Visiting American ticket

[Farequestion]

I had got on a train without my rail card
For the first time I was told that since it was my first offence if I provided evidence mailed it to their office I wouldn’t have to pay a fine. I did so but apparently they did not receive it time and are now demanding a fine

I boarded a train from Tipton while visiting once I discovered the area I booked is generally not safe in addition to not situated close to Birmingham, Dudley. I bought a bus ticket to go tot he next closest train station to board a train, this, the coronation week, the train station itself remained locked with no staff present I boarded the train assuming I can buy a ticket from the conductor, as I spent over £300 in transportation throughout the UK. On the train two me. Approached me as they did other passengers neither claimed to sell tickets telling me that they are revenue agents I provided these two with details voluntarily informing them of how I got am on this train both told me the statement in the first line that this is a non issue that can be cancelled greenfly not I received the letter from them later as the home I rented irresponsibly sent me the letter weeks after meaning my appeal arrived later to the ircas to whom I clearly informed of the rationale for that late arrival now the fine is one hundred including the fare is there a way to appeal this at worst reduce that charge

This occurred in may


What should I do ?

 

[AlterEgo]

OK, let's get some facts in order.

- You say you are "Visiting American" - are you still in the UK, or are you in the USA?
- When you say you got on your train without a railcard, which type of railcard is this?
- You boarded, where? Tipton? And there were no ticket purchasing facilities available?
- Is the issue that you forgot your *railcard*, or that you were caught travelling with no ticket?
- Were you given a Penalty Fare? Is this the "fine" you are referring to? Can you upload a copy of this please, with your name redacted?

 

[Farequestion]

I am, I left the UK
A ticket
I boarded at Tipton, none open
I asked to buy a ticket they told me that they are not able to sell tickets informing me of their role as revenue agents
A Penalty fare

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jul 2023 ==

OK, let's get some facts in order.

- You say you are "Visiting American" - are you still in the UK, or are you in the USA?
- When you say you got on your train without a railcard, which type of railcard is this?
- You boarded, where? Tipton? And there were no ticket purchasing facilities available?
- Is the issue that you forgot your *railcard*, or that you were caught travelling with no ticket?
- Were you given a Penalty Fare? Is this the "fine" you are referring to? Can you upload a copy of this please, with your name redacted?

 

[AlterEgo]

I had got on a train without my rail card
For the first time I was told that since it was my first offence if I provided evidence mailed it to their office I wouldn’t have to pay a fine. I did so but apparently they did not receive it time and are now demanding a fine

So you mention you didn’t have a *ticket*. What, exactly, do you mean here when you say “if you have evidence and mail it to their office”? Evidence of what? This is the standard procedure for forgotten railcards.

What did you send them?

Do you have your copy of the original Penalty Fare notice? What you uploaded is the most recent letter you have.

 

[island]

Tickets need to be purchased before boarding. Why didn't you use the ticket machine at Tipton?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

This is the standard procedure for forgotten railcards.

I think there may be some confusion over terminology here: the British train ticketing system allows some people to buy what is called a 'railcard': it's actually a discount card allowing them to get money off the 'ticket' that they need to make a journey.

OP - please could you clarify what *you* mean by 'railcard'?

And one other question - do you ever plan to come back to the UK? I'm not asking if our railway has upset you so much that you will never be back - it's just that it might make a difference to whether you need to pay this.

 

[Farequestion]

I think there may be some confusion over terminology here: the British train ticketing system allows some people to buy what is called a 'railcard': it's actually a discount card allowing them to get money off the 'ticket' that they need to make a journey.

OP - please could you clarify what *you* mean by 'railcard'?

And one other question - do you ever plan to come back to the UK? I'm not asking if our railway has upset you so much that you will never be back - it's just that it might make a difference to whether you need to pay this.

Yes

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jul 2023 ==

So you mention you didn’t have a *ticket*. What, exactly, do you mean here when you say “if you have evidence and mail it to their office”? Evidence of what? This is the standard procedure for forgotten railcards.

What did you send them?

Do you have your copy of the original Penalty Fare notice? What you uploaded is the most recent letter you have.

Evidence of purchasing a ticket to the Dudley train station

No I received this from the owner of the temporary residence I rented who sent a picture of this weeks from the original mail date

The general premise of what the revenue officers conveyed is this is a first time offense I intended to purchase a ticket yet unable to they issued a ticket prior to getting the full story so thisnis going to likely be voided however I received the mail late to begin to file an appeal anyway

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jul 2023 ==

I think there may be some confusion over terminology here: the British train ticketing system allows some people to buy what is called a 'railcard': it's actually a discount card allowing them to get money off the 'ticket' that they need to make a journey.

OP - please could you clarify what *you* mean by 'railcard'?

And one other question - do you ever plan to come back to the UK? I'm not asking if our railway has upset you so much that you will never be back - it's just that it might make a difference to whether you need to pay this.

A ticket

 

[AlterEgo]

I’m really lost here. You already had a bus ticket to Dudley? And now you say to “the Dudley train station” - what ticket, exactly? Which station in Dudley? Dudley Port or Sandwell and Dudley? Why do you have a bus ticket, did you travel by bus somewhere?

What relevance is that to the Penalty Fare issued by the train company?

You boarded at Tipton and you were travelling *to where?*

Why didn’t you use a ticket machine at Tipton?

Please upload a copy of the original Penalty Fare notice if you have it, it would clear up a lot of questions because your whole situation is very unclear.

 

[maniacmartin]

Farequestion, your replies are so short and terse that I'm struggling to work out what tickets you held and what actually happened. That makes it hard to give good advice

 

[Farequestion]

Can this be reduced or voided ?
The route is Dudley to Birmingham
See the original post
I boarded the bus from Dudley to Tipton see the original post to continue from Tipton to final destination

There did not appear to be a ticket machine at least on the aisle on which I stood you can buy a ticket from a conductor so how come they did not sell a ticket as that is what I thought them to be for in the least effort scenario refer to the conductor

The material I included is what I retain from them

I’m really lost here. You already had a bus ticket to Dudley? And now you say to “the Dudley train station” - what ticket, exactly? Which station in Dudley? Dudley Port or Sandwell and Dudley? Why do you have a bus ticket, did you travel by bus somewhere?

What relevance is that to the Penalty Fare issued by the train company?

You boarded at Tipton and you were travelling *to where?*

Why didn’t you use a ticket machine at Tipton?

Please upload a copy of the original Penalty Fare notice if you have it, it would clear up a lot of questions because your whole situation is very unclear.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jul 2023 ==

Farequestion, your replies are so short and terse that I'm struggling to work out what tickets you held and what actually happened. That makes it hard to give good advice

OK, let's get some facts in order.

- You say you are "Visiting American" - are you still in the UK, or are you in the USA?
- When you say you got on your train without a railcard, which type of railcard is this?
- You boarded, where? Tipton? And there were no ticket purchasing facilities available?
- Is the issue that you forgot your *railcard*, or that you were caught travelling with no ticket?
- Were you given a Penalty Fare? Is this the "fine" you are referring to? Can you upload a copy of this please, with your name redacted?

the issue is traveling without a ticket

 

[island]

There is a ticket machine at Tipton station. Why didn’t you buy a ticket from it before getting on your train?

 

[Haywain]

What should I do ?

Pay the Penalty Fare. This was issued in May and you have neither paid nor appealed, so you are now due to pay the full amount. If you had come to this forum in May when the Penalty Fare Notice was issued you may have received advice that would have led to a successful appeal but it's too late for that now.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Pay the Penalty Fare. This was issued in May and you have neither paid nor appealed, so you are now due to pay the full amount. If you had come to this forum in May when the Penalty Fare Notice was issued you may have received advice that would have led to a successful appeal but it's too late for that now.

This, I think, is the right advice. If I have understood @Farequestion properly, they hope to come back to the UK at some point, and my understanding is that <EDIT> unpaid </EDIT> fines and suchlike from the UK courts are reported to our border control people: if this matter went to court and you didn't pay the fine, you could be in for a difficult conversation the next time you visit us.

I think you have rather been caught out by a couple of things that Brits take for granted;
- with rare exceptions (mainly London) our buses and trains don't form an integrated system. So paying your fare on the bus doesn't cover your journey on the train. And
- it's almost always the case that you should pay for your train ride before you get on the train. All but the smallest stations have ticket machines and you need to allow time to use (and find!) them before getting on the train.

My advice is to pay the penalty.

 

[Farequestion]

I made the complete payment

I sent an appeal once I received this notice it took two weeks to receive a response in June in which I am told that the appeal time

Is there a way to retrieve this or a portion of it as a refund via an appeal ? Given this arrived to me late

This, I think, is the right advice. If I have understood @Farequestion properly, they hope to come back to the UK at some point, and my understanding is that <EDIT> unpaid </EDIT> fines and suchlike from the UK courts are reported to our border control people: if this matter went to court and you didn't pay the fine, you could be in for a difficult conversation the next time you visit us.

I think you have rather been caught out by a couple of things that Brits take for granted;
- with rare exceptions (mainly London) our buses and trains don't form an integrated system. So paying your fare on the bus doesn't cover your journey on the train. And
- it's almost always the case that you should pay for your train ride before you get on the train. All but the smallest stations have ticket machines and you need to allow time to use (and find!) them before getting on the train.

My advice is to pay the penalty.

How does one appeal to t the funds refunded?

 

[skyhigh]

I made the complete payment

I sent an appeal once I received this notice it took two weeks to receive a response in June in which I am told that the appeal time

Is there a way to retrieve this or a portion of it as a refund via an appeal ? Given this arrived to me late

a copy of their response is included

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jul 2023 ==


How does one appeal to t the funds refunded?

You should have been given a piece of paper that had instructions on to appeal on the day you were stopped. Were you?

 

[AlterEgo]

In any case OP, the 14 day timescale for the payment has now lapsed and you should pay the penalty today without further ado. You had no ticket, and it is too late now to argue any technicalities which may or may not exist. It is still unclear exactly what the facts of the case are.

 

[Haywain]

I sent an appeal once I received this notice it took two weeks to receive a response in June in which I am told that the appeal time

Is there a way to retrieve this or a portion of it as a refund via an appeal ? Given this arrived to me late

You were issued a Penalty Fare and would have been given the Penalty Fare Notice at the time (on the train, for example). You then had 21 days to appeal or pay the reduced amount. As you did neither you became liable to pay the full amount of the PFN, which you state you have done.

How does one appeal to t the funds refunded?

One doesn't - the matter is closed. You could contact West Midlands Trains and explain to them what was so unfair about the PFN being issued and ask them to make a goodwill gesture but I doubt you'll have any luck. Should you choose this course of action you will have to be much clearer about what was unfair about the Penalty Fare than you have been here - I doubt I am alone in being unable to piece together what actually happened.

 

[Farequestion]

You were issued a Penalty Fare and would have been given the Penalty Fare Notice at the time (on the train, for example). You then had 21 days to appeal or pay the reduced amount. As you did neither you became liable to pay the full amount of the PFN, which you state you have done.

One doesn't - the matter is closed. You could contact West Midlands Trains and explain to them what was so unfair about the PFN being issued and ask them to make a goodwill gesture but I doubt you'll have any luck. Should you choose this course of action you will have to be much clearer about what was unfair about the Penalty Fare than you have been here - I doubt I am alone in being unable to piece together what actually happened.

Which aspect is unclear ?

I boarded the train from Tipton it seemed unfair that The agents did not offer to allow me purchase a ticket

Seeing I spent over three hundred in travel expense it is ludicrous that neither agent considered immediately rescinding the ticket issued

One agent spent time informing me that this can be waived or reduced

I explained this in the appeal following a letter the person from whom I rented irresponsibly sent late to me

 

[island]

Which aspect is unclear ?

I boarded the train from Tipton it seemed unfair that The agents did not offer to allow me purchase a ticket

Seeing I spent over three hundred in travel expense it is ludicrous that neither agent considered immediately rescinding the ticket issued

One agent spent time informing me that this can be waived or reduced

I explained this in the appeal following a letter the person from whom I rented irresponsibly sent late to me

I ask for the third time – why did you not buy a ticket from the ticket machine at Tipton before boarding?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

The one thing that I think can usefully be added is that when you next come back to the UK, please let us know, and your (broad) travel plans. We may be able to help you find ways to get good value from the buses and trains but without running into problems as you did on your recent visit.

 

[Haywain]

One agent spent time informing me that this can be waived or reduced

That was true - it could be waived if you appealed within the time allowed or reduced if paid within that time. You did neither.

 

[pedr]

In addition, why did you not make contact with the train company immediately, following the instructions on the notice given to you on the train? Then you would not have had to wait for a letter to arrive and be sent on to you.

 

[skyhigh]

I explained this in the appeal following a letter the person from whom I rented irresponsibly sent late to me

Again, you were given instructions on how to appeal when you were stopped on the day. The fact you didn't get the reminder letter until it was too late makes no difference.

It's your own fault you didn't appeal. You had everything you needed to do so given to you in person.

 

[AlterEgo]

Again, you were given instructions on how to appeal when you were stopped on the day. The fact you didn't get the reminder letter until it was too late makes no difference.

It's your own fault you didn't appeal. You had everything you needed to do so given to you in person.

And in any case the appeal letter contains no valid grounds for appeal.

 

[Watershed]

Mod note:

As it's apparent that there is little more the OP can now do other than complain to West Midlands Trains, it's time for this thread to be locked.

If the OP has any further questions or updates, they can select the "Report" button underneath this comment and ask for the thread to be reopened.