Future of Ticket Office Consultations launched

[Agent_Squash]

The more I’ve thought about the reforms, the more I’ve thought it’s a case of ‘right thought, horrible timing’.

The fact is the majority of ticket offices could give better service with Avanti style TIS, and staff being free to roam. The days of people stuck behind windows are going fast.

But this scorched earth policy is ridiculous. Really, the plan should’ve been…

1. Introduce single fare pricing for everything.
2. Introduce PAYG nationally.
3. Close all category C and D ticket offices and replace with floor walkers.

Without the order, it’s exposed for the blatant cost cutting measure it is.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Sunday Times reporting closures starting in October (behind paywall unfortunately). Legal challenges are expected from disability groups - I suspect there will be a partial reversal for major stations - 'we have listened' etc, etc.

Sunday Times

Rail staff have been told to prepare for 2,000 job cuts from the closure of ticket offices — even though their fate has not been officially decided yet.

The Sunday Times has seen confidential documents setting out proposals by the train operators to cut staffing at stations by October, as part of a plan by the Rail Delivery Group to close hundreds of ticket offices.

 

[Jimini]

Sunday Times reporting closures starting in October (behind paywall unfortunately). Legal challenges are expected from disability groups - I suspect there will be a partial reversal for major stations - 'we have listened' etc, etc.

Sunday Times

Here's a snippet from that article with most of the main bits still intact:

Rail staff have been told to prepare for 2,000 job cuts from the closure of ticket offices — even though their fate has not been officially decided yet.

The Sunday Times has seen confidential documents setting out proposals by the train operators to cut staffing at stations by October, as part of a plan by the Rail Delivery Group to close hundreds of ticket offices.

Huw Merriman, the rail minister, has justified the closures on the ground that only one in ten tickets are bought in offices, down from a third a decade ago.

A protester holds a board at King’s Lynn ticket office in Norfolk this month. The Transport Focus watchdog says objectors’ voices will be heard
MARTIN POPE/GETTY IMAGES
The plans have been put out for public consultation in England until July 26 and a final decision will be made by Mark Harper, the transport secretary.

However, the train operating companies have already written to the unions, which include the Transport Salaried Staffs’ Association (TSSA), the RMT and Unite, setting out a consultation period of at least 45 days for proposed redundancies as a result of ticket office closures.


Peter Pendle, interim general secretary of the TSSA, said: “Under the Department for Transport plans, nearly 2,000 ticket office staff jobs nationally will be lost — the biggest number since privatisation. It’s scandalous that the train operators already have detailed redundancy plans in place when the consultation has another ten days to run. Closing booking offices is going to have a terrible effect on many vulnerable rail users.”
Anthony Smith, the chief executive of Transport Focus, the watchdog responsible for carrying out the consultation outside London, insisted: “Passengers must make their views known about these proposals because this is not a rubber-stamping exercise. Passengers’ voices will be listened to.” The watchdog has received more than 30,000 responses.

The RMT union, headed by Mick Lynch, is taking strike action against the proposed closures
JONATHAN BRADY/PA

 

[Krokodil]

From the aforementioned EIA

Even RMT privately accept that some ticket offices are uneconomic. Some of the ticket offices slated for closure however sell 100 tickets per hour.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Merseyrail are more than happy to offer a convenience store format with their ticket offices.

The one I use has been closed since Covid.
The retail space has recently reopened, but only to sell tickets.

 

[A0]

You’ve completely misinterpreted

All I meant was that if and when there is a mass closure of offices, I believe they won’t just sit around empty waiting for someone to do something with them, that someone already has a plan.

I’m not saying, and did not say, the plan to close the offices is motivated by the ability to rent out the office space.

To paraphrase Hamlet - you doth protest too much, methinks.

Your original post on this was.....

I would be very surprised if the Government didn’t already have a plan for them and their pals to profit from the closed offices through some commercial venture.

I think your insinuation was pretty clear.

 

[Typhoon]

Re banks still having staff, both NatWest / RBS and Barclays for example have shut just under two thirds of their branches in the past five years. There may be (fewer) staff in the remaining branches, but many people are no longer near such a branch.

I assume that refers to Merriman's statement? It just goes to show how much thought went into it. When I got fed up with my bank (NatWest), I switched - to a different bank! I do live close enough to two stations to use both, but both are operated by the same TOC and in any case all operators are adopting much the same policy - in banking different Banks are diverging rapidly over the way they deliver services. Also, maybe he hasn't realised that on many occasions when a bank branch closes, the local MP makes a fuss so they can show they are on the side of the residents (useful if they are Conservative as it is not a 'government' issue) - so he can expect a slew of 'colleagues' speaking against these measures (but only as far as their constituency goes, of course).

Someone above mentioned that they thought it was a shambles, and that is much of the problem; measures like this need careful planning - not just in their implementation, but in their announcement. Forum members, including myself, have raised issues with this policy; other members, and I would highlight @Bletchleyite here - although he is far from alone, have come up with solutions or work-arounds. If these had been anticipated and implemented some of the opposition would have dissipated, leaving the hardcore. Instead there is the prospect of sometime in the autumn potential passengers finding that they cannot buy the ticket they require (or cannot work out how to do it), the station staff member has roved off to another station and they can't find a staff member on the train, because it is made up of two distinct units (apologies for lack of technical knowledge). They are met at the other end by unsympathetic Revenue Protection. For some travelling without having a ticket will make them nervous - especially if they live in a Penalty Fare Zone (what will happen to them?) There are other scenarios I could make up. These people will be put off rail travel, rather than encouraged to use it.

 

[northwichcat]

ITV News report on the RMT protest at Northwich station. It's a shame that, despite it obviously looking like a building site, neither the reporter or the RMT mentioned the cost of reconstructing the collapsed station building, when it's proposed the ticket office will close.

• A video report by Granada Reports Journalist Lucille Brobbey

---

A Cheshire based disability charity has joined forced with members of the RMT union in protest against the proposed closure of ticket offices in England.

Northwich is just one of a thousand stations in England which could see its ticket office close for good, with around 100 set to close in the North West alone.

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2023-07-16/campaigners-protest-against-proposed-ticket-office-closures

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jul 2023 ==

Perhaps the cost of ticket offices should be added to the cost of buying them, and likewise for online

So take a current £10 ticket, and reduce it to say £9.50. Add a 20p overhead for buying online, or a £2 overhead for buying in person to fund the cost of the ticket office

Then everyone's happy, those that want to use ticket offices can, and they are self-funding.

What about TVM on a platform? Website or mobile app should be the one that people are encouraged to use, as it's the cheapest to maintain and the passenger is responsible for either having a phone or printing the ticket, opposed to the train operator. If train operators are serious about getting everyone (who can) to use e-tickets then they should introduce a discount for not requiring them to provide you with a printed ticket.

Re banks still having staff, both NatWest / RBS and Barclays for example have shut just under two thirds of their branches in the past five years. There may be (fewer) staff in the remaining branches, but many people are no longer near such a branch.

There's also banking hubs opening, where one building is being used to provide services for multiple banks on different days. For example, Barclays staff are there on Monday and on Tuesdays it's Natwest.

While I'm opposed to the proposal put forward overall. I'm not opposed to larger places retaining a full ticket office at one station, and for another nearby to have TVMs and roaming staff. That is the plan for Warrington, with Warrington Central retaining a ticket office but Bank Quay losing it's one. However, I'm of the opinion that idea needs to be applied to every large town and city.

 

[Starmill]

That is the plan for Warrington, with Warrington Central retaining a ticket office but Bank Quay losing it's one.

It's worth nothing that this has happened by pure chance rather than some kind of arrangements for cross-cover. Such cover isn't currently possible.

 

[yorksrob]

They have in many locations...

Sadly there's nothing in law to stop the Tesco and Amazon shops with gates at the entrance. These require a smartphone with their app if you wish to enter, and you must sign up online giving your name, email address and phone number. Otherwise you're not allowed to be a customer at those particular shops.

The majority of Tesco's are of the traditional type, which suggests that there is a commercial incentive to keep them that way.

 

[HSTEd]

What about TVM on a platform? Website or mobile app should be the one that people are encouraged to use, as it's the cheapest to maintain and the passenger is responsible for either having a phone or printing the ticket, opposed to the train operator. If train operators are serious about getting everyone (who can) to use e-tickets then they should introduce a discount for not requiring them to provide you with a printed ticket.

The cost of operating a TVM that can issue tickets on till roll (as modern ones can) will be tiny compared to a ticket office. Thermal till roll costs something like a quarter penny per centimetre and is your primary consumable.

Indeed with contactless payments becoming increasingly dominant the regularity of visits to empty cash from machines will be reduced substantially.

I'd expect a TVM surcharge to be much closer to an online one than to a ticket office one.

 

[miami]

What about TVM on a platform? Website or mobile app should be the one that people are encouraged to use, as it's the cheapest to maintain and the passenger is responsible for either having a phone or printing the ticket, opposed to the train operator. If train operators are serious about getting everyone (who can) to use e-tickets then they should introduce a discount for not requiring them to provide you with a printed ticket.

Sure. so 50p for online, £1 for TVM, £2 for ticket office (adjust values appropriately)

As it stands my understanding is that the online retailer gets about 5%, and has to pay if a ticket is collected from a TVM. Seems reasonable. Some online retailers then charge even more for whatever added services they provide.

Seems perfectly reasonable that people who want to use more expensive should pay for them.

Likewise I have no problem with people using cash and car park machines as long as they pay enough for it to cover the cost of the machine, power (including install), and maintenence (inclduing cash handling)

 

[urbophile]

Likewise I have no problem with people using cash and car park machines as long as they pay enough for it to cover the cost of the machine, power (including install), and maintenence (inclduing cash handling)

The problem with this, if applied across the board to all types of transactions and not just railway ones, is that the people who rely on cash are often the poorest section of society. Often poorer areas have no free-to-use ATMs; while people who are more able to travel to city centres can easily access free ones. It's a similar principle at work here. Why should people without computers or smartphones, or who are wary of contactless payments for obvious reasons, be penalised?

 

[Topological]

It is drifting off topic but there is a real need to ensure better access to digital services for all, there are real savings to be made in all areas of the economy if digital exclusion can be eliminated. There is certainly a huge amount of resource being devoted to the means to achieve digital inclusivity.

Throughout history technology has moved on and the ways people do business have changed. A final short sharp shock feels drastic, certainly, but at some point this is coming and it may well be that a wholesale change prompts greater action than a piecemeal transition.

The big supermarkets do still have staff operated checkouts, but I am not convinced that is the right analogy. In a supermarket you purchase lots of products with many shapes and sizes and by necessity engage longer with the process. There are many things to go wrong and having the checkout operator there helps to mitigate the issues. The physical process of using the manned checkout is also easier because you can put the shopping on the belt then later bag it up. These benefits are not present in ticket buying.

Ticket buying is more like going to a car showroom or similar one-off purchase where the expertise of the individual selling the product has value. Now the trend in car showrooms...

 

[Starmill]

The problem with this, if applied across the board to all types of transactions and not just railway ones, is that the people who rely on cash are often the poorest section of society.

This is true, and it should be solved by Parliament. They need to look at a combination of a review of regulations, and more pertinently, getting the unbanked access to basic bank accounts. Likely they also need to look more closely at things like business cash deposit facilities and their availability and the fees to use them, in case this is acting as a barrier for small and medium sized businesses. The fees charged to them by the card companies are generally not as much of an issue now that the interchange fee cap applies.

There's also a broader digital divide here where it's not only card payments but smartphone apps that are required to use some services (either in writing or de facto). Improved access to basic 2G/4G data connections at a very low prices should be looked at.

It's not really a railway issue.

 

[island]

Sunday Times reporting closures starting in October (behind paywall unfortunately). Legal challenges are expected from disability groups - I suspect there will be a partial reversal for major stations - 'we have listened' etc, etc.

Sunday Times

Here you go –

Shutting train ticket offices could mean 2,000 job cuts

Rail operators have warned unions of imminent closures, with the industry getting £40bn of taxpayer subsidies in three years

www.thetimes.co.uk

and also relevant

The Times & The Sunday Times

News and opinion from The Times & The Sunday Times

www.thetimes.co.uk

This is true, and it should be solved by Parliament. They need to look at a combination of a review of regulations, and more pertinently, getting the unbanked access to basic bank accounts.

It's been a legal requirement since September 2016 under the Payment Account Regulations for the 8 largest banks and Nationwide to provide access to basic bank accounts which don't require a credit check and don't charge any fees for domestic core transactions (ATM, debit card, direct debit, faster payment, standing order – fees are permissible for non-core transactions such as foreign currency payments or CHAPS).

An FCA review found that banks were largely compliant with this requirement and by far the largest reason eligible customers weren't taking them up was lack of awareness.

 

[WelshBluebird]

There are many things to go wrong and having the checkout operator there helps to mitigate the issues.

Surely the same argument can be made for ticket office staff? That buying the best ticket for a particular journey is not always as simple as buying the first ticket you see from A to B amd so staff being there can help make sure you get the right ticket.

 

[Topological]

Surely the same argument can be made for ticket office staff? That buying the best ticket for a particular journey is not always as simple as buying the first ticket you see from A to B amd so staff being there can help make sure you get the right ticket.

Yes, it is about the only long term argument for maintaining ticket offices as issues of cash and digital access will be sorted.

We are also not far away from much of that expertise being provided by a digital assistant, which will then negate most of the advantage of the human in the rail case.

The fact that something will not scan, or you realise you picked up the wrong variety of breakfast cereal is not really a train problem. Those physical issues will be plaguing supermarkets for a while.

This is all assuming the train ticket office are telling you the best options for you as a traveller, that is not something that is currently the case to my understanding. For example train ticket office staff do not tell you the cheapest split of tickets and go through the ramifications of selecting certain splits when trains do not all stop there (etc.). Now if that were corrected...

 

[northwichcat]

The cost of operating a TVM that can issue tickets on till roll (as modern ones can) will be tiny compared to a ticket office. Thermal till roll costs something like a quarter penny per centimetre and is your primary consumable.

Indeed with contactless payments becoming increasingly dominant the regularity of visits to empty cash from machines will be reduced substantially.

I'd expect a TVM surcharge to be much closer to an online one than to a ticket office one.

The cost of installing the machines and fixing them will be a lot higher than for a website. Online ticketing is basically the cost of a white label subscription and some work to customise the design and integrate it into the website. If the website goes down at 7pm then someone can open their laptop at home and work on fixing the problem. If 25 TVMs develop a hardware fault, then the train operator needs to order replacement hardware and then send someone around to all the different locations to fix them. That might takes weeks to complete.

Sure. so 50p for online, £1 for TVM, £2 for ticket office (adjust values appropriately)

But why have any surcharge for a default method? It creates all kind of advertising problems, as both Megabus and Ryanair have found. If you want to advertise a £20 Birmingham to London ticket there's needs to be a way of buying it for a final cost of £20 without paying any additional fees, otherwise you need to add lots of small print about your fees and what they are actually for. It used to be that offering an exemption for Visa Electron cards was enough but not anymore.

Likewise I have no problem with people using cash and car park machines as long as they pay enough for it to cover the cost of the machine, power (including install), and maintenence (inclduing cash handling)

Car parking machines are something different altogether. Many councils are now requiring vehicle registration numbers to be entered, whether you register for an app or buy at the machine. This then creates issues for someone with one phone, who may drive more than one vehicle and also creates longer queues for machines.

Improved access to basic 2G/4G data connections at a very low prices should be looked at.

With mobile networks we're now going through the equivalent of analogue TV turn off. Mobile networks are in the process of closing down anything inferior to 4G, as they rollout 5G. A number of people with older/basic models will need to upgrade their phones over the next 18 months, unless they choose to only access the Internet on their device through WiFi connections.

 

[HSTEd]

The cost of installing the machines and fixing them will be a lot higher than for a website. Online ticketing is basically the cost of a white label subscription and some work to customise the design and integrate it into the website. If the website goes down at 7pm then someone can open their laptop at home and work on fixing the problem. If 25 TVMs develop a hardware fault, then the train operator needs to order replacement hardware and then send someone around to all the different locations to fix them. That might takes weeks to complete.

And yet they remain tiny in cost terms compared to the cost of maintaining all that machinery in a ticket office and then paying someone to sit there all day slowly issuing tickets.

Modern ticket machines have very few moving parts in them.
Card only ticket machines take this to the point of having only one moving part in them these days - the till roll type printer.

Even cash machines are much simpler now they don't need mechanical mechanisms to sort coins - they can do it with a radar or similar sensor that, again, has very few moving parts.

TVMs would end up with a ticket surcharge that was a tiny fraction of the one for manned ticket offices.

 

[Backroom_boy]

I suspect there will be a partial reversal for major stations - 'we have listened' etc, etc.

I can't remember but I think something similar happened on TFL, for a couple of years and then they were closed in a phase2

 

[Hadders]

At larger stations it is not beyond possible to have the Tesco Express / Sainsburys etc offering tickets.

Sounds attractive but:

1. The convenience store operators have been moving towards a self service model for years, and will continue to do so. It’s not unusual to find kiosks in convenience stores unmanned and anyone wanting tobacco having to call for a member of staff to service them.

2. Selling someone a ticket is going to take a degree of time, which will inevitably lead to a queue forming for shop purchases, leading to poor service.

3. Staff knowledge and training will undoubtedly be an issue (dedicated staff in a ticket office struggle to do things correctly at times, what chance an 18 year old part time student selling a complex ticket correctly on a Sunday evening?)

4. Commission for selling tickets, less the inevitable chargebacks when mistakes and errors happen, will render it a loss leader for retailers.

I have extensive professional operational knowledge of convenience stores and I would eat my hat if any of the big chains get involved in retailing Railway tickets.

 

[eldomtom2]

This is true, and it should be solved by Parliament. They need to look at a combination of a review of regulations, and more pertinently, getting the unbanked access to basic bank accounts. Likely they also need to look more closely at things like business cash deposit facilities and their availability and the fees to use them, in case this is acting as a barrier for small and medium sized businesses. The fees charged to them by the card companies are generally not as much of an issue now that the interchange fee cap applies.

There's also a broader digital divide here where it's not only card payments but smartphone apps that are required to use some services (either in writing or de facto). Improved access to basic 2G/4G data connections at a very low prices should be looked at.

It's not really a railway issue.

I'm not sure it's ideal for the railway to go "not our business" when the issue of the unbanked is brought up.

 

[Starmill]

It's been a legal requirement since September 2016 under the Payment Account Regulations for the 8 largest banks and Nationwide to provide access to basic bank accounts which don't require a credit check and don't charge any fees for domestic core transactions (ATM, debit card, direct debit, faster payment, standing order – fees are permissible for non-core transactions such as foreign currency payments or CHAPS).

An FCA review found that banks were largely compliant with this requirement and by far the largest reason eligible customers weren't taking them up was lack of awareness.

A benefial change to be sure. But for example an address is generally still required, which some people will struggle with, e.g. if you're living temporarily in a refuge. There was a trial scheme for basic bank accounts without an address at HSBC but I don't think it's going further. Also some people may not have passport or driving licence, which may make meeting the ID requirement troublesome.

E-money accounts with prepaid cards might be ways around some of this. But you're right that doing more to promote the free basic accounts already on the market would also be helpful.

 

[tomuk]

Yes, it is about the only long term argument for maintaining ticket offices as issues of cash and digital access will be sorted.

We are also not far away from much of that expertise being provided by a digital assistant, which will then negate most of the advantage of the human in the rail case.

The fact that something will not scan, or you realise you picked up the wrong variety of breakfast cereal is not really a train problem. Those physical issues will be plaguing supermarkets for a while.

This is all assuming the train ticket office are telling you the best options for you as a traveller, that is not something that is currently the case to my understanding. For example train ticket office staff do not tell you the cheapest split of tickets and go through the ramifications of selecting certain splits when trains do not all stop there (etc.). Now if that were corrected...

It is my understanding the official policy is for ticket offices not to offer splits unless specifcally asked as ticket office staff don't have access to booking engines like train split so the accuracy and impartiality of the process can't be guaranteed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jul 2023 ==

I have extensive professional operational knowledge of convenience stores and I would eat my hat if any of the big chains get involved in retailing Railway tickets.

Pay zone do in South Wales and elsewhere I grant these are independents rather than a chain.

 

[Starmill]

I'm not sure it's ideal for the railway to go "not our business" when the issue of the unbanked is brought up.

I agree that for now all forms of public transport should maintain a way to pay cash. However that's probably going to change in the future.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jul 2023 ==

Pay zone do in South Wales and elsewhere I grant these are independents rather than a chain.

It's a very small number of shops though isn't it? And I think that they got some money from Transport for Wales to do it.

 

[Darandio]

Sounds attractive but:

1. The convenience store operators have been moving towards a self service model for years, and will continue to do so. It’s not unusual to find kiosks in convenience stores unmanned and anyone wanting tobacco having to call for a member of staff to service them.

2. Selling someone a ticket is going to take a degree of time, which will inevitably lead to a queue forming for shop purchases, leading to poor service.

3. Staff knowledge and training will undoubtedly be an issue (dedicated staff in a ticket office struggle to do things correctly at times, what chance an 18 year old part time student selling a complex ticket correctly on a Sunday evening?)

4. Commission for selling tickets, less the inevitable chargebacks when mistakes and errors happen, will render it a loss leader for retailers.

I have extensive professional operational knowledge of convenience stores and I would eat my hat if any of the big chains get involved in retailing Railway tickets.

I agree this will not happen given some of the convenience stores of the big chains are doing away with PayPoint, Sainsburys Local are in the process of doing so in certain areas. Even my local Morrisons Daily have now added a different queuing space for PayPoint customers with a sign making it clear that other customers will take priority and PayPoint customers will only be served when the other queues have been served. The assistant I spoke to in there said it wouldn't be long before they did away with it as well.

Selling rail tickets would add similar issues to those paying bills so I can't see them being very keen.

 

[Robertj21a]

I agree that for now all forms of public transport should maintain a way to pay cash. However that's probably going to change in the future.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jul 2023 ==


It's a very small number of shops though isn't it? And I think that they got some money from Transport for Wales to do it.

Haven't London buses not taken any cash for many years?

 

[Starmill]

With mobile networks we're now going through the equivalent of analogue TV turn off. Mobile networks are in the process of closing down anything inferior to 4G, as they rollout 5G. A number of people with older/basic models will need to upgrade their phones over the next 18 months, unless they choose to only access the Internet on their device through WiFi connections.

3G has been switched off near me. I'm not currently aware of switch off dates for 2G, but I guess there's some inevitability there isn't there.

 

[lookapigeon]

And yet they remain tiny in cost terms compared to the cost of maintaining all that machinery in a ticket office and then paying someone to sit there all day slowly issuing tickets.

Modern ticket machines have very few moving parts in them.
Card only ticket machines take this to the point of having only one moving part in them these days - the till roll type printer.

Even cash machines are much simpler now they don't need mechanical mechanisms to sort coins - they can do it with a radar or similar sensor that, again, has very few moving parts.

TVMs would end up with a ticket surcharge that was a tiny fraction of the one for manned ticket offices.

Any organisation's IT if they're any good should have a stock of rolling spares to ensure that there is no/least disruption caused by faults.

As for the person in this thread asking for surcharges, I have go all McEnroe on you and say you cannot be serious! Do you honestly think that the ticket prices will come down as a result?!

The TOC will just pocket the fee as additional profit and keep the price as it is.