Future of Ticket Office Consultations launched

[HSTEd]

The TOC will just pocket the fee as additional profit and keep the price as it is.

Why would the TOC pocket the money?
It would be the Treasury that does so in the form of lower net subsidies?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jul 2023 ==

I agree this will not happen given some of the convenience stores of the big chains are doing away with PayPoint, Sainsburys Local are in the process of doing so in certain areas. Even my local Morrisons Daily have now added a different queuing space for PayPoint customers with a sign making it clear that other customers will take priority and PayPoint customers will only be served when the other queues have been served. The assistant I spoke to in there said it wouldn't be long before they did away with it as well.

Selling rail tickets would add similar issues to those paying bills so I can't see them being very keen.

Now if only we had a huge network of premises maintained by the state that have to be positioned close to a very large fraction of the UK population that can perform a wide range of tasks......


We could call this network the Post Office (TM).
I will get my coat.

 

[lookapigeon]

Sounds attractive but:

1. The convenience store operators have been moving towards a self service model for years, and will continue to do so. It’s not unusual to find kiosks in convenience stores unmanned and anyone wanting tobacco having to call for a member of staff to service them.

2. Selling someone a ticket is going to take a degree of time, which will inevitably lead to a queue forming for shop purchases, leading to poor service.

3. Staff knowledge and training will undoubtedly be an issue (dedicated staff in a ticket office struggle to do things correctly at times, what chance an 18 year old part time student selling a complex ticket correctly on a Sunday evening?)

4. Commission for selling tickets, less the inevitable chargebacks when mistakes and errors happen, will render it a loss leader for retailers.

I have extensive professional operational knowledge of convenience stores and I would eat my hat if any of the big chains get involved in retailing Railway tickets.

I think the reason why it works in other countries are that the tickets sold in other outlets are very simple - like one way journeys, a carnet book of 10 tickets, travelcard.

Simple enough to just for the shopper to request I want ticket type X and for the shopkeeper to hand over the item and get payment.

 

[tomuk]

It's a very small number of shops though isn't it? And I think that they got some money from Transport for Wales to do it.

There are 97 participating stores.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jul 2023 ==

We could call this network the Post Office (TM).

And who owns the PayZone service used by TfW, TfWM and others? The Post Office.

 

[Starmill]

Haven't London buses not taken any cash for many years?

You can pay cash fairly readily for a Bus & Tram pass, there are lots of outlets in Oyster ticket stops, visitor centres and London Underground, DLR or national rail stations. Just not onboard the bus, or I think, at a tram stop.

 

[Topological]

I agree this will not happen given some of the convenience stores of the big chains are doing away with PayPoint, Sainsburys Local are in the process of doing so in certain areas. Even my local Morrisons Daily have now added a different queuing space for PayPoint customers with a sign making it clear that other customers will take priority and PayPoint customers will only be served when the other queues have been served. The assistant I spoke to in there said it wouldn't be long before they did away with it as well.

Selling rail tickets would add similar issues to those paying bills so I can't see them being very keen.

It would.

However, we are moving towards a situation where more and more of the transactions at the supermarkets on stations are going to be cashless and smaller so that may free resource, if nothing else there are more spaces along the counter than there needs to be for purely supermarket transactions. Thinking definitely about Manchester Piccadilly Sainsbury here.

On supermarkets there is the point that they need counters to serve tobacco products, so there will always need to be some physical presence.

It is just difficult to see what other businesses are going to emerge that would have the natural capacity for occasional ticket sales.

(Advice could be automated)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jul 2023 ==

It is my understanding the official policy is for ticket offices not to offer splits unless specifcally asked as ticket office staff don't have access to booking engines like train split so the accuracy and impartiality of the process can't be guaranteed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jul 2023 ==


Pay zone do in South Wales and elsewhere I grant these are independents rather than a chain.

As I thought, so really is there value to the ticket office advice? An automated system could direct questions and inform of split ticket options. We are not far from such technologically.

Whether that is what the train companies want though...

For the more regular purchases, like a day return to the nearest city, there is nothing stopping shops selling those as quickly as someone asks for a carton of cigarettes.

 

[308165]

For me the key question is what are the 12% of tickets currently sold at ticket offices?

What's even more relevant is what percentage of revenue does this 12% of journeys represent. I'd hazard a guess that ticket office sales are typically going to be higher value tickets, with passengers more confident using TVMs for some short journeys.

Others may have, but I haven't spotted a figure on this. If revenue per ticket is higher than average and 12% of journeys are still using ticket offices it suggests that some of this revenue is vulnerable to being lost if the offices close - just what the industry needs at a time it needs to focus on boosting journeys and revenue!

 

[Hadders]

However, we are moving towards a situation where more and more of the transactions at the supermarkets on stations are going to be cashless and smaller so that may free resource, if nothing else there are more spaces along the counter than there needs to be for purely supermarket transactions. Thinking definitely about Manchester Piccadilly Sainsbury here.

On supermarkets there is the point that they need counters to serve tobacco products, so there will always need to be some physical presence.

It is just difficult to see what other businesses are going to emerge that would have the natural capacity for occasional ticket sales.

Longer term we’re not going to see tobacco kiosks at the front of stores like we do now.

Smoking is in significant decline, the space needed to display tobacco can be smaller and over time will probably move to a vending solution. Cash transactions in supermarkets are also in significant decline. While cash is used by some as a budgeting measure I understand that many large value cash transactions in supermarkets come from a section of society that doesn’t necessarily want the cash they receive to go through a bank account (I’ll leave forum members to work out the rest…)

 

[yorkie]

As I thought, so really is there value to the ticket office advice? An automated system could direct questions and inform of split ticket options. We are not far from such technologically.

Most people only use ticket offices for those tickets which are not (yet) available online.

Feel free to post your proposals regarding split ticketing in the Speculative Discussion section, but I think the forum's site has pretty much nailed it (if you think we could do better, get in touch with us!)

 

[Topological]

Most people only use ticket offices for those tickets which are not (yet) available online.

Feel free to post your proposals regarding split ticketing in the Speculative Discussion section, but I think the forum's site has pretty much nailed it (if you think we could do better, get in touch with us!)

Can Everyone use Split Tickets?

Spinning out of the ticket office thread is another question. Users of this forum will be well versed in the benefits of split ticketing to reduce prices. There are many sites offering the search facility including the ticket engine on here. However, what of those who do not know of the...

www.railforums.co.uk

Those tickets which are not (yet) available online are primarily the ones which are quicker to buy and therefore would suit on station retailers, or local stores where the staff would have some sense of the specific local ticket.

Does raise another thought actually. Where Merseyside and Greater Manchester touch it is theoretically possible to move from one local authority ticket to another (I think, there may be gaps) and then people may wish to buy both local tickets plus any bridging ticket. Complicated.

 

[island]

3G has been switched off near me. I'm not currently aware of switch off dates for 2G, but I guess there's some inevitability there isn't there.

Indeed, 2G is likely to continue in operation for quite some time. It's used for a lot of purposes, including data transmission from a lot of smart meters and indeed from credit card terminals.

 

[Ediswan]

Longer term we’re not going to see tobacco kiosks at the front of stores like we do now.

Smoking is in significant decline, the space needed to display tobacco can be smaller and over time will probably move to a vending solution.

Sale of tobacco from vending machines has been banned in the UK since October 2011.

 

[Topological]

i suspect supermarkets will find it economical to have a counter service for some time yet. Whether that is fully staffed or, as noted above, staffed by shop floor workers as required, remains to be seen. That will probably be a question of store size. I can see the larger stores continuing to use the counter to serve meal deals, newspapers etc. (Again appreciating print media is in decline).

 

[Starmill]

Sale of tobacco from vending machines has been banned in the UK since October 2011.

Sadly selling vaping supplies in them isn't. The disposible ones are creating so much mess they should probably be banned outright too, but that's another story.

 

[Bread & cheese]

I'd hazard a guess that ticket office sales are typically going to be higher value tickets, with passengers more confident using TVMs for some short journeys.

By the time I retired from a ticket office last year, we weren't selling many high-value tickets.
Tickets for long-distance journeys had become rare, with most people people buying online. (You got some people coming in who had tried to buy online but who had failed, because reservations weren't available for a particular train.)
High-value season tickets had become rare, because few people were travelling sufficiently frequently.
Ticket office sales were mostly either:
1 - local journeys (if there was no queue at the window, buying there was a quicker option than using a ticket vending machine - though young people mostly preferred either using the TVM or buying an e-ticket).
Or:
2 - tickets to London (faced with multiple routes to London priced by different companies with different time restrictions, and uncertain whether it was best to include tube travel or not, some people found it easier to ask a human).
The eventual extension of contactless payment will surely see many current ticket office customers switching to contactless.

 

[Hadders]

Sale of tobacco from vending machines has been banned in the UK since October 2011.

I don't mean a traditional style vending machine, more like one where you pay for your tobacco at a self checkout (and are age checked at that point) and then the product is dispensed from a secure unit when you scan the barcode on your receipt. This style of operation is also being looked at for other high theft items like razor blades.

There's work happening with tech companies to look at what might be possible as it needs to integrate with store EPOS systems. Nothing is imminent but it wouldn't surprise me if there is a trial in the next couple of years.

 

[WAB]

The majority of Tesco's are of the traditional type, which suggests that there is a commercial incentive to keep them that way.

A number of supermarkets I have been to have no manned tills save the kiosk which is needed for them to retail the lottery, tobacco etc. If it wasn't for that, I'd find it unlikely that these shops would have any manned positions at all.

I can remember the M&S in Covent Garden with banks of cashiers and a screen calling you forward to a vacant position. It seems a very remote world to today's experience.

 

[HSTEd]

The large supermarkets near where I live have shown a steady reduction in the number of tills kept manned under normal conditions and a steady increase in the number of automatic ones.

 

[yorksrob]

A number of supermarkets I have been to have no manned tills save the kiosk which is needed for them to retail the lottery, tobacco etc. If it wasn't for that, I'd find it unlikely that these shops would have any manned positions at all.

I can remember the M&S in Covent Garden with banks of cashiers and a screen calling you forward to a vacant position. It seems a very remote world to today's experience.

I'm guessing that those would be more likely to be those silly little supermarkets that never have what one wants anyway.

 

[Silenos]

Most people only use ticket offices for those tickets which are not (yet) available online.

But presumably, if people were forced to use the (more expensive) available options from a TVM or online the TOCs would benefit and you would get fare simplification by default. Not simplification in the customer’s favour, admittedly, but that was never going to happen.

Indded, once you get rid of ticket offices then from the government point of view, there might even be an argument for reducing the online/TVM options further - either the customer pays more, and subsidy can be reduced, or passenger numbers fall and services (and ultimately subsidy) can be reduced.

 

[Railwaycat]

Most people only use ticket offices for those tickets which are not (yet) available online.

Feel free to post your proposals regarding split ticketing in the Speculative Discussion section, but I think the forum's site has pretty much nailed it (if you think we could do better, get in touch with us!)

And how do you know that? Do tell us.

I use the ticket office because it's easier and quicker than the machine.

 

[NeilCr]

And how do you know that? Do tell us.

I use the ticket office because it's easier and quicker than the machine.

Until I started using E tickets I'd always go for the ticket office over the TVM

From observation both queues moved at about the same rate. I too found it easier to ask while showing my railcard than navigating the TVM

As I said before my partner is partially sighted so a TVM would be a no go for her.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Until I started using E tickets I'd always go for the ticket office over the TVM

From observation both queues moved at about the same rate. I too found it easier to ask while showing my railcard than navigating the TVM

Of course that's due to badly designed TVM user interfaces. If we look at most other countries, there's at least one standard!

As I said before my partner is partially sighted so a TVM would be a no go for her.

This would be solved by allowing TVM users to press a (Braille marked) button to speak to a person in a call centre who would remotely control the TVM to issue the ticket. The person is behind glass, which provides a level of separation that means a video call is basically no different.

 

[A0]

This is true, and it should be solved by Parliament. They need to look at a combination of a review of regulations, and more pertinently, getting the unbanked access to basic bank accounts. Likely they also need to look more closely at things like business cash deposit facilities and their availability and the fees to use them, in case this is acting as a barrier for small and medium sized businesses. The fees charged to them by the card companies are generally not as much of an issue now that the interchange fee cap applies.

There's also a broader digital divide here where it's not only card payments but smartphone apps that are required to use some services (either in writing or de facto). Improved access to basic 2G/4G data connections at a very low prices should be looked at.

It's not really a railway issue.

Bit in bold - appreciate it's slightly off topic but it is worth pointing out that there are very few groups who genuinely can't get a bank account. HSBC for example offer an account for people who are homeless. And there are similar allowances on the ID required to open an account etc

It appears some of those who don't have bank accounts are those who have chosen not to have a bank account for whatever reason - but unfortunately that's their choice however it's not a reason for society not to progress.

 

[NeilCr]

Of course that's due to badly designed TVM user interfaces. If we look at most other countries, there's at least one standard!



This would be solved by allowing TVM users to press a (Braille marked) button to speak to a person in a call centre who would remotely control the TVM to issue the ticket. The person is behind glass, which provides a level of separation that means a video call is basically no different.

I can’t comment on other countries but the fact remains that in this country the TVMs are not user friendly

Would she be able to get straight through to this call centre? That sounds good in theory but our experience of them is patchy at best. Like others she’d feel embarrassed if she was in any way holding up a queue

And - again as I said she values the ticket office as a one stop shop for directions, tickets etc

I’ve discussed these proposals with her and - from what we understand of them - they will definitely deter her from travelling by train independently

 

[Starmill]

Bit in bold - appreciate it's slightly off topic but it is worth pointing out that there are very few groups who genuinely can't get a bank account. HSBC for example offer an account for people who are homeless. And there are similar allowances on the ID required to open an account etc

It appears some of those who don't have bank accounts are those who have chosen not to have a bank account for whatever reason - but unfortunately that's their choice however it's not a reason for society not to progress.

The Shelter No Fixed Address scheme with HSBC is not available everywhere and doesn't seem to be being expanded. It also relies on charity funding through Shelter, so it could close down tomorrow and there's little certainty of it being available, rather than being a publicly funded service. Or simply a regulatory obligation.

 

[Geeves]

The end goal is that is that every single ticket is electronic, so unfortunately the RMT campaign to show how many TVMs are not working is doomed to fail. The government do not care if the TVMS are OOS. The calls that TVMs are not user friendly is going to fall on deaf ears too. If anything loading them up with everything will make them even worse.

 

[185]

....in this country the TVMs are not user friendly

This point exactly.

The old basic touch button TVMs, progressed to an S&B touchscreen display which was mostly okay, but this now seemingly progressed to an 8-foot-high flashing animated advert for bodyform ladypants with a well hidden touchscreen option to buy the occasional rail ticket in a minimum of about 47 clicks.

Anyone thinking Northerns (and others) TVMs are a viable replacement to a booking office probably needs help (press the help point, calls 75p/min, may terminate in the subcontinent).

 

[Philip]

And how do you know that? Do tell us.

I use the ticket office because it's easier and quicker than the machine.

I work in a busy one and can tell you from my experience that it isn't the case that most people only use them to buy tickets not available online - far from it.

A lot of people still use them for more complex enquiries, ticket refunds and excesses. We get a lot of people from different countries and also people wishing to pay with cash who use the ticket office for straightforward local or medium-distance tickets.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Just to add to the discussion about TVM's, there's a tweet going around where a customer is making the point they can't buy a Network Railcard ticket before 10am from a TVM despite it being valid for a 9.54am service. The response from SouthEastern (and retweeted by the MD of SouthEastern) was for the customer to select an option on the TVM to say they are travelling after 10am. How on earth is that at all acceptable?

Indded, once you get rid of ticket offices then from the government point of view, there might even be an argument for reducing the online/TVM options further - either the customer pays more, and subsidy can be reduced, or passenger numbers fall and services (and ultimately subsidy) can be reduced.

I'd be careful assuming that a fall in passenger numbers can result in subsidy being reduced by cutting services. What we see in bus services is as services are cut, the subsidy required to continue to run a less frequent service actually increases as passenger numbers and thus revenue falls so much but the fixed costs of running a less frequent service doesn't fall as much as you would expect. This is probably even truer for rail which has more fixed costs than buses.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just to add to the discussion about TVM's, there's a tweet going around where a customer is making the point they can't buy a Network Railcard ticket before 10am from a TVM despite it being valid for a 9.54am service. The response from SouthEastern (and retweeted by the MD of SouthEastern) was for the customer to select an option on the TVM to say they are travelling after 10am. How on earth is that at all acceptable?

Planner based TVMs are the fix for this and any other thing that might be a little confusing, though very few of them are intuitive there's no reason they can't be.