Rishi Sunak and the Conservative Party.

[DarloRich]

At last something I agree with:

Poor quality university courses face limits on student numbers

Ministers will ask the regulator to restrict numbers on underperforming courses in England.

www.bbc.co.uk

What is a poor quality degree? Media Studies at Keele? PPE at Oxford? Politics at Exeter ( like Robert Halfron who was on TV trying to defend this nonsense yesterday). Who determines a "good outcome"? What is a "good job"? Binman, Doctor, Office Boy, Prime Minister?

Lets be honest about what this is: Posh Tories go to University. Oiks do apprenticeships. Know your place.

EDIT - out of interest why do you agree with this idea?

 

[SuspectUsual]

What is a poor quality degree? Media Studies at Keele? PPE at Oxford? Politics at Exeter ( like Robert Halfron who was on TV trying to defend this nonsense yesterday). Who determines a "good outcome"? What is a "good job"? Binman, Doctor, Office Boy, Prime Minister?

Lets be honest about what this is: Posh Tories go to University. Oiks do apprenticeships. Know your place.

EDIT - out of interest why do you agree with this idea?

Absolutely this

It seems that almost every day the nasty party find new ways to insult the general population

One of the "poor outcomes" is an excessive dropout rate. So rather than wonder why this is happening, and improve the quality of the course and/or give the disaffected students some means by which to hold the university accountable, we'll just get rid of the course

 

[BJames]

At last something I agree with:

Poor quality university courses face limits on student numbers

Ministers will ask the regulator to restrict numbers on underperforming courses in England.

www.bbc.co.uk

I could not disagree more with this idea.

It's fundamentally misunderstanding the point of degrees that don't fit into the field of STEM - degrees are supposed to teach you transferable, critical, analytical skills, and to do so in a field in which you are interested. You cannot just declare a degree is poor quality. What makes it so? A lot of graduate schemes require a degree, not a specific degree - the reason being that there is a fair assumption that when you come out of University, you do so having picked up a range of adaptable skills that you can take forward to a career in a range of fields, not just STEM - it's not just STEM that makes the world go round!

I am a masters student currently but I have been heavily involved in internal University affairs this year, and I think this is perhaps one of the worst ideas to hit the field of higher education - and we have enough problems as it is. It's also damaging to university finances, as like it or not, degrees in fields of Arts and Social Sciences help to fund some of the STEM pathway too - although Universities may not openly admit it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jul 2023 ==

What is a poor quality degree? Media Studies at Keele? PPE at Oxford? Politics at Exeter ( like Robert Halfron who was on TV trying to defend this nonsense yesterday). Who determines a "good outcome"? What is a "good job"? Binman, Doctor, Office Boy, Prime Minister?

Lets be honest about what this is: Posh Tories go to University. Oiks do apprenticeships. Know your place.

EDIT - out of interest why do you agree with this idea?

Exactly this as well. The fact is that it's assuming that if it's a degree that doesn't lead onto a specific role (Medicine/Dentistry/Law/Accounting/Engineering) then it must be useless?? Absolutely ridiculous idea.

 

[DarloRich]

Exactly this as well. The fact is that it's assuming that if it's a degree that doesn't lead onto a specific role (Medicine/Dentistry/Law/Accounting/Engineering) then it must be useless?? Absolutely ridiculous idea.

There was discussion of this on TV outlets yesterday and the first question was about Nursing or social care. Nurses or those in social care may need a degree but will never be paid a proper sum commensurate with holding a degree. Therefore is a nursing degree a poor degree? Is being a nurse a poor outcome from doing a degree?

Personally I would say doing PPE at Oxford and becoming a Tory minster is evidence of a poor quality degree course delivering a poor quality outcome!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jul 2023 ==

One of the "poor outcomes" is an excessive dropout rate. So rather than wonder why this is happening, and improve the quality of the course and/or give the disaffected students some means by which to hold the university accountable, we'll just get rid of the course

exactly - The Tories wont look at why certain degree courses might be failing. They will simply declare degrees they don't like or thier people don't take as poor quality and delete them.

Cant have the plebs going to uni. Might get idea above thier station!

 

[nw1]

What is a poor quality degree? Media Studies at Keele? PPE at Oxford? Politics at Exeter ( like Robert Halfron who was on TV trying to defend this nonsense yesterday). Who determines a "good outcome"? What is a "good job"? Binman, Doctor, Office Boy, Prime Minister?

Lets be honest about what this is: Posh Tories go to University. Oiks do apprenticeships. Know your place.

EDIT - out of interest why do you agree with this idea?

PPE at Oxford certainly. A course on how to spout drivel and dress up outrageous nonsense as sensible policy.

 

[BJames]

There was discussion of this on TV outlets yesterday and the first question was about Nursing or social care. Nurses or those in social care may need a degree but will never be paid a proper sum commensurate with holding a degree. Therefore is a nursing degree a poor degree? Is being a nurse a poor outcome from doing a degree?

Personally I would say doing PPE at Oxford and becoming a Tory minster is evidence of a poor quality degree course delivering a poor quality outcome!

I'm sure this little bit of inconvenient detail will not bother Sunak or whoever came up with this wonderful idea...!

 

[SuspectUsual]

PPE at Oxford certainly. A course on how to spout drivel and dress up outrageous nonsense as sensible policy.

Ah yes, but you meet some terribly well-connected chaps

 

[nw1]

I'm sure this little bit of inconvenient detail will not bother Sunak or whoever came up with this wonderful idea...!

Hopefully the whole thing will not go down well in key swing seats. It doesn't look good for the exceedingly privileged Rishi Sunak and his mates to be judging what is and what isn't a good university course.

 

[D6130]

PPE at Oxford certainly. A course on how to spout drivel and dress up outrageous nonsense as sensible policy.

Isn't that what Liz Truss has?

 

[takno]

At last something I agree with:

Poor quality university courses face limits on student numbers

Ministers will ask the regulator to restrict numbers on underperforming courses in England.

www.bbc.co.uk

I didn't get a graduate job for 2 years after I left uni. I wasn't looking for one and did other valuable things with my time instead, but the job that I did eventually get required the degree. By the government's reckoning thoug my degree course was apparently "useless". There isn't any kind of opportunism excuse left - this is just a spite filled and stupid policy from idiots who are too arrogant to do the decent thing and remove themselves from a job they are utterly unqualified to do.

 

[nw1]

Isn't that what Liz Truss has?

Nuff said.

Dave, too.

I actually thought Boris had PPE as well, but it appears not.

 

[Benters]

What is a poor quality degree? Media Studies at Keele? PPE at Oxford? Politics at Exeter ( like Robert Halfron who was on TV trying to defend this nonsense yesterday). Who determines a "good outcome"? What is a "good job"? Binman, Doctor, Office Boy, Prime Minister?

Lets be honest about what this is: Posh Tories go to University. Oiks do apprenticeships. Know your place.

EDIT - out of interest why do you agree with this idea?

I'm proud to be a so-called 'oik'. I worked hard and studied hard, gaining an HNC in Chemistry and an Honours Degree in Chemistry via day release from my employer, and later on Chartered Chemist status. I eventually ended up owning my own home outright, so it never did me any harm.

 

[DarloRich]

I'm proud to be a so-called 'oik'. I worked hard and studied hard, gaining an HNC in Chemistry and an Honours Degree in Chemistry via day release from my employer, and later on Chartered Chemist status. I eventually ended up owning my own home outright, so it never did me any harm.

Choice is the important thing.

 

[ainsworth74]

Glad to see that no matter what else might be going on the Tories won't ever let an opportunity to gut the armed forces go by:

LONDON — The British Ministry of Defence has confirmed it will cut troop numbers from 82,000 to 73,000 by 2025 — despite opposition from parts of the armed forces and the Labour party.

The cuts, included in an updated defense command paper published Tuesday, will allow the government to save about £5 billion, and mean the army will employ 28 percent fewer troops by 2025 than the 102,000 it did in 2010, when the Conservatives took office.

Unveiling the plan, Ben Wallace — who will step down from government in the next Cabinet reshuffle — argued that the Ukrainian war has shown a relatively small force can be highly effective if it is properly equipped and trained.

“As Russia has so effectively proven, there is no point having parade ground armies, mass ranks of men and machines if they cannot be integrated as a single full spectrum force, sustained in the field under all the demands of modern war fighting,” he told the House of Commons.

“That takes professional forces – well-equipped and rapidly adaptable, supported by critical enablers and vast stockpiles of munitions.”

UK presses ahead with cuts to troop numbers

Outgoing defense secretary Ben Wallace tells MPs Russian woes in Ukraine show numbers aren’t everything.

www.politico.eu

Not like the largest war in Europe since the Second World War is ongoing or anything

 

[Busaholic]

Clement Attlee in 1945
Margaret Thatcher in 1979
Boris Johnson in 2019

All were offering the promise of radical change and all got elected.

I suspect the key thing is that you'll only get elected on a promise of radical change if enough people are massively fed up with the status quo - which was certainly the case in all the elections I've listed. I actually suspect that Tony Blair could have promised radical change in 1997 and would've still got elected, but he chose to play it ultra-safe instead.

I rarely agree with your political analyses, but I do here. Starmer definitely seems to be apeing Blair: I suspect the malign influence of Herbert Morrison's grandson Lord Mandelson, a modern Machiavelli.

 

[edwin_m]

Absolutely this

It seems that almost every day the nasty party find new ways to insult the general population

One of the "poor outcomes" is an excessive dropout rate. So rather than wonder why this is happening, and improve the quality of the course and/or give the disaffected students some means by which to hold the university accountable, we'll just get rid of the course

In a roundabout way that's what they are doing. If the course has a high dropout rate then the government limits student numbers and the university loses out.

The "worthwhile jobs" criterion is a bit more tricky. Since the expansion of universities in the Blair era, a lot of jobs that didn't require a degree in the past now effectively do, but much of the previous subsidy of university places has gone so anyone wanting a degree and not having rich parents must spend many years paying off a loan (which is also subsidised by taxpayers). I don't see that as particularly encouraging the less wealthy to go to university, and it's not doing them any favours if the course they choose doesn't help them to get a decent job. For that reason I'm largely in favour of this proposal myself, one of the very few thinks I can say that about that's come from this government.

There remains the issue that many graduates will contribute to their own fulfilment and to society in general without doing a job that fits the government's definition of being worthwhile. That's a valid point, but I think the answer is that those degrees will still be available, just in lesser numbers, and because everyone has to pay equally they remain accessible to the less wealthy.

 

[duncanp]

I suspect the malign influence of Herbert Morrison's grandson Lord Mandelson, a modern Machiavelli

....who had to resign twice from Tony Blair's government.

Mandelson bought a home in Notting Hill in 1996 partly with an interest-free loan of £373,000 from Geoffrey Robinson, a cabinet colleague and millionaire whose business dealings were subject to an inquiry by Mandelson's department.[31] Mandelson contended that he had deliberately not taken part in any decisions relating to Robinson. However, he had not declared the loan in the Register of Members' Interests and resigned in December 1998

On 24 January 2001, Mandelson resigned from the Government for a second time, following accusations of using his position to influence a passport application.

 

[MikeWM]

I rarely agree with your political analyses, but I do here. Starmer definitely seems to be apeing Blair: I suspect the malign influence of Herbert Morrison's grandson Lord Mandelson, a modern Machiavelli.

Starmer is certainly apeing Blair today, he's been spending the afternoon 'in conversation' with him in what appears to be some sort of unpleasant successor-anointing process.

All he has to do now is find some role for Alistair Campbell, and his conversion to the dark side will be complete.

 

[DustyBin]

In a roundabout way that's what they are doing. If the course has a high dropout rate then the government limits student numbers and the university loses out.

The "worthwhile jobs" criterion is a bit more tricky. Since the expansion of universities in the Blair era, a lot of jobs that didn't require a degree in the past now effectively do, but much of the previous subsidy of university places has gone so anyone wanting a degree and not having rich parents must spend many years paying off a loan (which is also subsidised by taxpayers). I don't see that as particularly encouraging the less wealthy to go to university, and it's not doing them any favours if the course they choose doesn't help them to get a decent job. For that reason I'm largely in favour of this proposal myself, one of the very few thinks I can say that about that's come from this government.

There remains the issue that many graduates will contribute to their own fulfilment and to society in general without doing a job that fits the government's definition of being worthwhile. That's a valid point, but I think the answer is that those degrees will still be available, just in lesser numbers, and because everyone has to pay equally they remain accessible to the less wealthy.

I think think is a fair analysis.

In regard to dropout rates specifically, the "worst" courses aren't necessarily the ones you'd associate with poor employment outcomes which is interesting.

 

[HSTEd]

Not like the largest war in Europe since the Second World War is ongoing or anything

And that war has demonstrated that our army is far too large for its available equipment stockpile.

We have thirty infantry battalions with enough equipment for ten or twelve.

We end up blowing huge sums on salaries for light infantry who will, unfortunately, be little good for more than filling coffins in high-intensity combat. Troops in open-topped vehicles are going to get shattered by airburst artillery in a matter of minutes.

The army/civil service procurement apparatus has botched so many procurements that we will now have to make swingeing cuts in personnel to gain enough money for equipment to actually generate meaningful combat power.
Indeed these cuts arguably don't go far enough.

 

[ainsworth74]

And that war has demonstrated that our army is far too large for its available equipment stockpile.

We have thirty infantry battalions with enough equipment for ten or twelve.

We end up blowing huge sums on salaries for light infantry who will, unfortunately, be little good for more than filling coffins in high-intensity combat. Troops in open-topped vehicles are going to get shattered by airburst artillery in a matter of minutes.

The army/civil service procurement apparatus has botched so many procurements that we will now have to make swingeing cuts in personnel to gain enough money for equipment to actually generate meaningful combat power.
Indeed these cuts arguably don't go far enough.

And if I had any faith, at all, that the Government would re-equip the Army with the necessary equipment I might be more prosaic about personnel cuts. But I don't. At all.

The Army is simply going to be even smaller and less capable and the neigh on criminal mishandling of armoured vehicle procurement which has been on going for around twenty years will simply continue be brushed under the carpet.

 

[DustyBin]

And if I had any faith, at all, that the Government would re-equip the Army with the necessary equipment I might be more prosaic about personnel cuts. But I don't. At all.

The Army is simply going to be even smaller and less capable and the neigh on criminal mishandling of armoured vehicle procurement which has been on going for around twenty years will simply continue be brushed under the carpet.

I was just about to post something similar!

It’s not just the Army either; see the E-7 Wedgetail fiasco for example.

 

[Gloster]

But it isn’t a fiasco: it has shoved lots of money into the pockets of the armaments companies. And we like armaments companies and their donations…sorry, we want to boost British innovation, employment and exports.

Anyway, we can’t change them as they are all as bad as each other and we must keep it secret from the enemy…No, not Russia: The Guardian. (Yes, Prime Minister had it right.)

 

[DarloRich]

....who had to resign twice from Tony Blair's government.

imagine minsters resigning for doing something wrong . Imagine that. Perhaps The Tories' could learn something...............

I suspect the malign influence of Herbert Morrison's grandson Lord Mandelson, a modern Machiavelli.

Great. Being behind 2 or perhaps 3 Labour election victories will do for me. Mind you Seamus Milne is available.......................

All he has to do now is find some role for Alistair Campbell, and his conversion to the dark side will be complete.

I hope so! May as well get the band back together!

Glad to see that no matter what else might be going on the Tories won't ever let an opportunity to gut the armed forces go by

You will say we don't need tanks next!

 

[yorksrob]

They seem to exist to make my life more difficult at the moment.

It was Cromwell who said "in the name of God go".

 

[HSTEd]

The Army is simply going to be even smaller and less capable and the neigh on criminal mishandling of armoured vehicle procurement which has been on going for around twenty years will simply continue be brushed under the carpet.

MoD procurement has been a disaster since the end of the Cold War if not before.

Nothing will be done because doing anything would require sacking a significant fraction of all the civil servents and army officers in the entire defence apparatus.

Nothing like that will ever happen.

And as I said, the Army won't be getting measurably less capable given tha the vast majority of its paper strength has negligible combat power.

 

[jon0844]

Pure bribery, no more, no less.

They can shove their tax cuts where the sun don't shine.

Martin Lewis was upset this week that the Government seems to be backtracking on clamping down/monitoring irresponsible lending (buy now pay later) schemes, but of course they would backtrack.

If people suffering the current economic situation decide to borrow to get a new car, phone, holiday or whatever - they're less likely to feel as down as they might otherwise be. The key will be to allowing people to get enough stuff to be happy, without failing to pay it back and suffer even more, and then they might still vote Tory.

 

[Yew]

What is a poor quality degree? Media Studies at Keele? PPE at Oxford? Politics at Exeter ( like Robert Halfron who was on TV trying to defend this nonsense yesterday). Who determines a "good outcome"?

Someone just skilled enough to make money for the capitalists, and uneducated enough to believe that immigrants are the reason they don't have a good quality of life?

 

[nlogax]

All he has to do now is find some role for Alistair Campbell, and his conversion to the dark side will be complete.

In all seriousness Campbell will probably be happy to stay out of No. 10 if Starmer gets there. He seems to have a full enough life now and his politics don't align 100% with Starmer's.

 

[Yew]

Great. Being behind 2 or perhaps 3 Labour election victories will do for me. Mind you Seamus Milne is available.......................

I'm not particularly interested in the colour of the Rosette the PM wears, I'm interested in policies. If it looks like a Tory and is infatuated with private companies making money from every aspect of our lives like a Tory, then we have to concede that we may be faced with a member of the Conservative and Unionist party.