Should the closed stations between Preston and Lancaster be reopened? ?

[InkyScrolls]

For what it's worth, I've been having a look at this and working out which stations may be both possible and desirable. I lived in Lancaster for four years as well as going to the university there, so I've had quite a bit of experience of the railway and bus services, and the road situation in the area. To me the only one worth looking at is Garstang. My reasoning:-

• It's one of only two settlements of any size en route (the other being Bailrigg/Lancaster Uni)
• Lancaster Uni looks almost solely in terms of frequent travel towards Lancaster itself and is extremely well served by buses
• Garstang is less well served by buses and is roughly equidistant between Preston and Lancaster (unlike the uni)
• There are one/two minutes of engineering allowance at Garstang & Catteral, plus Northern services from Barrow to Manchester Airport are generally booked to stand for two minutes at Preston/Lancaster
• In short, it would be comparatively simple to add one extra stop (given this equates to two minutes) between Lancaster and Preston, served by Northern's Barrow/Windermere to Manchester Airport services
• I would suggest the station be built to the immediate south of Delph Lane bridge (at 53.907°N, 2.754°W) as there appears to be space available (compulsory field purchases notwithstanding); this is located 10 mi 16 ch south of Lancaster
• This would involve upgrading the road between Garstang and the railway line, and marketing the station as a Park & Ride

Not perfect by any stretch but to my mind the only station which is both feasible and useful to have. That said, the combined population of Garstang, Bonds, Bowgreave and Catteral (the settlements one would expect to use the station) is in the region of just 10,000, or roughly two-thirds that of Penrith. Without the tourism appeal of the Lakes I would estimate the annual usage to be around half that of Penrith, or ~250,000k. This would be similar to Apperley Bridge, which opened as a 'parkway' in 2015.

 

[randyrippley]

I can't till if this is in jest or not...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jul 2023 ==

For what it's worth, I've been having a look at this and working out which stations may be both possible and desirable. I lived in Lancaster for four years as well as going to the university there, so I've had quite a bit of experience of the railway and bus services, and the road situation in the area. To me the only one worth looking at is Garstang. My reasoning:-

• It's one of only two settlements of any size en route (the other being Bailrigg/Lancaster Uni)
• Lancaster Uni looks almost solely in terms of frequent travel towards Lancaster itself and is extremely well served by buses
• Garstang is less well served by buses and is roughly equidistant between Preston and Lancaster (unlike the uni)
• There are one/two minutes of engineering allowance at Garstang & Catteral, plus Northern services from Barrow to Manchester Airport are generally booked to stand for two minutes at Preston/Lancaster
• In short, it would be comparatively simple to add one extra stop (given this equates to two minutes) between Lancaster and Preston, served by Northern's Barrow/Windermere to Manchester Airport services
• I would suggest the station be built to the immediate south of Delph Lane bridge (at 53.907°N, 2.754°W) as there appears to be space available (compulsory field purchases notwithstanding); this is located 10 mi 16 ch south of Lancaster
• This would involve upgrading the road between Garstang and the railway line, and marketing the station as a Park & Ride

Not perfect by any stretch but to my mind the only station which is both feasible and useful to have. That said, the combined population of Garstang, Bonds, Bowgreave and Catteral (the settlements one would expect to use the station) is in the region of just 10,000, or roughly two-thirds that of Penrith. Without the tourism appeal of the Lakes I would estimate the annual usage to be around half that of Penrith, or ~250,000k. This would be similar to Apperley Bridge, which opened as a 'parkway' in 2015.

That would require a heck of a lot of work on the A6 junction with Gubberford Lane, the bridge there (tight 90 degree bends over the River Wyre) and Delph Lane, which is pretty narrow.
A better bet might be two miles or so south at the Kenlis Arms pub, which has a former railway yard round the back. You'd still need road improvements, but heading south joining the A6 at Claughton-on-Brock

 

[deb2]

Travelling between Preston to Lancaster the other day on a stopping service, I was quite surprised to find there were no intermediate stops between the two stations. Its not an area I know at all really other than travelling through it on intercity services but it seems odd. A quick Google reveals this wasn't always the case as in the days of the Lancaster and Preston Junction Railway there were many stops. Is there really no demand for modern train travel from intermediate locations between the two cities? Again, a quick Google shows small communities adjacent to the WCML at:
* Broughton
* Brock
* Holins Lane
* Galgate
* Bailrigg (University Campus)

So why is this stretch of railway so poorly served by the railway? I am guessing there is a capacity issue what with the WCML here being just two tracks. Any other reasons?

I agree, that Galgate, Bailrigg etc stations would be well used especially the University Campus at Bailrigg I hope they do reopen them especially as Lancaster train station is abit out on a limb to the bus station and students going to the university by bus it takes about 28 minutes plus the time it takes to get from the Lancaster train station to the Lancaster bus station about 8 mins. Also if my daughter wants to go from Carnforth to Galgate she has to get off at Lancaster and get the bus to Galgate. I would love it if I could get a train from Galgate and go to Garstang but Garstang has no train station.

 

[deb2]

Travelling between Preston to Lancaster the other day on a stopping service, I was quite surprised to find there were no intermediate stops between the two stations. Its not an area I know at all really other than travelling through it on intercity services but it seems odd. A quick Google reveals this wasn't always the case as in the days of the Lancaster and Preston Junction Railway there were many stops. Is there really no demand for modern train travel from intermediate locations between the two cities? Again, a quick Google shows small communities adjacent to the WCML at:
* Broughton
* Brock
* Holins Lane
* Galgate
* Bailrigg (University Campus)

So why is this stretch of railway so poorly served by the railway? I am guessing there is a capacity issue what with the WCML here being just two tracks. Any other reasons?

There is quite a lot of new houses being built at Garstang and Galgate that a station at both or at least one of them would be a good idea.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It has been said earlier in this thread that the existing buses serving the settlements between Preston and Lancaster as being "painfully slow", so what do people of this thread think the service train time provision would be that would serve such reopened stations, being mindful of the existing fast train patterns using this two-line section.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It has been said earlier in this thread that the existing buses serving the settlements between Preston and Lancaster as being "painfully slow", so what do people of this thread think the service train time provision would be that would serve such reopened stations, being mindful of the existing fast train patterns using this two-line section.

If only one station, stopping the hourly Manchester Airport-Cumbria service would probably be the way to do it.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If only one station, stopping the hourly Manchester Airport-Cumbria service would probably be the way to do it.

Glad you mention "only one station" above and hopefully this would be Garstang. Past mentions of new station stops to serve Lancaster University are "pie in the sky" and existing bus services have performed that task for years.

 

[JamieL]

Just about anything innovative or broad in ambition is "pie in the sky" as far as the railway goes. That is the problem!

 

[zwk500]

Just about anything innovative or broad in ambition is "pie in the sky" as far as the railway goes. That is the problem!

Much of this discussion has acknowledged that the idea of reopening one or two of the stations is a reasonable suggestion, and is technically possible. However it has been pointed out (repeatedly) that the timetable imposes constraints on the proposal in it's wider context (i.e. London-Glasgow passenger and Midlands-Central Belt freight requires this line and there isn't a reasonable solution for the stopping traffic to avoid interfering). Because the other traffic is more valuable to the country and railway overall, the stopping service would require additional infrastructure to be introduced, which drivers the cost up far beyond the social, environmental and economic benefits a local service could bring.

 

[wilbers]

Much of this discussion has acknowledged that the idea of reopening one or two of the stations is a reasonable suggestion, and is technically possible. However it has been pointed out (repeatedly) that the timetable imposes constraints on the proposal in it's wider context (i.e. London-Glasgow passenger and Midlands-Central Belt freight requires this line and there isn't a reasonable solution for the stopping traffic to avoid interfering). Because the other traffic is more valuable to the country and railway overall, the stopping service would require additional infrastructure to be introduced, which drivers the cost up far beyond the social, environmental and economic benefits a local service could bring.

Post #271 has a summary of what appears to be feasible, which seems to be ONE of the possible stations without needing to 4-track anything (at which point it appears to become a non-starter).

 

[zwk500]

Post #271 has a summary of what appears to be feasible, which seems to be ONE of the possible stations without needing to 4-track anything (at which point it appears to become a non-starter).

Unfortunately the station stop in post 271 is achieved by reducing the allowances and dwell at Lancaster, which isn't feasible to the extent required.
1 station stop may be possible without major work if it is inserted into the right service, but it is extremely tight on that section for WTT robustness.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Imagine at this moment in time if a station had reopened. I have had a long telephone call this week with a family friend in Garstang with whom I brought the subject of the thread up. He said even if a new station was open there now, the strikes by rail unions would not allow for travel planning for either work or pleasure and he was sticking to his trusty Range Rover. I believe that he makes a number of weekly journeys to the Lancaster and the Glasson Dock area as part of his company business.

 

[randyrippley]

So let's reopen the Glasson branch while we're at it....

 

[30907]

Imagine at this moment in time if a station had reopened. I have had a long telephone call this week with a family friend in Garstang with whom I brought the subject of the thread up. He said even if a new station was open there now, the strikes by rail unions would not allow for travel planning for either work or pleasure and he was sticking to his trusty Range Rover. I believe that he makes a number of weekly journeys to the Lancaster and the Glasson Dock area as part of his company business.

Imagine if services were once again strike-free though. If he lived within walking/cycling distance at each end it might be a different matter - but that's a big if, especially for Glasson Dock.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Imagine at this moment in time if a station had reopened. I have had a long telephone call this week with a family friend in Garstang with whom I brought the subject of the thread up. He said even if a new station was open there now, the strikes by rail unions would not allow for travel planning for either work or pleasure and he was sticking to his trusty Range Rover. I believe that he makes a number of weekly journeys to the Lancaster and the Glasson Dock area as part of his company business.

"Let's not expand the railway because there is currently a dispute going on" is about one of the silliest arguments I've seen. Railway projects are for the next 100+ years, not next week. While this dispute is unlikely to be resolved until a change of Government, that's likely to come next year.

 

[zwk500]

Imagine at this moment in time if a station had reopened. I have had a long telephone call this week with a family friend in Garstang with whom I brought the subject of the thread up. He said even if a new station was open there now, the strikes by rail unions would not allow for travel planning for either work or pleasure and he was sticking to his trusty Range Rover.

The strikes could, of course, be resolved quite quickly.

I believe that he makes a number of weekly journeys to the Lancaster and the Glasson Dock area as part of his company business.

'A number' doesn't really help evaluate a business case. But let's be generous and assume it's an average of 2.5 weekly to Lancaster and 1 weekly to Glasson Dock. Garstang has, as mentioned above, not many people living within walking distance of a potential station. Maybe your friend lives on the right side of town, but if he doesn't, would he jump in his Range Rover to the station, or would he just keep going down the M6 to his meeting in Lancaster? Given that he has a Range Rover, it's a fair bet he's inclined towards driving anyway, and now factor that in to how many people live in Garstang and work out why reopening the stations struggles to justify the cash.

 

[Bletchleyite]

'A number' doesn't really help evaluate a business case. But let's be generous and assume it's an average of 2.5 weekly to Lancaster and 1 weekly to Glasson Dock. Garstang has, as mentioned above, not many people living within walking distance of a potential station. Maybe your friend lives on the right side of town, but if he doesn't, would he jump in his Range Rover to the station, or would he just keep going down the M6 to his meeting in Lancaster? Given that he has a Range Rover, it's a fair bet he's inclined towards driving anyway, and now factor that in to how many people live in Garstang and work out why reopening the stations struggles to justify the cash.

Lancaster is, the uni aside, hardly a major business destination anyway, it's a fairly small and fairly working-class city that only has city status for historical reasons. It does have similarity of feel of Oxford or Cambridge ish, but it's not e.g. a tech centre in that way, just somewhere ordinary people live.

Park-and-ride is probably the best answer to the congestion issue in Lancaster, anyway, just like it is for Oxford and Cambridge. There's already a northern route from the Bay Gateway M6 junction, it wouldn't be hard to build a car park on farmland near the uni so you could do a southern one without needing to add any extra buses due to the frequent uni service. The lay of the land means you'd only need the two. Then whack up the prices of the in-town car parks so P&R is way cheaper.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Lancaster is, the uni aside, hardly a major business destination anyway, it's a fairly small and fairly working-class city that only has city status for historical reasons. It does have similarity of feel of Oxford or Cambridge ish, but it's not e.g. a tech centre in that way, just somewhere ordinary people live.

Park-and-ride is probably the best answer to the congestion issue in Lancaster, anyway, just like it is for Oxford and Cambridge. There's already a northern route from the Bay Gateway M6 junction, it wouldn't be hard to build a car park on farmland near the uni so you could do a southern one without needing to add any extra buses due to the frequent uni service. The lay of the land means you'd only need the two. Then whack up the prices of the in-town car parks so P&R is way cheaper.

That'd punish all the rural FoB and Preston-Lancaster suburban village residents though, which would not be popular. Plus the A6 is bad as is, without this huge new Garden Village at Bailrigg.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That'd punish all the rural FoB and Preston-Lancaster suburban village residents though, which would not be popular. Plus the A6 is bad as is, without this huge new Garden Village at Bailrigg.

Quality park and ride isn't punishing anyone. For Oxford, for instance, it's a far more pleasant experience than attempting to park in the centre, and it isn't any slower (quicker at busy times due to the bus lanes). I've used it several times now and am properly converted (as I now won't use the X5 any more, because an hour and a half in a rattly city bus is purgatory - so until East West Rail opens it's now car and P&R for me).

Parking in Lancaster is almost as much of a faff as Oxford, though fairly cheap in comparison.

Nothing bar the now unliikely western bypass would solve the issues you get when the M6 is closed, but that's true of anywhere with a bypass, really. But day to day quality P&R from north and south (and possibly west) would really help.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Quality park and ride isn't punishing anyone. For Oxford, for instance, it's a far more pleasant experience than attempting to park in the centre, and it isn't any slower (quicker at busy times due to the bus lanes). I've used it several times now and am properly converted (as I now won't use the X5 any more, because an hour and a half in a rattly city bus is purgatory - so until East West Rail opens it's now car and P&R for me).

Parking in Lancaster is almost as much of a faff as Oxford, though fairly cheap in comparison.

Nothing bar the now unliikely western bypass would solve the issues you get when the M6 is closed, but that's true of anywhere with a bypass, really. But day to day quality P&R from north and south (and possibly west) would really help.

Oxford has very narrow streets, better public transport in from exurbs and villages, and is considerably bigger. Parking in Lancaster is also easier for the hospital - remember Oxford also has an extensive service to the JR.

P and R would help to solve the existing traffic issues to some extent, but the level of housebuilding in the area requires much more than a few buses. And the uni buses are often already rammed, plus with a bus driver shortage, Stagecoach would struggle to ramp up service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oxford has very narrow streets, better public transport in from exurbs and villages, and is considerably bigger. Parking in Lancaster is also easier for the hospital - remember Oxford also has an extensive service to the JR.

There does seem to be discussion at the moment surrounding either replacing Lancaster and Preston hospitals with a combined larger site between the two or simply relocating Lancaster somewhere else and redeveloping the site for housing. If that happens, that may well be solved (and developing that site would arguably be better in terms of reducing car dependence than building Bailrigg). But the hospital is of course just off the A6, so the existing uni bus service would also provide perfectly decent park and ride for that.

P and R would help to solve the existing traffic issues to some extent, but the level of housebuilding in the area requires much more than a few buses. And the uni buses are often already rammed, plus with a bus driver shortage, Stagecoach would struggle to ramp up service.

Pay more and offer better conditions and you will get staff.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So let's reopen the Glasson branch while we're at it....

....and the Garstang and Knot (sic) End Railway also....

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jul 2023 ==

The strikes could, of course, be resolved quite quickly.

But not seemingly with the approval of the executive committees of the rail unions involved. People affected by such strike action may take a far less positive and optimistic view than you do.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jul 2023 ==

Imagine if services were once again strike-free though.

Why am I suddenly reminded of a well-known song by John Lennon?

 

[randyrippley]

....and the Garstang and Knot (sic) End Railway also....

Good idea
Add a cable car across the Wyre and you've solved Fleetwood's problems

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

'A number' doesn't really help evaluate a business case. But let's be generous and assume it's an average of 2.5 weekly to Lancaster and 1 weekly to Glasson Dock. Garstang has, as mentioned above, not many people living within walking distance of a potential station. Maybe your friend lives on the right side of town, but if he doesn't, would he jump in his Range Rover to the station, or would he just keep going down the M6 to his meeting in Lancaster? Given that he has a Range Rover, it's a fair bet he's inclined towards driving anyway, and now factor that in to how many people live in Garstang and work out why reopening the stations struggles to justify the cash.

Not wishing to exactly reveal his profession, but he is a senior partner in a professional services firm who makes visits of a professional manner on behalf of clients. Do not confuse Garstang with the town centre area, as there are peripheral areas with rather good quality housing stock of good age and character that are favoured by people like my friend. You will note that wheresoever you go, the peripheral outskirts of those areas always give the impression of having far better housing than the areas near to the settlement centre. Even if he did in fact take a train from his home to a Garstang station to take a train to the Lancaster railway station, having parked his Range Rover at a reopened Garstang station that took some time to take that part of a journey, how on earth do you expect him to travel from there to the wider Lancaster area except by taxi then having to get a taxi back to Lancaster station from premises of the client. Time is money to professional people. No=one has yet said how frequent these new trin services will be.

"Let's not expand the railway because there is currently a dispute going on" is about one of the silliest arguments I've seen. Railway projects are for the next 100+ years, not next week. While this dispute is unlikely to be resolved until a change of Government, that's likely to come next year.

Have you now changed your mind about the viability of hypothetical stations seeing the light of day between Preston and Lancaster? You do say railway projects are for the next 100 years (not this week) but is it not the case that the former closed stations referred to in this thread have already "had their 100 years" before closure befell them, so they have already passed your benchmark in past times. Prospective rail travellers are not fools, seeing the status quo as one that will cause disruption to their lives. How many will agree with having to wait for a further year of strike action?

Best wishes for what I am sure is your aspirational opening of "Ringway Airport railway station" ...

Governments with their fingers tightly grasped on the purse strings of public expenditure will view politically motivated strike action that damages the economy and will never look kindly upon projects in such a sector. Reaping and sowing suddenly spring to mind.

 

[The Planner]

The very fact your friend is driving a Range Rover and lives "in quality housing stock" effectively says he would never use a service even if it was beneficial to them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The very fact your friend is driving a Range Rover and lives "in quality housing stock" effectively says he would never use a service even if it was beneficial to them.

Wouldn't bet on that. There are plenty of Range Rovers in Aughton and Ormskirk, but Merseyrail is how you get to Liverpool. Range Rover drivers typically won't use rural buses but they will use rail when it's good.

There were also Range Rovers in the Oxford P&R car park yesterday.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jul 2023 ==

Have you now changed your mind about the viability of hypothetical stations seeing the light of day between Preston and Lancaster? You do say railway projects are for the next 100 years (not this week) but is it not the case that the former closed stations referred to in this thread have already "had their 100 years" before closure befell them, so they have already passed your benchmark in past times. Prospective rail travellers are not fools, seeing the status quo as one that will cause disruption to their lives. How many will agree with having to wait for a further year of strike action?

What an utterly bizarre line of argument. I can't even think of any sense in it at all, I'm afraid. The amount of housing in the areas has probably trebled since these stations closed, and the political attitude to rail (even bad as things are now) is completely different.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What an utterly bizarre line of argument. I can't even think of any sense in it at all, I'm afraid. The amount of housing in the areas has probably trebled since these stations closed, and the political attitude to rail (even bad as things are now) is completely different.

The main contender for reopening seems to be the former Garstang and Catterall station which finally closed on 3rd February 1969 over 54 years ago and the people in that area (old and new residents) have had a long time to forget rail provision. My friend tells me that area has a higher-then-average car ownership per household and jokingly suggested the town would most certainly be one that would reflect the ethos of the Liverpool Victoria insurance company TV advert for multi-car per household policies.

You make mention above of political attitude to rail, but it is the attitude of prospective rail passengers that will be the deciding factor whether a reopened station will be a success. Of course, previous postings on this thread have highlighted various operational problems that even one reopened station on this line section would have to encounter.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jul 2023 ==

Wouldn't bet on that. There are plenty of Range Rovers in Aughton and Ormskirk, but Merseyrail is how you get to Liverpool. Range Rover drivers typically won't use rural buses but they will use rail when it's good.

There were also Range Rovers in the Oxford P&R car park yesterday.

The difference between the attitude of Range Rover drivers at Ormskirk and Aughton is obviously coloured by the existence of a long-established existing 3rd rail service to Liverpool that is part of the fabric of life in that area and is in no way comparable to a rail service that had its stations closed over 50 years ago and one that has never seen Network Rail et al adding to a list of projected future station openings.

Incidentally, when I was last in Ripon visiting the cathedral there, Range Rovers and Land Rover Discoveries were there in some numbers, as one would expect in a similar rural area to Garstang, but in a similar rail comparison to the affected areas of this thread, it has been very many years since passenger train services served the long-closed railway stations between Harrogate and Northallerton.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Good idea
Add a cable car across the Wyre and you've solved Fleetwood's problems

Where's the Hyperloop to Poulton, powered by bionic duckweed???????

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Where's the Hyperloop to Poulton, powered by bionic duckweed???????

....or the fast fly-shuttle boats on the Lancaster Canal...

 

[randyrippley]

Where's the Hyperloop to Poulton, powered by bionic duckweed???????

We could have two! Poulton-le-Fylde and Poulton-le-Sands