SWR Class 458 to be retained

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Not unreasonable about that, given the 458 cab windows still look like letterbox slips...

No I’m sorry, they’ve never mentioned that before.

 

[The_Train]

Is there a northbound drag happening involving a 458 today?

 

[pigs bay]

Unfortunately SWR and the DfT already have form on this sort of behaviour. (See the threads on class 442 units).

I agree de ja vue class 442/769

 

[Goldfish62]

Not unreasonable about that, given the 458 cab windows still look like letterbox slips...

Very funny. So after 23 years service that's suddenly unacceptable.

I don't even know what letterbox slips supposedly look like.

 

[444045]

Is there a northbound drag happening involving a 458 today?

No it was just the 2 loco & barrier wagons going back.

 

[Pep and co]

No it was just the 2 loco & barrier wagons going back.

They then worked back south with another unit to Wembley. Presume it was 407?

 

[pompeyfan]

Very funny. So after 23 years service that's suddenly unacceptable.

I don't even know what letterbox slips supposedly look like.

If the 455s went through major internal work and came back with their current cab, I’d put money they wouldn’t be accepted. Just because something was acceptable 20/40 years ago, doesn’t mean it meets current needs and wants. (Although in fairness they’ve only just had a cab rebuild)

I’m not sure how you would resolve the issues with the 458 cab, the view is always going to be obscured, they also have cab air con (although I don’t know how effective it is).

It could just be that ASLEF have only authorised for training purposes for some other reason, and may get in to service without a redesign, just some buttons moved around to make them more ergonomic and a deep clean.

 

[Snow1964]

If the 455s went through major internal work and came back with their current cab, I’d put money they wouldn’t be accepted. Just because something was acceptable 20/40 years ago, doesn’t mean it meets current needs and wants. (Although in fairness they’ve only just had a cab rebuild)

I’m not sure how you would resolve the issues with the 458 cab, the view is always going to be obscured, they also have cab air con (although I don’t know how effective it is).

It could just be that ASLEF have only authorised for training purposes for some other reason, and may get in to service without a redesign, just some buttons moved around to make them more ergonomic and a deep clean.

Whilst 458s are still in service on the Windsor lines, being driven by SWR drivers, with identical cabs, how would a ban work. The only difference on end vehicles (the ones drivers use) is different colour paint on the outside and some changes to seats in passenger areas.

Going to look pretty stupid if media start calling it a paint colour ban (a sort of racism because of colour of train), when what they really want is sympathy over potential adverse T&Cs

It's not like the 769s on GWR where they were new to GWR, so could expect changes. The 458s are in daily use already on SWR with cabs recently rebuilt.

 

[Siemens Staines]

It looks like the second 458/4 is planned to be delivered to Bournemouth tomorrow and then returning with 458523 to Widnes

5Q65 0903 Wembley Receptions 1-7 to Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D

Realtime Trains | 5Q65 0903 Wembley Receptions 1-7 to Woking | 21/07/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q65 0903 departure from Wembley Receptions 1-7 to Woking on 21/07/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

5Q66 1750½ Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D to Widnes Transport Tech

Realtime Trains | 5Q66 1750½ Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D to Widnes Transport Tech | 21/07/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q66 1750½ departure from Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D to Widnes Transport Tech on 21/07/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[cactustwirly]

It’s currently July. You don’t think 5 months will be enough time to get them in service? They are, after all, exactly the same train minus the 460 car.

Only metro drivers and guards sign them right?

Portsmouth crew would need to be trained up first?

 

[traji00]

Only metro drivers and guards sign them right?

Portsmouth crew would need to be trained up first?

Commercial Guards of Waterloo, Farnham, Staines and Woking (?) also sign them — but not Fratton.

 

[Snow1964]

Commercial Guards of Waterloo, Farnham, Staines and Woking (?) also sign them — but not Fratton.

Yes so in theory could crew 458 workings from London end.

So in extreme example, Fratton crews have a choice, accept it, or contribute to putting themselves out of work.

 

[Pep and co]

It looks like the second 458/4 is planned to be delivered to Bournemouth tomorrow and then returning with 458523 to Widnes

5Q65 0903 Wembley Receptions 1-7 to Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D

Realtime Trains | 5Q65 0903 Wembley Receptions 1-7 to Woking | 21/07/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q65 0903 departure from Wembley Receptions 1-7 to Woking on 21/07/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

5Q66 1750½ Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D to Widnes Transport Tech

Realtime Trains | 5Q66 1750½ Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D to Widnes Transport Tech | 21/07/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q66 1750½ departure from Bournemouth T&R.S.M.D to Widnes Transport Tech on 21/07/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Guess this completes the journey after last nights 5Q62 Widnes to Wembley which ran over an hour late through Runcorn. I couldn't ID the unit number due to poor light but presumably it was the newly renumbered 458407?

 

[Xavi]

Get rid of stock and drive away passengers, then the government can cut the subsidy.

Agreed that could be DfT thinking. However, the railway has high fixed costs, so maximising revenue (passengers) is the only way to minimise costs to government (subsidy).

 

[DelW]

It could just be that ASLEF have only authorised for training purposes for some other reason, and may get in to service without a redesign, just some buttons moved around to make them more ergonomic and a deep clean.

Or *possibly* that ASLEF see an opportunity to open up a new battle front in their ongoing warfare with management, and through them, the DfT and government? Though I suspect the latter would be quite happy to see the 458 refurb abandoned, and drivers' resistance would give an excuse for that - "we wanted to provide you with refurbished long-distance stock, but those nasty unions have prevented it".

 

[Goldfish62]

However, the railway has high fixed costs, so maximising revenue (passengers) is the only way to minimise costs to government (subsidy).

Very much so.

Roger Ford has an article on this in the current Modern Railways and concludes that the only way to close the £2bn gap is to grow revenue.

But that's getting off-topic...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jul 2023 ==

Just because something was acceptable 20/40 years ago, doesn’t mean it meets current needs and wants.

That would surely only make sense if they weren't in current use. SWT in their bid proposed retaining them in their current 5 car form indefinitely. If that had happened would we now be at a stage where they'd suddenly be "blacked" if the cabs weren't redesigned/refurbished? And the same could go for rolling stock all over the country.

 

[Towers]

Aslef @ SWR accepted the 456s into service, whilst they were of course non-gangway I can’t imagine that a 458 could be any less acceptable being some 20 years or so newer - and, as noted, already part of the fleet! Is the ‘letterbox slips’ remark aimed at the windscreens or the cabside windows? Are the windscreens any smaller than on a 158/159, or a 455? Seems unlikely?

 

[cactustwirly]

Commercial Guards of Waterloo, Farnham, Staines and Woking (?) also sign them — but not Fratton.

I had assumed they didn't sign them as they spend most of their time on Windsor and Weybridge services, with a few on Readings.

 

[Bumpkin]

I had assumed they didn't sign them as they spend most of their time on Windsor and Weybridge services, with a few on Readings.

Guildford drivers, metro or commercial guards also don't sign 458s. You would have to rely on Woking and Waterloo to provide guards to Portsmouth, drivers could be from Woking, Waterloo or Wimbledon but restricting it to not include Fratton and Guildford would be impractical.

 

[50002Superb]

Is this definitely 407?

 

[Goldfish62]

Are the windscreens any smaller than on a 158/159, or a 455? Seems unlikely?

And what if they are? They're in use daily and have been for well over 20 years (apart from a brief period when all stored).

I think people are in danger of overthinking. I'm assuming that ASLEF want the same TLC given to the cab as the passenger saloons, eg new seat cushions and repaint/general spruce-up. *IF* the funding is available I'm sure that work could be done locally at Bournemouth and that there could agreement for the units to enter service in the meantime as long as the work is committed to be completed by a certain date.

Sound reasonable?

 

[RealTrains07]

ive had a look at the recent SWR business plan, published by the DfT and there is no mention of the 458s at all from what I can see.

Does this mean the plan wont come to fruition? Or is it too early on for the 458s plan to be on documents like that?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

@pompeyfan did you mean three individual 458s or three pairs?

 

[pompeyfan]

@pompeyfan did you mean three individual 458s or three pairs?

Well the rumour that keeps going round refers to 3 individual units, not 3 pairs, but obviously we know that can’t now be true due to the fact a 4th is being taken today.

 

[Invincible]

Well the rumour that keeps going round refers to 3 individual units, not 3 pairs, but obviously we know that can’t now be true due to the fact a 4th is being taken today.

Thought it was for 12 car trains which

Porterbrook selects Alstom to upgrade Class 458 trains for their new long-distance role - Economy Class & Beyond

Porterbrook has contracted Alstom to refurbish Class 458 trains for long-distance service, enhancing capacity and passenger experience.

economyclassandbeyond.boardingarea.com

confirms. (But should last longer than 2027 assuming SWR gets its contract renewed)

The 458s will be run as 12 car trains.
Will have 2 +2 seating, to and from Portsmouth.
So replacing 450s, with 2+3 seating, which can be used elsewhere in SWR.
When Bournemouth depot gets the 3rd refurbished 458 unit, testing on the Portsmouth mainline and training can commence.

 

[Snow1964]

ive had a look at the recent SWR business plan, published by the DfT and there is no mention of the 458s at all from what I can see.

Does this mean the plan wont come to fruition? Or is it too early on for the 458s plan to be on documents like that?

The annual Business plans tend to be a list of what is required to be done during the year, that hasn't previously been a commitment (or was previously deferred, so that it becomes an open item in the new list)

The only reference I can find to 458s is that 112 vehicles of 180 (footnote on page 71) to the table on page 70 saying their lease ends 21st August 2027. With other 68 vehicles being cascaded out

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1024656/first-mtr-south-western-trains-ltd-rail-contract.pdf

So seems been contracted to keep the 112 vehicles (28 x 4car) for another 4 years to 2027, presumably to justify the conversion, seating alterations and repaints etc

 

[pompeyfan]

Thought it was for 12 car trains which

Porterbrook selects Alstom to upgrade Class 458 trains for their new long-distance role - Economy Class & Beyond

Porterbrook has contracted Alstom to refurbish Class 458 trains for long-distance service, enhancing capacity and passenger experience.

economyclassandbeyond.boardingarea.com

confirms. (But should last longer than 2027 assuming SWR gets its contract renewed)

The 458s will be run as 12 car trains.
Will have 2 +2 seating, to and from Portsmouth.
So replacing 450s, with 2+3 seating, which can be used elsewhere in SWR.
When Bournemouth depot gets the 3rd refurbished 458 unit, testing on the Portsmouth mainline and training can commence.

Yes aware of what the official plan is, however I was answering a question regarding the rumour circling about the 458 project.

 

[ebennett07]

407 passed Egham about an hour ago.

Does anyone know how likely 458s are actually going to be in service since they are being refurbished? Or do we not know what is happening yet.

 

[Ytfc117]

Whilst 458s are still in service on the Windsor lines, being driven by SWR drivers, with identical cabs, how would a ban work. The only difference on end vehicles (the ones drivers use) is different colour paint on the outside and some changes to seats in passenger areas.

Going to look pretty stupid if media start calling it a paint colour ban (a sort of racism because of colour of train), when what they really want is sympathy over potential adverse T&Cs

It's not like the 769s on GWR where they were new to GWR, so could expect changes. The 458s are in daily use already on SWR with cabs recently rebuilt.

The ASLEF opposition stems from the fact the stock will represent a backwards step for the crews that would be working them

 

[Goldfish62]

The ASLEF opposition stems from the fact the stock will represent a backwards step for the crews that would be working them

In what way(s)? The 442s obviously weren't considered a step backwards despite their age.