Future of Ticket Office Consultations launched

[Bletchleyite]

Rename them as customer information points and, bam, job done. How you can keep them open for all of the other things they exist for. No job cuts. No retooling staff to be outside wandering the platforms. Just some new signs.

Smaller stations don't necessarily need customer information points. They're mostly used by regulars who already know what they're doing, and there are other ways to provide assistance like help points and TVM based video helplines.

I am of the view that closing booking offices at the likes of Euston is silly - this should have a "Welcome Centre" which not only sells rail tickets but also TfL tickets, coach tickets, books hotels, gives out maps and directions to tourists etc. It might even be profitable in its own right with these ancillary revenues.

However I find it hard to justify a booking office at small local stations where almost everyone is a regular. Merseyrail should for instance have no more than about ten - the booking offices at e.g. Aughton Park and Town Green are just utterly, utterly pointless.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jul 2023 ==

I think though, that if people with various disabilities tell us that removal of ticket offices, and destaffing of stations for some or all of the day, will make it harder for them to travel - which as I understand it is what they are telling us - then it behoves us to believe them. Even if mitigations can be put in place, which I think is your position, it is understandable if people doubt that these will be forthcoming.

There are people for whom it will no doubt make things a bit harder. However, again, we have to think about what the money is being spent on and what will bring overall benefit with that money.

However, at the typical small station at which I'm supportive of the removal of the booking offices, a guard is perfectly able to provide boarding assistance. For DOO services there is a choice between keeping station staff and introducing a second member of on board staff - I think on balance I'd probably choose the latter, they can bring more benefit.

 

[lrailadventure]

As a taxpayer, I would like to see the railway become more efficient and either use less of my tax or spend it to get more service or cheaper fares. Any of those is good with me.

And as a taxpayer, I would like to see the railway be an inclusive mode of transport for everyone, regardless of disabilities or additional requirements with staff readily available to provide assistance and keep the railway safe.

You will not get more service or cheaper fares from these proposals. Literally, the only people who will benefit are the shareholders.

 

[jon0844]

Most of the railway is not a for-profit business now, and increasingly it is moving away from that model. It's nothing like supermarkets.

What self-checkouts HAVE done, though, which is why I like them, is allowed one member of staff to be responsible for maybe 5-10 tills, which means more are open at once, which means shorter queues. They've been good for me, certainly, I actively choose to use them whenever possible.

And supermarkets are a highly competitive industry which is forever cutting margins to the bone, so I suspect they do indeed mean lower prices or at least fewer price increases. It's fairly hard to demonstrate one way or the other without figures you won't be getting.

At busy times, especially when I buy alcohol or medicine, the wait is ridiculous to have my items authorised on a self checkout. The fact it used to be one person for four tills and now it's one across maybe 20-30 (both self checkout and scan and go terminals) and they also have to do the random checks means it is now a pain to shop at Tesco. Sainsbury's hasn't yet reduced staffing as much, but I am sure they will.

I prefer scanning on my phone and paying as I walk out (but not being able to buy booze or tablets) but that's massively open to fraud, and not once EVER in M&S or Sainsbury's stores that offer his has anyone ever checked me.

Shops just take the losses and pass on the costs to you and me. We are absolutely paying for the supposed convenience.

Again, more staff could actually save money and you could still do the scanning yourself if you wanted.

Self checkouts enable fewer staff. They're the TVMs. But they can't do everything. Just like TVMs.

Plus, again, you keep dismissing the needs of people with disabilities. You've even listed things like hotel bookings and other random things, but not a wheelchair user or visually impaired passenger that needs help planning a journey, buying a ticket, being taken to the train and being met at the other end - as well as being able to ask someone to check the lifts are working at their destination or interchange point, or what's happening with the disruption they've been made aware of (or perhaps more likely, NOT, made aware of). Are there toilets on the train? Are they working?

The list goes on. Of course there's a lot of duplication with platform staff but this all depends on the station layout. You need a single place of contact to get help and advice.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You will not get more service or cheaper fares from these proposals. Literally, the only people who will benefit are the shareholders.

The shareholders?

Of LNER?
Northern?
Southeastern?
Transpennine Express?

Who are they? Well, they're you and me - taxpayers. Yes, indeed. The intention of these proposals is to reduce taxpayer subsidy paid to the railway - and the Government have been totally explicit about this.

 

[JamesT]

Look at the price cuts that came when supermarkets reduced manned tills and installed self checkout terminals...

Or maybe consider the price rises the supermarkets would have imposed if they hadn't implemented those cost saving measures? It's not as if they've got massive profit margins.

 

[12LDA28C]

The express object of this, which is why the Government is pushing it, is to reduce operating subsidy without the political unpleasantness of severe service cuts or even outright route closures.

As a taxpayer, I would like to see the railway become more efficient and either use less of my tax or spend it to get more service or cheaper fares. Any of those is good with me.

As you're so concerned with where your taxes go, are you similarly concerned with money being syphoned out of the railway by means of shareholder dividends, profits being made by the ROSCOs or slightly off-topic, the profligate waste within the NHS and so on?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I prefer scanning on my phone and paying as I walk out (but not being able to buy booze or tablets) but that's massively open to fraud, and not once EVER in M&S or Sainsbury's stores that offer his has anyone ever checked me.

Yes, that's also a good option, though not every store offers it. You're supposed to get random spot-checks, at Sainsburys this normally asks them to scan 10 random items rather than all of it, all based around a risk assessment and the likelihood of finding an unpaid item.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jul 2023 ==

Or maybe consider the price rises the supermarkets would have imposed if they hadn't implemented those cost saving measures? It's not as if they've got massive profit margins.

Exactly.

 

[tomuk]

You will not get more service or cheaper fares from these proposals. Literally, the only people who will benefit are the shareholders.

No they won't as the government since covid has taken all revenue from the railways. The TOCs are just paid a set fee for managing the service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As you're so concerned with where your taxes go, are you similarly concerned with money being syphoned out of the railway by means of shareholder dividends, profits being made by the ROSCOs or slightly off-topic, the profligate waste within the NHS and so on?

Half the TOCs are now nationalised, and I bet the other half won't be far behind in the scheme of things.

The profligate inefficiency of the NHS (while providing poor patient outcomes) very much concerns me, but we can deal with more than one problem at once, and this one is about the railway.

 

[Silenos]

There are people for whom it will no doubt make things a bit harder. However, again, we have to think about what the money is being spent on and what will bring overall benefit with that money.

The problem is that argument is that it leads to reductio ad Beeching. Or the ‘spend money on the Foreign Secretary’s £900,000 private jet bill more nurses, not on well-paid commuters and rich pensioners with railcards’ argument.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem is that argument is that it leads to reductio ad Beeching.

Quite the opposite.

Beeching considered the value of rural branch lines with only two options - full service including station staffing and guards, or nothing at all.

Things like destaffing of stations and rural DOO (which by the day's standards could have been done on a rural DMU with simply wing mirrors, as it is in many countries) weren't considered. Had they been, perhaps more lines could have remained open.

 

[lrailadventure]

However I find it hard to justify a booking office at small local stations where almost everyone is a regular. Merseyrail should for instance have no more than about ten - the booking offices at e.g. Aughton Park and Town Green are just utterly, utterly pointless.

Merseyrail have it right. Every station is staffed 15 minutes before the first train to 15 minutes after the last train. The staff don't sit in the ticket office all day, they provide assistance, complete litter picks, make themselves known on the platform etc. At larger stations, they also sell products such as drinks, food and magazines. More TOCs should be looking at the Merseyrail model in my opinion. It is proven to work regardless of whether you like it or not.

I've had a member of staff at a Merseyrail station, who noticed me sitting towards the end of the platform just before 10pm, come and check on me because they were concerned about my intentions (I was completley innocent, was at the end of the platform in line with where the rear-most doors open, the train had been cancelled and there weren't any benches so I simply sat on the floor for 25/30 minutes) but it was reassuring to know that the staff had seen me and were concerned for my safety. Under your's and the government's plans, not many stations will be staffed at that time. Suppose I had had other intentions.. that member of staff could have saved my life, what will happen after all the ticket offices close? They will be a large rise in incidents whether you want to accept it or not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Merseyrail have it right.

They really don't. Staffing stations like Aughton Park and Town Green is grossly profligate, and I neither want to pay for that in my fares nor my taxes. A TVM would be quite sufficient; add e-ticket acceptance (pretty much everyone in rich, leafy Aughton will have a decent smartphone) and contactless and you've got an offering much, much better than now. The stations themselves are simple affairs, so the guard would be able to provide any assistance necessary, and that will be considerably reduced with the implementation of level boarding anyway.

Crikey, last time I used Aughton Park the guy behind the desk had difficulty understanding "day ticket, please".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jul 2023 ==

I've had a member of staff at a Merseyrail station, who noticed me sitting towards the end of the platform just before 10pm, come and check on me because they were concerned about my intentions (I was completley innocent, was at the end of the platform in line with where the rear-most doors open, the train had been cancelled and there weren't any benches so I simply sat on the floor for 25/30 minutes) but it was reassuring to know that the staff had seen me and were concerned for my safety. Under your's and the government's plans, not many stations will be staffed at that time. Suppose I had had other intentions.. that member of staff could have saved my life, what will happen after all the ticket offices close?

Someone watching CCTV at Control could do that, and send a security guard to assist.

 

[jon0844]

The railway really isn't going to have enough staff looking at every camera 24/7 and sending out security guards to check on people. Staff at stations do that.

But this Government would probably consider someone with mental health issues killing themselves as a win, although they might not like the delay minutes.

 

[NeilCr]

As a taxpayer yes I want value for my money but I am also okay with some spending to support those who might need extra help etc

If we are saying (and I am peripheral to this in knowledge) that all/the majority of TOCs will come back into public ownership then invest in supporting the disabled etc to use the railways. After all it is/will be our major public transport system and we should be encouraging those who need assistance to use it - not deter them

Seems to me it should be looked at on a station by station basis

As I said it will put off my partner. She is less “disabled” than many and independent and strong willed

 

[lrailadventure]

They really don't. Staffing stations like Aughton Park and Town Green is grossly profligate, and I neither want to pay for that in my fares nor my taxes. A TVM would be quite sufficient

They really do. Every time I travel through Town Green there are people using the ticket office. A TVM would not be sufficient. You seem to be ignoring the demographic of the Aughton and Town Green areas. They might be affluent, but they also have a lot of elderly people. People who will more typically require assistance and struggle to use a TVM.

Machines will not fix everything, you need to move away from this idea.

Someone watching CCTV at Control could do that, and send a security guard to assist.

And how long would it have taken for that to happen? The member of staff was with me within 3 minutes..

The only thing your plan will achieve is less staff, which means higher unemployment rates (unless you have plans for where all these people are now going to work since you seem to want machines to replace absolutey evething, in which case, please feel free to share you plans?) and therefore fewer people paying taxes, since you seem so concerned about your taxes...

 

[Bletchleyite]

They really do. Every time I travel through Town Green there are people using the ticket office.

Because that's the only option for ticket purchase for travel from that station!

A TVM would not be sufficient. You seem to be ignoring the demographic of the Aughton and Town Green areas. They might be affluent, but they also have a lot of elderly people. People who will more typically require assistance and struggle to use a TVM.

Elderly people living in prosperous places like Aughton who travel independently are now people like my parents. Who have smartphones and can use a TVM, and could probably manage to tap in and out with their debit cards too if they preferred.

Machines will not fix everything, you need to move away from this idea.

The countries who really know how to do public transport in Europe respectfully disagree.

The only thing your plan will achieve is less staff, which means higher unemployment rates (unless you have plans for where all these people are now going to work since you seem to want machines to replace absolutey evething, in which case, please feel free to share you plans?) and therefore fewer people paying taxes, since you seem so concerned about your taxes...

At present there is as good as full employment, and we're talking about having to bring people in to do jobs again.

 

[tomuk]

They really do. Every time I travel through Town Green there are people using the ticket office. A TVM would not be sufficient. You seem to be ignoring the demographic of the Aughton and Town Green areas. They might be affluent, but they also have a lot of elderly people. People who will more typically require assistance and struggle to use a TVM.

There should be a proper contactless system om Merseyside so there would be no need for the ticket office or TVM for the majority of journeys. As for the elderly they already get free travel on all modes across Merseyside so shouldn't need to use a TVM or ticket offices in a large majority of cases.

 

[lrailadventure]

Because that's the only option for ticket purchase for travel from that station!

Merseyrail sell daysavers online, as well as weekly, monthly and annual passes.. so no, it's not the only option for travel.

At present there is as good as full employment, and we're talking about having to bring people in to do jobs again.

But they're won't be full employment when you get rid of hundreds of ticket office roles (and this will just be the start no doubt, the concourse and customer assistant roles will go sooner or later too...) so I ask again.. where do you plan for all these people to work after their jobs cease to exist? You're the one that was so concerned about your taxes that you kept bringing it up, do you want your taxes being used to pay for all of the unemployment benefits that will inevitably happen because there aren't jobs for humans anymore, just machines?

One other point that seems to have not really been touched on in this thread, at least what from what I've seen, is what happens to those members of staff who are currently in safety critical roles/more active roles, such as guards, drivers, dispatchers etc, but can no longer work in their role, either temporarily or permanently, perhaps following a long term injury, a new medical condition that means they're not fit for safety critical work, pregnancy/maternity, a fatality and so on. Where do they go now, as for some staff, they get moved to ticket offices, either until they're able to go back into their previous role or permanently depending on the situation. These are the people who are likely not able to walk around the concourse for a full shift, but would be well suited to sitting at the ticket office and assisting customers? Where will they go once the ticket offices are gone? Kicked off the railway entirely instead of being provided a role that better suits their needs?

 

[Silenos]

Quite the opposite.

Beeching considered the value of rural branch lines with only two options - full service including station staffing and guards, or nothing at all.

Things like destaffing of stations and rural DOO (which by the day's standards could have been done on a rural DMU with simply wing mirrors, as it is in many countries) weren't considered. Had they been, perhaps more lines could have remained open.

But if your argument is about money being better spent elsewhere there will always be demands on the public purse that have a louder voice than the railways. So cut them right back - yes, it will make some people’s lives a bit harder, but most people use cars because they love the freedom that gives them, to adapt your argument about smartphones. And use the money saved for the NHS, or social care, or whatever other urgent social need we have.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There should be a proper contactless system om Merseyside so there would be no need for the ticket office or TVM for the majority of journeys. As for the elderly they already get free travel on all modes across Merseyside so shouldn't need to use a TVM or ticket offices in a large majority of cases.

Lancashire pensioners don't, nor do Cheshire ones, but I'm sure something sensible could be done like offering a heavily discounted off-peak annual season to those aged of pensionable age to allow them to purchase that at an attractive price, which would be much cheaper than keeping booking offices at the smaller stations open just for them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jul 2023 ==

But if your argument is about money being better spent elsewhere there will always be demands on the public purse that have a louder voice than the railways. So cut them right back - yes, it will make some people’s lives a bit harder, but most people use cars because they love the freedom that gives them, to adapt your argument about smartphones. And use the money saved for the NHS, or social care, or whatever other urgent social need we have.

It's certainly a valid argument that we should Serpell the railway to fund healthcare and elderly care, yes, but it's rather out of scope of this thread.

 

[Silenos]

It's certainly a valid argument that we should Serpell the railway to fund healthcare and elderly care, yes, but it's rather out of scope of this thread.

Agreed, except in so far as I think some of the objection to the ticket office closures comes from those who see in it a step towards just such a cut in the wider rail network.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Merseyrail sell daysavers online, as well as weekly, monthly and annual passes.. so no, it's not the only option for travel.

Via a horribly clunky website. It's nothing like being able to buy on one of the standard national apps.

But they're won't be full employment when you get rid of hundreds of ticket office roles (and this will just be the start no doubt, the concourse and customer assistant roles will go sooner or later too...) so I ask again.. where do you plan for all these people to work after their jobs cease to exist? You're the one that was so concerned about your taxes that you kept bringing it up, do you want your taxes being used to pay for all of the unemployment benefits that will inevitably happen because there aren't jobs for humans anymore, just machines?

That's a debate we need to have for the future - do we for instance move to taxing profits gained from automation instead of work. However the number of booking office staff on the railway is noise level compared to the national workforce and shortage of staff.

One other point that seems to have not really been touched on in this thread, at least what from what I've seen, is what happens to those members of staff who are currently in safety critical roles/more active roles, such as guards, drivers, dispatchers etc, but can no longer work in their role, either temporarily or permanently, perhaps following a long term injury, a new medical condition that means they're not fit for safety critical work, pregnancy/maternity, a fatality and so on. Where do they go now, as for some staff, they get moved to ticket offices, either until they're able to go back into their previous role or permanently depending on the situation. These are the people who are likely not able to walk around the concourse for a full shift, but would be well suited to sitting at the ticket office and assisting customers? Where will they go once the ticket offices are gone? Kicked off the railway entirely instead of being provided a role that better suits their needs?

It is nice that this can be done where those roles exist, but the purpose of the railway is to transport passengers and freight, not to create jobs, so this is not a reason to retain those jobs.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jul 2023 ==

Agreed, except in so far as I think some of the objection to the ticket office closures comes from those who see in it a step towards just such a cut in the wider rail network.

Rather than a means of reducing the cost of the railway so lopping off big chunks of it are not necessary, though?

 

[tomuk]

That's a debate we need to have for the future - do we for instance move to taxing profits gained from automation instead of work.

It isn't because we tax all profit already wherever it may stem from. Plus salary and staffing costs are deductible compared to the more restricted regime of capital allowances so we already give a subsidy to staff as compared to the equipment required for automation.

 

[WelshBluebird]

It may well vary from station to station and operator to operator but in most cases if the station already has dispatch or station supervisory staff as well as ticket staff it is the ticket staff who are being removed not the other staff. The stations will remain staffed. Of course this is different to the one man band smaller stations.

Staffing hours at those stations are being reduced.
GWR are stating that say Bristol Temple Meads will only be staffed until 7.30pm on weekdays. There's nothing in the information that states that is ticket office staff, just "proposed staffing hours" so it is fair to assume they mean all customer facing staff (dispatch etc don't really count as they aren't customer facing and can't spend time helping passengers as that would delay services).

What self-checkouts HAVE done, though, which is why I like them, is allowed one member of staff to be responsible for maybe 5-10 tills, which means more are open at once, which means shorter queues. They've been good for me, certainly, I actively choose to use them whenever possible.

I can't disagree more. What self checkouts have done, in my eyes, is vastly reduce the number of staff supermarkets employ whilst at the same time adding significant hassle and faff for customers and in my experience has increased how long it takes, not made it quicker. For me, someone who generally shops in the smaller stores that used to have 3-5 tills but now just have 5 self services machines with one person looking over them, it has resulted in my shops taking longer due to now having to wait for ages for a member of staff to approve the purchase for certain objects or wait for ages whilst other customers deal with how faffy and slow the machines can be.

 

[lrailadventure]

It is nice that this can be done where those roles exist, but the purpose of the railway is to transport passengers and freight, not to create jobs, so this is not a reason to retain those jobs.

Let's hope nothing ever happens to you then where you find yourself very unexpectedly injured or ill for more than a couple of days/weeks and you're suddenly out of a job. What a nice person you're coming across as..

Not everything is about money .

I can't disagree more. What self checkouts have done, in my eyes, is vastly reduce the number of staff supermarkets employ whilst at the same time adding significant hassle and faff for customers and in my experience has increased how long it takes, not made it quicker. For me, someone who generally shops in the smaller stores that used to have 3-5 tills but now just have 5 self services machines with one person looking over them, it has resulted in my shops taking longer due to now having to wait for ages for a member of staff to approve the purchase for certain objects or wait for ages whilst other customers deal with how faffy and slow the machines can be.

I work in a larger supermarket and one of the things I hear most often is "I've been looking for a member of staff for XX (normally 10+) minutes, can you help me please".. I hope railway staff that are 'lucky?' enough to keep their jobs are ready to start hearing that hundreds of times a day...

 

[tomuk]

Staffing hours at those stations are being reduced.
GWR are stating that say Bristol Temple Meads will only be staffed until 7.30pm on weekdays. There's nothing in the information that states that is ticket office staff, just "proposed staffing hours" so it is fair to assume they mean all customer facing staff (dispatch etc don't really count as they aren't customer facing and can't spend time helping passengers as that would delay services).

No it isn't fair to assume. GWR are purely talking about the staffing hours of the ticket staff moved from the ticket office. They aren't destaffing Temple Meads after 7.30pm on a weekday. This is is the case elsewhere across the network at most stations which have other station\dispatch staff.

 

[WAB]

Except that isn't what was claimed.
What the person you replied to was saying is that:

1. Those stations are having their staffing hours reduced.
2. A reduction in the times those stations are staffed is going to cause issues for people who rely on the staff at stations.
3. Even where staff do remain, by removing the ticket offices you remove the one place you know staff will be. The suggestion is for staff to instead be placed on the concourse, but depending on the station that positioning may well be less obvious for people who need to find the staff than when you could just walk up to the ticket office to find someone.

Which bit don't you think is correct?

There will be no reduction in the staffing hours of the stations I mentioned.

 

[NARobertson]

A point that occurred to me when I looked at the statistics for tickets sold by GWR. For all the stations I looked at more tickets were sold at ticket offices than at TVMs. It follows that if all ticket offices close, TVM usage might double at least in the short term. This might produce a capacity problem unless more TVMs are installed. Of course, some of the tickets currently sold at ticket offices might go in future to the Internet or smart cards, and others might not be bought at all. I did buy two tickets on the Internet recently and they were delivered through the post the next day. I do not see much point in buying on the Internet and then collecting the tickets at a station because you need to go through the ticket acquisition process twice and you are not guaranteed to get your tickets at the machine because it could run out of tickets or have a defect. You might be able to resolve such a problem but overall it would probably be a hasstle.

 

[12LDA28C]

Staffing hours at those stations are being reduced.
GWR are stating that say Bristol Temple Meads will only be staffed until 7.30pm on weekdays. There's nothing in the information that states that is ticket office staff, just "proposed staffing hours" so it is fair to assume they mean all customer facing staff (dispatch etc don't really count as they aren't customer facing and can't spend time helping passengers as that would delay services).

Indeed. A poster at my local station claims that 'ticket office hours are currently 0600-1900' but under the new proposals things are vastly improved as 'staff will now be available from 0515 until midnight'. Then in small print underneath it states that the 'staff' available will be a security guard. Of course a security guard is already on duty during those hours but will be of no use dealing with complex travel enquiries or ticket purchases. Do they really think passengers are fooled by this rubbish?