How important are city boundaries for transport around the world?

[johncrossley]

How important are city boundaries for transport around the world?

In UK discussion it is often mentioned that areas outside the city boundaries suffer as a result. For example, the Greater London boundary was drawn not to include significant settlements which are part of London's urban area and so now suffer to some extent for not having transport in their area governed by TfL. Areas just outside the TfL boundary but within London's built up area tend to have a significantly worse bus service compared to comparable areas inside the boundary and are generally not included in London's fare zones.

 

[AlbertBeale]

How important are city boundaries for transport around the world?

In UK discussion it is often mentioned that areas outside the city boundaries suffer as a result. For example, the Greater London boundary was drawn not to include significant settlements which are part of London's urban area and so now suffer to some extent for not having transport in their area governed by TfL. Areas just outside the TfL boundary but within London's built up area tend to have a significantly worse bus service compared to comparable areas inside the boundary and are generally not included in London's fare zones.

Some of the areas just outside the GL area are outside precisely because the locals made a fuss so as to stay out of (administrative) "London". When the new GLC was being set up in the 1960s, adding bits around the old LCC area to make up the new Greater London, there were quite a few arguments about where the boundaries should be - hence the funny shape in places. Perhaps some of their descendants now regret their battles.

I assume that similar boundary issues must apply in other parts of the world where transport is administered and funded by a regional/city body. After all, regional concessionary ticket zones have to stop somewhere!

 

[Bletchleyite]

In Germany it strikes me that urban boundaries are set more sensibly. You wouldn't have nonsense like big chunks of towns being in a totally different administrative area, like Old Stratford for Milton Keynes (in Northants) and a whole new planned development too!

Usually "the city" encompasses the city and the region.

 

[tomuk]

In Germany it strikes me that urban boundaries are set more sensibly. You wouldn't have nonsense like big chunks of towns being in a totally different administrative area, like Old Stratford for Milton Keynes (in Northants) and a whole new planned development too!

Usually "the city" encompasses the city and the region.

Really what about the State of Bremen with it's exclave of Bremerhaven. A country as historic as Germany is likely to throw up geographic curiosities.

 

[RT4038]

How important are city boundaries for transport around the world?

In UK discussion it is often mentioned that areas outside the city boundaries suffer as a result. For example, the Greater London boundary was drawn not to include significant settlements which are part of London's urban area and so now suffer to some extent for not having transport in their area governed by TfL. Areas just outside the TfL boundary but within London's built up area tend to have a significantly worse bus service compared to comparable areas inside the boundary and are generally not included in London's fare zones.

I think this very much depends on where responsibility for funding transport provision lies, and what parameters are set (if any) in levels of provision. Of course the demographics and geographics (particularly density of population and their economic demographic) of where the boundaries are drawn also are a factor.

I guess your question is deliberately worded to an agenda, but the crux is that there is no consensus in the UK that funding of local public transport is a priority outside of the major urban areas (or in fact is not seen necessary at all, in some areas). Therefore, wherever the boundary is, there is a step change in provision. Whether services are deregulated or not is a factor, but this phenomenon can also be seen at the boundaries of the former PTE areas around the country, where the funding model is similar (although probably not as generous) as that of London.

I am sure that boundaries have been drawn to suit the political views of the majority of residents, with the more affluent areas not wanting to be overly taxed to cross subsidise, or be influenced by, the less affluent urban areas (in the 1970s the activities of some of the more left wing city authorities as an example, until capped by the Thatcher administration). I am sure there will be examples in most other countries - thinking of the USA and the (old) South Africa as examples, but how this affects public transport provision will depend on funding of public transport priority nationally and locally too.

 

[dutchflyer]

THis really varies enormously per country. In DE=Germany they mostly have these ´verkehrsverbÜnde´ =what the UK also tried out a little bit with the PTEś long ago, and coöperation in all kind of matters, not just transport, is self-evident.
I visited the Ukrayna many times-all its tram+trolleysystems, before this nasty war-there routes terminate at the boundary, even when a major settlement is just a few 100 mtrs onward in another council. France strikes me as also staying in the boundary-execpt when they have set up some coöperation, like f.e. around Lille.
In Thailand for the major Bangkok area they have set up a special area, but there funny enough the citybus is done by the state of Thailand.
In the USA they also tend to be quite strict in respecting these frontiers to foreign cities just beside.

 

[Fragezeichnen]

There a few oddities in Berlin as a result of small isolated settlements like Müggelheim or Gatow which ended up inside the city boundaries. They duly enjoy regular public transport 24/7/365 just like every other Berlin destrict, in the most extreme cases provided by a minibus which runs on demand. Meanwhile larger settlements just outside the city boundaries are cut off once the S-Bahn stops running for the night.
However, Berlin is not just a city but a state, so one could argue it's outside the scope of the question.

 

[johncrossley]

Are there good examples of places where the city boundary doesn't make much difference?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are there good examples of places where the city boundary doesn't make much difference?

There are some grouped Verkehrsverbuende in Germany, e.g. Rhein-Main and another one around the Ruhrgebiet which transcend boundaries. One could argue for a "Verkehrsverbund Nord-West", to put a German slant on it, covering the whole North West of England, but Liverpool and Manchester don't really get on enough for that to work.

 

[RT4038]

Are there good examples of places where the city boundary doesn't make much difference?

Would have to be a country with a national tariff system I guess. As far as service levels are concerned, city boundaries often mark the transition from urban to rural, so it is quite hard to compare.

 

[FormerBritInMe]

In the USA they also tend to be quite strict in respecting these frontiers to foreign cities just beside.

For local suburban and light rail, and even state supported Amtrak services they tend to stay within the state or region that is sponsoring the service.
There are a few exceptions where states cooperated to provide a service that overlaps. For example Boston's state (Massachusetts) run MBTA system runs trains to Providence, Warwick and Wickford Jct. in neighboring Rhode Island, subsidized by RI. However this kind of cooperation seems rare. For example towns in New Hampshire neighboring Massachusetts would love to have MBTA service extended to their towns, but the state of NH seems to be mired in the "auto only" 1950s in its transport thinking.

 

[Surreytraveller]

This is an interesting video regarding London's boundary

 

[The exile]

Are there good examples of places where the city boundary doesn't make much difference?

Ironically, given its general traffic problems, Bristol.

 

[DanielB]

How important are city boundaries for transport around the world?

City boundaries are actually not important at all in the Netherlands, as public transport tends not to be organised based on city boundaries. Instead, its mostly organised for part of a province or, and that really only applies to Amsterdam, Rotterdam and The Hague, for a larger region around the city.
And both the "Vervoerregio Amsterdam" and "Metropoolregio Rotterdam-The Hague" cover quite a large area.

However, boundaries can affect transportation links quite a lot in the Netherlands. Usually, franchises come with a list of allowed routes to places located outside the franchise boundaries. However this list limits options for rerouting the part of the route outside the franchise. And usually its also not allowed to have an increased frequency on those allowed parts of the route.
There are examples where these situations have been organised quite well: for example the cities Veenendaal and Ede are very close to eachother, but have the issue of a provincial AND franchise border in between. Though the operators share operations on the three bus routes passing the border and accept fares of both sides.

Less organised is the situation in my home town Amersfoort, where the 102 bus belongs to another franchise bordering the city. And therefore there is the odd situation of routes 8 and 102 running parallel through the city, but having a completely different fare structure. Season tickets are also only valid on one of those routes, depending where you've bought them. And fares on OV-chipcard credit differ depending on which bus you'd take.
Also, but that's not really unique, there actually is a part of Amersfoort where you could only get using that 102 bus. Thus with different fares than to the rest of the city.

 

[stuu]

New York must be one of the worst examples of this, with the state border running down the Hudson. The NJ side of the river is very urban and yet has barely any rail transit except the light rail. Having two commuter systems meeting at Penn Station is also not very efficient, having through services across the region would surely be a better use of resources and need less real estate in the middle of Manhattan

 

[FormerBritInMe]

New York must be one of the worst examples of this, with the state border running down the Hudson. The NJ side of the river is very urban and yet has barely any rail transit except the light rail.

There is actually an extensive number of suburban rail lines in NJ at least by US standards.
- From Penn Station NYC there is the Trenton Line (using Amtrak's NEC), North Jersey Coast Line, and Raritan Valley Line
- From Hoboken (connect to NYC via PATH subway) Morristown and Gladstone lines, Montclair / Boonton line, Port Jervis and Pascack Valley Line
- PATH also runs between Newark and NYC
- Hudson-Bergen light rail
- Newark light rail

Having two commuter systems meeting at Penn Station is also not very efficient, having through services across the region would surely be a better use of resources and need less real estate in the middle of Manhattan

There would be technical issues since NJT uses 12KV 25Hz overhead catenary and LIRR 600V DC third rail. That would require dual mode equipment similar to what Metro North uses for service on lines North and East of NYC. For some reason there hasn't been much demand for cross NYC services. There actually is limited service to the Meadowlands sports complex in NJ for sporting events which runs through from Metro North origins east of the city so it has been done.

 

[johncrossley]

For some reason there hasn't been much demand for cross NYC services.

It is not really about passengers crossing the city but the operational and capacity benefits of having a cross city line. Hence the importance of Crossrail and Thameslink in London.

 

[stuu]

There is actually an extensive number of suburban rail lines in NJ at least by US standards.
- From Penn Station NYC there is the Trenton Line (using Amtrak's NEC), North Jersey Coast Line, and Raritan Valley Line
- From Hoboken (connect to NYC via PATH subway) Morristown and Gladstone lines, Montclair / Boonton line, Port Jervis and Pascack Valley Line
- PATH also runs between Newark and NYC
- Hudson-Bergen light rail
- Newark light rail

I know, I meant Union City etc, the area immediately across the Hudson. The NJ Transit lines are miles back from the river

 

[tomuk]

It is not really about passengers crossing the city but the operational and capacity benefits of having a cross city line. Hence the importance of Crossrail and Thameslink in London.

And the amount of real estate it could release as the yards required to store and turnaround stock in New York are immense.

 

[Stephen1001]

Are there good examples of places where the city boundary doesn't make much difference?

I would consider Dublin to be a reasonable example, with the two main city operators (Dublin Bus and Go-Ahead) offering frequent services across the boundaries into the three neighbouring counties and the DART rail network extending quite a way into County Wicklow. Particularly impressive is the bus service to Enniskerry, a village of less than 2000 people over the Wicklow border which does better than quite a lot of larger settlements elsewhere.

 

[DeverseSam]

Dortmund airport is in the city boundary but the nearest rail station isn’t, so you can’t use a A3 ticket to travel there by train

 

[johncrossley]

I would consider Dublin to be a reasonable example, with the two main city operators (Dublin Bus and Go-Ahead) offering frequent services across the boundaries into the three neighbouring counties and the DART rail network extending quite a way into County Wicklow. Particularly impressive is the bus service to Enniskerry, a village of less than 2000 people over the Wicklow border which does better than quite a lot of larger settlements elsewhere.

It probably helps in this case that the transport authority covers the whole of the Republic of Ireland.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jul 2023 ==

Dortmund airport is in the city boundary but the nearest rail station isn’t, so you can’t use a A3 ticket to travel there by train

However the VRR zonal system has been extended to include Holzwickede as a special case, even though it is physically outside the VRR area. Holzwickede is in Westfalentarif.

Tariff zones, regions & fare categories | VRR

☆Tariff zones, regions & fare categories ☆ Tariff zones, cells and short journeys form the basis for calculating prices in the network area. Click for more information ...

www.vrr.de

If you look at the Westfalentarif map, it says that from the VRR area to Holzwickede you use the VRR-tarrif.

https://www.westfalentarif.de/fileadmin/documents/Tarifbestimmungen_und_Bef%C3%B6rderungsbedingungen_Preise/22253_OWLV_RingbuchPreistabellen2022_CMYK_RZ_WEB_V3.pdf

This use of overlapping boundaries mitigates against the cliff edge problem with zonal tickets.

The A3 ticket is valid on the local bus to the airport, where you can change onto the tram or RB train, but not the express bus to the city centre, nor the non-stop bus to Holzwickede station, which are both priced as premium services.

 

[riceuten]

I can think of one example I know. STIB/MIVB operate buses and trams in Brussels, and there are routes that stop more or less just over the border, because the Flemish region doesn't want buses from Brussels operating further than just over the border, for political reasons, more than anything else.

 

[miklcct]

In China, the boundary of Shenzhen had affected the operation of a few bus routes, such as the 398 (now becomes m589), in the past. These routes, although starting and ending within Shenzhen proper, has a section which ran outside the boundary, but they were not official cross-prefecture routes. In the past the legality of these routes calling at bus stops, including the main bus station, outside the boundary was uncertain, and sources on the stop list varied (some showed the stops on the section outside, some didn't; when I travelled on it, the stop announcement went silent on that section). Also the information of the outboundary bus stops could get outdated as well.

There was a period the bus station in that section demanded a ransom for these buses, resulting in the buses refusing to call.

In recent years, under the official policy of improving bus links across boundaries, a few official cross-prefecture bus routes have been introduced, which are jointly operated by the prefectures on both sides. Also a number of city routes with terminus close to the border are extended to the other side to allow connections, which means now such outboundary sections are formalised.

As these routes are officially Shenzhen routes, Shenzhen fares are charged which may be cheaper than cross-prefecture routes, and they are heavily used by people travelling across the boundary. However, during the COVID pandemic, cross-boundary traffic was restricted which means the buses ran non-stop through the outboundary section at that time.