Could the MML route be better utilised to transport ECML passengers during engineering works?

[Class 170101]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/lner-to-london-liverpool-street.251544/

It’s a very long way round but obviously beats transferring to buses for a lengthy detour to the MML.

Perhaps they should try from Doncaster to the MML as Hull Trains are doing rather than buses from Peterborough / St Neots to Bedford.

It's also depressing to see that there is no industry collaboration to extend MML services St Pancras to Nottingham onwards to Grantham and similarly St Pancras to Sheffield services onward to Doncaster to collect ECML passengers.

 

[TheBigD]

Perhaps they should try from Doncaster to the MML as Hull Trains are doing rather than buses from Peterborough / St Neots to Bedford. Its also depressing to see that there is no industry collaboration to extend MML services St Pancras to Nottingham onwards to Grantham and similarly St Pancras to Sheffield services onward to Doncaster to collect ECML passengers.

Whilst St Pancras can handle the 2 extra 5 car Hull Trains services, the capacity doesn't exist to handle a whole load more of LNER's 9 car Azumas, unless you reduce the service like when Thameslink gets diverted in to St Pancras.

Also, 2 x 5 car Azumas that get used on diversions (along side the 9 car sets) won't fit in the platform (approx 260m of train vs approx 240m platforms).

If St Pancras still had spare capacity I'm sure it would have happened before now.

As for extending the MML services, the current 5 car railway doesn't have the spare capacity to handle the extra punters. And there isn't enough sets (or a willingness to pay for it) to double up services to 2 x 5 car.

The MML and St Pancras really isn't up to the job of handling a whole load of extra diverted services.

Probably one for the speculation/what if section, had the MML side of St Pancras got more than 4 platforms when it was rebuilt for Eurostar, could it have handled diverted services as well?

 

[IanXC]

Whilst St Pancras can handle the 2 extra 5 car Hull Trains services, the capacity doesn't exist to handle a whole load more of LNER's 9 car Azumas, unless you reduce the service like when Thameslink gets diverted in to St Pancras.

Also, 2 x 5 car Azumas that get used on diversions (along side the 9 car sets) won't fit in the platform (approx 260m of train vs approx 240m platforms).

If St Pancras still had spare capacity I'm sure it would have happened before now.

As for extending the MML services, the current 5 car railway doesn't have the spare capacity to handle the extra punters. And there isn't enough sets (or a willingness to pay for it) to double up services to 2 x 5 car.

The MML and St Pancras really isn't up to the job of handling a whole load of extra diverted services.

Probably one for the speculation/what if section, had the MML side of St Pancras got more than 4 platforms when it was rebuilt for Eurostar, could it have handled diverted services as well?

I can't find it now but when Hull Trains applied for these rights to run to St Pancras there were some challenging exchanges with the usual MML operators, which HT responded to accepting there was very little capacity on the route, and that they absolutely expected to be "last on the graph". So I'd expect any attempt by another operator to do the same would be very hard to achieve.

Thats before getting to the platforming issues - without which HT would presumably have run 10 cars by now given the reduced service.

That said presumably 9x 26m = 234m for a 9 car Azuma would be possible, as a 5 car 802 would not be able to platform share with anything at St Pancras other than a 4 car 360 (not booked?) or a 4 car 222 (no longer around?) so presumably isn't booked to share?

 

[louis97]

That said presumably 9x 26m = 234m for a 9 car Azuma would be possible, as a 5 car 802 would not be able to platform share with anything at St Pancras other than a 4 car 360 (not booked?) or a 4 car 222 (no longer around?) so presumably isn't booked to share?

On the first occasion the 802s ran to St Pancras in 2020, the first southbound run arrived in on top of a 5-car Class 222 on the buffers, not sure if it was booked however.

 

[357]

On the first occasion the 802s ran to St Pancras in 2020, the first southbound run arrived in on top of a 5-car Class 222 on the buffers, not sure if it was booked however.

If St Pancras has Lime Street Controls then the signalling system wouldn't have permitted it unless it would fit.

 

[43096]

It's also depressing to see that there is no industry collaboration to extend MML services St Pancras to Nottingham onwards to Grantham

EMT did exactly that on more than one occasion when the ECML was blocked when VTEC was running it. Of course, both were Stagecoach companies and management encouraged this sort of cooperation.

 

[Topological]

If Azuma are cleared then is it possible for EMR to double up their meridians on Nottingham / Grantham and then Azumas to be used in the Sheffield paths to get to Doncaster and Leeds?

That is far too far outside the box but would not need paths and presumably the EMR driver for the Sheffield train can route conduct a LNER driver who signs Azuma?