in only to run them with a 2-car unit.

There is no place for single 2-car units on the mainline services. If avoiding that means delaying the service upgrades or abandoning them entirely, that's the right thing to do. It is better to have a usable hourly service than an unreliable half hourly one on which you never get a seat.

 

[Caaardiff]

When reviewing this timetable it would be nice if we passengers on the Marches line had a train that allowed us to get home without utilizing taxis after concerts etc in Cardiff(I'm not on about the big stadium ones for which extra services are provided).
i've been on about this for years.
If I lived along the Ebbw Vale line,stations to Cheltenham or Bristol....no problem.
But I live in Cwmbran so it's a £12 taxi from Newport or hang around Cardiff until 0030!
(Although Stagecoach are about to start a 2345 Newport to Cwmbran service.If this bus ,that I expect to run empty most nights,survives, it does rather solve that problem).

The other evening when returning from Worcester my connection in Hereford was cancelled because of lack of train crew.
I'm convinced this wasn't in the list of cancellations I studied in the morning-but I could have missed it.
But I noted the trains to /from Hereford were reasonably loaded.Rather like before Covid.
And I've been on some that have been absolutely rammed.....so I can believe the Marches line remains profitable.

The issue there more revolves around train crew. Additional services after concerts which don't usually run at normal times are difficult to crew. So either TFW have them as regular services in the main timetable which 95% run around empty, or continue to rely on overtime to cover extra services.
I certainly agree that TFW review their after-event plans if Cardiff is truly to promote itself as a city that can cope with big events.
The same can be said for Chester and Wrexham now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wyats needed is Welsh government and TFW to get a kick up the backsides and actually listen to what staff and passengers are telling them.

I could see the Cardiff to Liverpool being one service they decide to drop. Not much else they could cut back on without major losses of customers. Hourly swanline is still needed as is a 2tph stopping service between Bridgend and Cardiff Central. Swanline serving the likes of Pencoed etc could help relieve the Maesteg services

Not adding services that have never existed is probably the least political way of reducing what they run, because nobody can object to losing a service that never existed.

 

[Dai Corner]

December 2023 timetable and service update

We know that lots of things have changed in recent years but our ambition to build a railway that meets the needs of current and future generations remains constant. Our railway is critical to making sustainable transport the easiest way for people to travel across Wales and its borders.

news.tfw.wales

We are pleased to confirm that the hourly Chester to Liverpool service, which was withdrawn during Covid-19, will be restored from December. This is one of the last few services that had been removed during Covid which has now been restored. Despite this positive news, there are other additional services, which we won’t be able to introduce as planned.

The additional services we will not be introducing in the December 2023 timetable change include:

• Cardiff to Cheltenham Spa enhancement to 1tph
• 1tph Manchester Airport - Llandudno service diverts to Bangor & 1tph Liverpool Lime St - Chester extended to Llandudno

 

[Cardiff123]

I've mentioned this in one of the earlier Wales specific threads, but a simple timetable change would be for the Cardiff - Holyhead to be broken at Chester, and for the Holyhead - Chester section to run to and from Crewe taking over the shuttle.

On my previous visits to Wales, my observations (albeit unscientific) were as follows:

1) North Wales - I have never met any fellow passengers who are travelling to Cardiff, but to North West Region, Yorkshire, West Midlands, and London.
2) Aberystwyth/Pwllheli - I have never met any fellow passengers who are travelling to Cardiff or Holyhead, but to North West Region, Yorkshire, West Midlands, and London.
3) South/West Wales - I have never met any fellow passengers who are travelling to Holyhead, but to Somerset, West Midlands Region, Wiltshire, Berkshire, and London.

Holyhead - Cardiff is much shorter by road, as it runs diagonally.

Splitting North - South Wales services, especially Cardiff to Holyhead, is just not going to happen, period. Regardless of whether it makes operational sense, if you think TfW will even consider splitting south Wales/Cardiff to Holyhead services, you clearly don't understand the politics of the railway in Wales.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Splitting North - South Wales services, especially Cardiff to Holyhead, is just not going to happen, period. Regardless of whether it makes operational sense, if you think TfW will even consider splitting south Wales/Cardiff to Holyhead services, you clearly don't understand the politics of the railway in Wales.

I completely agree. Holyhead to Cardiff makes little sense in terms of actual travel demand, which is typically North Wales-Liverpool, Manchester, Chester and London, mid Wales-Shrewsbury, Birmingham and London, and South Wales-Cardiff, Bristol and London. However, politics dictate that Cardiff must be prioritised. The only way to offer a direct Crewe would be to portion-work it - but that does have operational risk if they can't keep things punctual even without it, so is unlikely, plus it wouldn't be possible with Mk4 sets.

 

[DelW]

And that's what TFW can't see to grasp. A reliable Marches Mk4 or 3-4 car 175/197 service would eventually start to bring people back to trusting in the route, provided they can quite simply get a seat and arrive on time. That in turn will increase revenue, not only in tickets but hopefully in First upgrades and on board refreshment sales.
Cramming people into 2 car 150's not only means an uncomfortable journey for most, but also delays and losing time on the route, which many times means terminating early. On top of that you have lost revenue from no refreshments being sold as well as delay repay claims.

I don't think it's that TfW haven't understood that, but for various reasons, the poor recent reliability of the 175s and mk4s has torpedoed their intentions.

One benefit that might come from a thorough timetable review would be better integration of rail and Traws Cymru bus services, especially at key locations like Llandrindod, Newtown and Betws y Coed. At present it often seems that the timetables are drawn up in isolation from each other.

If that came with through ticketing, it might go some way towards making the Traws Cymru network work as a replacement for lines lost in the 1960s, and reduce the demand for improbable and unaffordable reopenings.

 

[markymark2000]

I don't think it's that TfW haven't understood that, but for various reasons, the poor recent reliability of the 175s and mk4s has torpedoed their intentions.

One benefit that might come from a thorough timetable review would be better integration of rail and Traws Cymru bus services, especially at key locations like Llandrindod, Newtown and Betws y Coed. At present it often seems that the timetables are drawn up in isolation from each other.

Newtown the rail station is a 10 minute walk from the bus station so that's a bit useless. Betws-Y-Coed, who is going to sit around waiting for a Conwy Valley service when instead they can go to Bangor and get the S2 running hourly from almost outside Bangor Station to Pen-Y-Pass? Conwy Valley is too infrequent and prone to too many delays to be worthwhile having tickets onto local buses. Llandrindod, your issue is you can't time the trains around the buses and buses should be there to serve local needs along the route (The T4 and 461/462 serve schools/colleges as well as peak times in different towns). To properly link up buses and trains means you please people who want the integration but upset everyone who now has to wait an hour after they finish work for a bus and their journey now takes 15 minutes longer as the bus sits around at Llandrindod waiting for connections to be made. Yippee, kill off your regulars in favour of occasional travellers, thats the way to do public transport in rural areas.

If that came with through ticketing, it might go some way towards making the Traws Cymru network work as a replacement for lines lost in the 1960s, and reduce the demand for improbable and unaffordable reopenings.

Through ticketing is already on the T1 and T5. I think through ticketing is meant to be being explored on T2 when the new contract is awarded. All that said, it's no good when TFW don't put these buses into the national ticketing system, they just have it in their own ticketing system. Most train operators don't sell tickets to Lampeter or Aberaeron. GWR only seem to sell the tickets for the T1 linking to Carmarthen, nothing showing if you put in for a journey via Aberystwyth. As TrainSplit wonderfully demonstrates though as well, it can be cheaper to split the tickets without having the through bus and train ticket. The issue with TFW is that they have all the gear but no idea so the chance of any proper cross ticketing is a long way off. I mean, they had the T19 which duplicated the Conwy Valley Line and they had cross ticket acceptance. It was nowhere on railway systems though, you had to be in the know.

 

[Jez]

Its not surprising the Marches route is profitable, its always very busy. And I've noticed advance tickets are very expensive now compared to what they were. Its almost more beneficial to buy the standard off peak return as at least you have more flexibility and there is barely much difference in price to 2 x advance singles at some times.

Swanline definitely needs some service improvements. Its good we have the 2 hourly service back however it needs to be more reliable. Often services are removed from the timetable due to 'more trains than usual needing repairs' etc.

Its interesting they mention Cheltenham and Manchester-Bangor specifically but no mention of the other planned improvements from December like Swanline.

 

[anthony263]

Its not surprising the Marches route is profitable, its always very busy. And I've noticed advance tickets are very expensive now compared to what they were. Its almost more beneficial to buy the standard off peak return as at least you have more flexibility and there is barely much difference in price to 2 x advance singles at some times.

Swanline definitely needs some service improvements. Its good we have the 2 hourly service back however it needs to be more reliable. Often services are removed from the timetable due to 'more trains than usual needing repairs' etc.

Its interesting they mention Cheltenham and Manchester-Bangor specifically but no mention of the other planned improvements from December like Swanline.

Could be we might see the hourly service thenn

 

[Envoy]

Media Wales report on James Price at Westminster:>

The man responsible for trains in Wales admits their biggest mistake

He said there had been a 'whole host of issues' with the new fleet of trains

www.walesonline.co.uk

"The chief executive of Transport for Wales has spoken candidly about the difficulties the organisation has faced and admitted what he regards as its "biggest failure". Welsh transport body boss James Price was speaking as MPs in Westminster grilled him on the work being done to overhaul much of the nation's train network and introducing new rolling stock".

 

[markymark2000]

Media Wales report on James Price at Westminster:>

The man responsible for trains in Wales admits their biggest mistake

He said there had been a 'whole host of issues' with the new fleet of trains

www.walesonline.co.uk

I like that he says that 'standard of the replacement buses isn't what it should be'. Well I know that staff on the ground have been telling TFW and people on the phone (whoever that may be) what needs doing since the project started as I have heard them saying it. The issue is that those who have the power to make the changes seem to have their fingers in their ears and are singing 'la la la la'. The blocks could be significantly better and I have heard what many of the staff on the ground have been saying and it's all very valid points but based off the feedback that I have heard and the changes that I see being made, no listens to those on the ground. It sounds very much like whenever ground staff have got things under control, a TFW manager turns up, messes it all up somehow and then goes away leaving ground staff to deal with the fall out. Whenever ground staff ask for support, they get nothing, whenever they don't want help and need leaving alone, they get shed loads of support and oversight. It makes no sense whatsoever.

I know that one of the issues which comes up is when there is a full line closure, TFW seem to think that there are hundreds of buses lying around not being used and they can just call upon them to run all of the core valley lines. They don't seem to understand PSVAR or the shortage of buses or drivers. I know that at least 2 coach companies seem to keep turning up with buses significantly smaller than what was requested, much to the dismay of ground controllers. This has been going on for well over a year but they are firms who have buses and drivers, without them, there wouldn't be any buses left and the firms know that so they don't care. Many local firms are too 'family' firms and don't want rail replacement with the very early/lates which are offered. Many don't have PSVAR vehicles and have no need to invest in them because Wales school routes (which is what makes up 90% of bus/coach companies work) don't need to be PSVAR. There aren't many firms anymore with service buses. Some who have done rail have since stopped it and no one new is coming in to replace them. Lack of buses/drivers locally means moving further away to find operators and with the work being a few days here, few days there, no firm from too far away can justify sending buses down to Cardiff. The few firms who have availability are Birmingham firms and many drivers in the area tend to want to use sat navs rather than route learn and so they get stuck easily and not helped when TFW change stops on a weekly basis in some cases (like Treforrest moved, and probably still is moving, multiple times).

What was needed was Barmouth style big blockade. Shut the lines down but instead TFW insisted on teasing trains all of the time. I remember a few months back I did a calendar of the works which meant TFW were proposing to reopen lines for 1 or 2 days for trains then go back to buses. It's stuff like that which makes the buses a mess as no one. Staff nor passengers, know whether they are coming or going. The failure lies with James Price and senior management. Poorly planned, no care given towards passengers, not listening to those who know what they are doing.

I could go on all week.

 

[Jez]

I haven't watched it myself yet, but here's the video recording of the 90 minute session. I guess a transcript will be published as well?

Parliamentlive.tv

Welsh Affairs Committee

parliamentlive.tv

Interesting that James Price mentioned they are hoping for September to introduce the CAF units onto Milford Haven-Manchester but if they can bring it forward to August they will. Work has been done at Clarbeston Road the last 2 weekends to do with route clearing them etc.

As for the timetable changes nothing mentioned about Swanline just that some but not all of the planned changes for December wont go ahead. Guess we have to just watch this space.

 

[DelW]

Newtown the rail station is a 10 minute walk from the bus station so that's a bit useless. Betws-Y-Coed, who is going to sit around waiting for a Conwy Valley service when instead they can go to Bangor and get the S2 running hourly from almost outside Bangor Station to Pen-Y-Pass? Conwy Valley is too infrequent and prone to too many delays to be worthwhile having tickets onto local buses. Llandrindod, your issue is you can't time the trains around the buses and buses should be there to serve local needs along the route (The T4 and 461/462 serve schools/colleges as well as peak times in different towns). To properly link up buses and trains means you please people who want the integration but upset everyone who now has to wait an hour after they finish work for a bus and their journey now takes 15 minutes longer as the bus sits around at Llandrindod waiting for connections to be made. Yippee, kill off your regulars in favour of occasional travellers, thats the way to do public transport in rural areas.

I was suggesting that a full timetable review should allow for investigating whether the routes could be better integrated than they are now. Part of that would be evaluating what journeys could benefit against those adversely affected.

At Newtown, there are bus stops closer to the rail station than the bus station is. I have made what used to be a nominal 7 minute connection between bus and train, but it was annoying to have to run when I'd been kicking my heels for an hour and a quarter between train and bus at Llandrindod. That was on the old timetable where the HoWL and Cambrian just failed to connect at Shrewsbury, on the current timetable they connect so I'd go that way rather than using the bus link. But the principle is wider than the examples I suggested.

 

[allaction]

I wonder if TfW really will cut more than a handful of train services?

Don’t forget that - unlike the TOCs in England - they are hand in hand with the (Welsh) Government, and the majority of people in Wales, whether rail travellers or not, see TfW as a straightforward part of the WG.

Will any politician in power at the Senedd want to be associated with cuts in services, whether transport, health or education? Of course not! That‘s the sort of dastardly thing they do in Westminster.

So cuts, if applied, are likely to be minimal.

With the scale of the problems he’s overseeing as CEO of TfW, I wonder if James Price ever wishes he was back working on the Circuit of Wales project?!

 

[Dai Corner]

wonder if TfW really will cut more than a handful of train services?

Don’t forget that - unlike the TOCs in England - they are hand in hand with the (Welsh) Government, and the majority of people in Wales, whether rail travellers or not, see TfW as a straightforward part of the WG.

Will any politician in power at the Senedd want to be associated with cuts in services, whether transport, health or education? Of course not! That‘s the sort of dastardly thing they do in Westminster.

So cuts, if applied, are likely to be minimal.

As I understand it, it's about cancelling previously announced enhancements rather than cutting existing services.

With the scale of the problems he’s overseeing as CEO of TfW, I wonder if James Price ever wishes he was back working on the Circuit of Wales project?!

IIRC he was put in charge of TfW after failing on the Circuit of Wales project, which was more about extracting money from the Welsh Government than building a racetrack.

 

[Topological]

I like the way they talk about the Marches as if it was not a TfW decision to (a) use the same depot for the 197s so the 175s were homeless and (b) to allow 175s off lease when other transfers to new operators are done almost overnight (My apologies if the 175/0 are already being used by their new home).

It has been better with 175/1s on Manchester but there are still too many 150s. The use of the Northern 150 as if it is not possible to swap for a different 150 is not mentioned at all.

 

[Broken70]

For me I think services should be split at Carmarthen. Although you can argue passengers will wish to use a direct train from Pembroke Dock to London or Milford Haven to Hereford the demand cannot be strong and we can't run direct trains from everywhere to everywhere. Carmarthan, potentially Swansea would be ideal places to split the services. Could work out something like this:

1tph Manchester-Cardiff-Swansea (67)
1tph Cardiff Central-Swansea-Carmarthan
1tph GWR service to Swansea/Carmarthan

They'll be room above for an all stops Cardiff-Swansea and Freight of which plenty runs in that region.

Trains from Carmarthan or Swansea out to Fishguard/Pembroke Dock and Milford Haven timed accordingly for the routes with 2 or 3 car units should be enough in that region. As far as I know you wouldn't be able to run clockface due to route constraints especially Pembroke Dock and Tenby covering large token block sections.

 

[daodao]

Perhaps the changes to travel patterns since Covid could be down to:

Poor reliability
Lack of ‘resource availability’
Liverpool - Chester service cut from hourly to around 8 services per day
Wrexham - Bidston service unusable
Loco hauled services regularly cancelled or replaced by 2 car 150 units
Overcrowding on north Wales coast and Marches route owing to 2 car trains running
Single Class 153 operates on occasions on Crewe-Chester shuttle
Industrial action
Lack of on board ticket checks
Class 175s and 230s catching fire
Competition on Chester - Manchester route (Northern’s new 195 trains to Victoria)

I am sure that there are plenty more reasons of TfWs own making….

A good resume, particularly from a "gog" (northern Welsh) perspective.

IMO, the root cause of the problems is the use of unreliable trains, in particular the class 175 and 230 multiple units, and the hand-me down loco-hauled stock on the Marches line. I am not convinced that re-jigging the timetables will resolve the issues if this root cause is not addressed.

 

[Anonymous10]

For me I think services should be split at Carmarthen. Although you can argue passengers will wish to use a direct train from Pembroke Dock to London or Milford Haven to Hereford the demand cannot be strong and we can't run direct trains from everywhere to everywhere. Carmarthan, potentially Swansea would be ideal places to split the services. Could work out something like this:

1tph Manchester-Cardiff-Swansea (67)
1tph Cardiff Central-Swansea-Carmarthan
1tph GWR service to Swansea/Carmarthan

They'll be room above for an all stops Cardiff-Swansea and Freight of which plenty runs in that region.

Trains from Carmarthan or Swansea out to Fishguard/Pembroke Dock and Milford Haven timed accordingly for the routes with 2 or 3 car units should be enough in that region. As far as I know you wouldn't be able to run clockface due to route constraints especially Pembroke Dock and Tenby covering large token block sections.

Pembroke dock only has a summer Saturday service to London from gwr in the winter tt it runs to Carmarthen with tfw.

 

[5021]

Here's a new one from a TfW website banner:

Owing to operational challenges around our network, all Heart of Wales line services on 22 and 23 July will be replaced with road transport.

We recognise that this will be disappointing for our customers and we apologise for the inconvenience caused. Customers should check journey planning websites prior to travel.

Looks like the Central Wales has replaced the Conwy Valley at the back of the pecking order, possibly because 197s now operate the Conwy Valley?

 

[Dai Corner]

Here's a new one from a TfW website banner:

Owing to operational challenges around our network, all Heart of Wales line services on 22 and 23 July will be replaced with road transport.

We recognise that this will be disappointing for our customers and we apologise for the inconvenience caused. Customers should check journey planning websites prior to travel.


Looks like the Central Wales has replaced the Conwy Valley at the back of the pecking order, possibly because 197s now operate the Conwy Valley?

Nah, Newport-Crosskeys is the one right at the back. It hasn't had any trains on Monday-Saturday for months now. Fortunately there are 6 buses an hour running almost parallel with the line though.

 

[ATW158Xpress]

December 2023 timetable and service update

We know that lots of things have changed in recent years but our ambition to build a railway that meets the needs of current and future generations remains constant. Our railway is critical to making sustainable transport the easiest way for people to travel across Wales and its borders.

news.tfw.wales

December 2023 timetable and service update

We know that lots of things have changed in recent years but our ambition to build a railway that meets the needs of current and future generations remains constant. Our railway is critical to making sustainable transport the easiest way for people to travel across Wales and its borders.

news.tfw.wales

Disappointed to see a constant hourly tfw Cheltenham been pushed back. Although Crosscountry do operate 1tph on that route aswell. Is it worth Tfw tranferring the stopper over to GWR or Crosscountry.

 

[Anonymous10]

Disappointed to see a constant hourly tfw Cheltenham been pushed back. Although Crosscountry do operate 1tph on that route aswell. Is it worth Tfw tranferring the stopper over to GWR or Crosscountry.

Gwr would be no better as they don't have the extra stock needed either nor do xc for that matter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Disappointed to see a constant hourly tfw Cheltenham been pushed back. Although Crosscountry do operate 1tph on that route aswell. Is it worth Tfw tranferring the stopper over to GWR or Crosscountry.

In the end it's better not to start services people haven't had yet than it is to remove existing services, as people can't have planned their lives around services that never existed.

 

[Garulon]

I would concur with others - I’m not convinced that all of the decline in numbers will be due to COVID

I used to commute on the Marches and now I WFH partially due to COVID and I just have to say I'm so glad I don't have to use that garbage service any more. Eight YEARS of overcrowded late trains and empty promises. I don't know what they would have to do to lure me back but a guarantee not to run 2 car sets any more would be a start