Future of Ticket Office Consultations launched

[davews]

Those of you who signed the government petition mentioned up thread will now have received an email response. Not impressed, they have said absolutely nothing that was not in the consultation documents and no suggestion they are going to change anything whatsoever.

Petition: Require train operators keep ticket offices and platform staff at train stations

We want the Government to require train operators keep ticket offices and platform staff at train stations, to help maintain health and safety standards and customer information.

petition.parliament.uk

The rail industry must modernise to provide the service passengers deserve, moving staff from behind
the ticket office screens. Train operators are consulting passengers on the proposed changes.

There has been a significant shift in the way passengers purchase tickets, with just one in every
ten transactions taking place at a ticket office in 2022/23, down from one in three a decade
earlier. 99% of all transactions made at ticket offices last year could be made at TVMs or
online.

Together with the rail industry, we want to improve and modernise the experience for passengers by
moving staff out from behind the ticket office screens to provide more help and advice in
customer-focused roles. We have been clear that no currently staffed station will become unstaffed
as a result of this reform.

These reforms will bring our stations in tune with what customers expect from other, modern and
responsive services, including supermarkets and banks, where customer assistants help with
information, support and making digital transactions on the shop floor. To propose any changes to
the opening hours of a station ticket office, or to propose its closure, train operating companies
must follow the longstanding process set out in the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement (TSA).

Train operators must consult on any proposed changes, advertising them at the relevant stations and
inviting members of the public who wish to comment on the proposal to write to the relevant
passenger body (Transport Focus or London TravelWatch) within a 21-day public consultation period.

Under the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement, when proposing major changes to ticket office opening
hours (including closures) operators are required to take into account the adequacy of the proposed
alternatives in relation to the needs of passengers who are disabled, and to include this in the
notice of the proposal sent to other operators and passenger groups. We would also expect operators
to consider other equality-related needs, and to make this clear in their consultation.

 

[VItraveller]

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== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jul 2023 ==

As a blind railway user, i’m obviously incredibly concerned about these proposals.
I rely on station staff to assist me in making my journeys, and I think reducing ticket office hours will mean a lessening of staff presence overall in stations.
I’m also not sure how I am going to find these roving staff members, I’ll have to go traipsing around train stations looking for someone to help me rather than just meeting at the ticket office.
What did find interesting though is that doug paulley who has a habit of winning disability related cases is considering legal action, and many disability groups have written to the EHRC.
I think he has a rocksolid case if he goes ahead with it and I don’t really see how the train companies can continue to meet their obligation to assist disable passengers if so many more of their stations will be unstaffed moving forward.

 

[AlterEgo]

Those of you who signed the government petition mentioned up thread will now have received an email response. Not impressed, they have said absolutely nothing that was not in the consultation documents and no suggestion they are going to change anything whatsoever.

Surely that can't be right, I was told by a very clever poster in this thread that consultation responses are taken seriously (!)

It's likely there will be pre-costed, token concessions for political reasons so they can say "oh we've listened" but anyone who has faith in the consultation process and/or thinks the ridiculous 21 day window is somehow acceptable for such a massive change is at best very naive.

 

[driverd]

Can I ask why does that make any difference for stations like Barnstaple where the only reaslitic place for a member of staff to locate themselves, apart from behind the the ticket office window, is right infront of the ticket office window (1m away from where they were before, but now in the way of passengers access to the platform)?

The main difference is the communication - having someone that you can talk to, face to face, is simply easier than when someone is behind a glass screen, especially when the little microphone that's at many stations is added into the mix.

As someone who has relatively good hearing and 20/20 vision, I can sometimes really struggle to communicate with colleagues behind the ticket office window, so I dread to think how difficult it may be for those with disabilities.

The other side to this is moving staff to where they're needed. Again, as a member of staff (who, admittedly isn't ticket trained anymore), I can often struggle with TVMs (on the odd occasion I use one, say when buying a friend a ticket etc), so having a member of staff on hand to help or issue a ticket to me without me having to use the machine (eg: with a star mobile machine) is certainly a useful move - more useful than them being behind the glass of a ticket window. I don't doubt the statistics - I feel like around 10% of tickets being bought from an office is probably relatively accurate. On this basis, something has to change as to how ticket office staff are deployed.

How does that make it any more friendly to customers or move the industry in any direction really?

As stated above. Even banks, with their security protocol, have generally moved away from glass screens and awkward microphones - most are now open plan and staff come to assist you face to face. There's absolutely no reason that ticket offices shouldn't move in that direction.

Or even larger stations given those would have ticket barriers so the areas staff could be situated in order to help with ticket sales is pretty limited anyway! The whole "move staff out from behind counters" narrative is just total rubbish intended to smokescreen the public from the reality - that any such changes will result in less staff available at stations.

I absolutely agree that this is being used as an excuse to make staffing cuts and I totally do not support that.

 

[SuspectUsual]

having someone that you can talk to, face to face, is simply easier than when someone is behind a glass screen, especially when the little microphone that's at many stations is added into the mix.

So remove the glass screens

 

[driverd]

So remove the glass screens

But, as stated further down in my post, if 90% of people are using tvms/m tickets, is it right to have people sat behind computers, or would we be better to have them on hand to assist at tvms etc?

That's not intended as a rhetorical question - I can see the merit in both approaches and would be interested in what you think. From the perspective that there's clearly an agenda to close ticket offices etc, I'd say having a good staffing level at tvms and on hand to assist around the station more generally is a reasonable compromise solution. What appears to have come to fruition in the consultation documents, however, is far from a compromise solution.

 

[yorksrob]

But, as stated further down in my post, if 90% of people are using tvms/m tickets, is it right to have people sat behind computers, or would we be better to have them on hand to assist at tvms etc?

That's not intended as a rhetorical question - I can see the merit in both approaches and would be interested in what you think. From the perspective that there's clearly an agenda to close ticket offices etc, I'd say having a good staffing level at tvms and on hand to assist around the station more generally is a reasonable compromise solution. What appears to have come to fruition in the consultation documents, however, is far from a compromise solution.

I think that a lot of people using ticket offices are wanting advice on the cheapest fare/best route etc, therefore while at somewhere like Leeds (as an example) it might be worthwhile to deploy some staff to man the TVM's, having someone with everything to hand in a known location (with or without a glass screen) makes sense.

A policy genuinely looking to shape staffing around people's needs would be seeking this balance.

Also for smaller stations, a set up as at Appleby, where the member of staff mans the ticket office some of the time, but can also be out and about the station keeping things tidy and helping people, would be suitable.

 

[SuspectUsual]

I'd say having a good staffing level at tvms

Laudable but impractical? The two staffed stations nearest me both have two sets of two TVMs, at one they’re on opposite platforms separated by a subway, at the other one set is on the platform and the other is in the subway so they’re not even visible from each other. How does a customer know where the member of staff is? How does the member of staff prioritise when there are people needing help at both sets of machines. A redesigned, more open ticket office provides a focal point and certainty to the customer as to where they can get help

 

[WelshBluebird]

The main difference is the communication - having someone that you can talk to, face to face, is simply easier than when someone is behind a glass screen, especially when the little microphone that's at many stations is added into the mix.

Then remove the glass screens if those are your issue.

The other side to this is moving staff to where they're needed. Again, as a member of staff (who, admittedly isn't ticket trained anymore), I can often struggle with TVMs (on the odd occasion I use one, say when buying a friend a ticket etc), so having a member of staff on hand to help or issue a ticket to me without me having to use the machine (eg: with a star mobile machine) is certainly a useful move - more useful than them being behind the glass of a ticket window.

I used Barnstaple as my example on purpose. The TVM is literally a couple of meteres from the ticket office window. If someone is having issues with the machine they can simply take two steps and be at the ticket office window talking to a human. And again I'll repeat that at Barnstaple, if you move the member of staff outside of the ticket office they will literally just be stood the other aide of the ticket office window anyway. It literally makes no real world difference so why do it? (Apart from an excuse to cut that member of staff eventually).

I don't doubt the statistics - I feel like around 10% of tickets being bought from an office is probably relatively accurate. On this basis, something has to change as to how ticket office staff are deployed

Again I used Barnstaple as an example on purpose. The ticket office use is almost 50% there.

As stated above. Even banks, with their security protocol, have generally moved away from glass screens and awkward microphones - most are now open plan and staff come to assist you face to face. There's absolutely no reason that ticket offices shouldn't move in that direction.

And even banks, at least the ones I've been in recently, still have the main desks where you queue up to be seen. Again your main problem seems to be the windows and microphones but you can get rid off them but still keep the ticket offices.

I absolutely agree that this is being used as an excuse to make staffing cuts and I totally do not support that.

But you are making the arguments for precisely that.

 

[yorksrob]

Indeed. When even those bastions of capitalism, banks and supermarkets haven't completely got rid of their staffed desks/checkouts, it suggests that to do so for railway passengers would be a step too far.

 

[Backroom_boy]

Indeed. When even those bastions of capitalism, banks and supermarkets haven't completely got rid of their staffed desks/checkouts, it suggests that to do so for railway passengers would be a step too far.

Give it a couple of years; have you seen the Amazon shops where you just pick stuff off the shelf and leave? Apart from shelf stackers they just have a body on the gateline

 

[SuspectUsual]

Give it a couple of years; have you seen the Amazon shops where you just pick stuff off the shelf and leave? Apart from shelf stackers they just have a body on the gateline

Do Amazon sell single brand only advance purchase boxes of cornflakes in their grocery stores?

 

[yorksrob]

Give it a couple of years; have you seen the Amazon shops where you just pick stuff off the shelf and leave? Apart from shelf stackers they just have a body on the gateline

I can't say that I have. The most "Tomorrow's Worldy" shop I've used is Argos.

 

[driverd]

A policy genuinely looking to shape staffing around people's needs would be seeking this balance.

I think, herein lies the main problem. Nothing here is user focused and its a real missed opportunity to modernise in any helpful sense. I completely echo your sentiments more generally.

Also for smaller stations, a set up as at Appleby, where the member of staff mans the ticket office some of the time, but can also be out and about the station keeping things tidy and helping people, would be suitable.

And for me, this is exactly the approach that should have been taken; something like what the re-profiled role could look like. Unfortunately it's not ended up that way.

Laudable but impractical? The two staffed stations nearest me both have two sets of two TVMs, at one they’re on opposite platforms separated by a subway, at the other one set is on the platform and the other is in the subway so they’re not even visible from each other. How does a customer know where the member of staff is? How does the member of staff prioritise when there are people needing help at both sets of machines. A redesigned, more open ticket office provides a focal point and certainty to the customer as to where they can get help

Absolutely agree, again. A one size fits all solution isnt going to work everywhere and in these cases, perhaps something like a supermarket call for assistance button could help attract staff? In fairness, it's a bit of a moot point anyway as the stations will likely only be staff for a few, token gesture hours a day.

Then remove the glass screens if those are your issue.

I know I made this point a lot - but I just think its a good focal point for how lethargic the industry is when it comes to moving with the times. They should have been done away with years ago.

I used Barnstaple as my example on purpose. The TVM is literally a couple of meteres from the ticket office window. If someone is having issues with the machine they can simply take two steps and be at the ticket office window talking to a human. And again I'll repeat that at Barnstaple, if you move the member of staff outside of the ticket office they will literally just be stood the other aide of the ticket office window anyway. It literally makes no real world difference so why do it? (Apart from an excuse to cut that member of staff eventually).

Again I used Barnstaple as an example on purpose. The ticket office use is almost 50% there.

I can't really speak for Barnstaple as I'm not familiar with it. As I say, a one size fits all approach is never going to work everywhere and clearly, Barnstaple seems to have a strong case for maintaining its ticket office, especially if the usage data is accurate (although, I would challenge the 50% figure - surely TVM and m-tickets account for more than 50% of all ticket sales from BNP?)

And even banks, at least the ones I've been in recently, still have the main desks where you queue up to be seen. Again your main problem seems to be the windows and microphones but you can get rid off them but still keep the ticket offices.

I think you may be missing my point a little - I'm not saying all ticket offices should be shut because of the glass - I'm saying the glass is just one of the many archaic practises that really do need to change and move with the times. I think, at the stations I use, more staff out on the concourse can only be a positive step. There's too many situations of staff cubby-holing themselves in and making it very difficult to find someone, and it makes you feel like a burden when you do (and I say this as traincrew).

But you are making the arguments for precisely that.

I don’t think that's fair. Suggesting that there is scope to modernise a role and change practices does not equate to endorsing de-staffing. I've made the point repeatedly that I'm in favour of more staff, who are more accessible.

 

[Halwynd]

Give it a couple of years; have you seen the Amazon shops where you just pick stuff off the shelf and leave? Apart from shelf stackers they just have a body on the gateline

Amazon have paused roll-out of these dreadful outlets because of 'disappointing' sales.

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On the subject of booking offices, I prefer the glass screens. The ticket area looks better and they serve a useful purpose for staff. A booking office near to me still has the circular revolving part of the desk, operated with a lever, for tickets to be issued and exchanged for cash payment if that is how the passenger is paying. Do they have a formal name?

 

[yorksrob]

On the subject of booking offices, I prefer the glass screens. The ticket area looks better and they serve a useful purpose for staff. A booking office near to me still has the circular revolving part of the desk, operated with a lever, where tickets are exchanged for cash payment. Do they have a formal name?

Ah, the good old NSE days

Not seen one in years !

 

[Halwynd]

Ah, the good old NSE days

Not seen one in years !

Probably sounds silly, but it always brings a smile to my face when I use that particular booking office. Nostalgia and all that...

 

[yorksrob]

Probably sounds silly, but it always brings a smile to my face when I use that particular booking office. Nostalgia and all that...

Absolutely (not silly ) !

 

[WelshBluebird]

I know I made this point a lot - but I just think its a good focal point for how lethargic the industry is when it comes to moving with the times. They should have been done away with years ago.

But again I don't see why that is linked to closing ticket offices. I agree there's quite a lot of things the industry needs to do, even around how ticket offices are run, but closing them totally is simply the wrong approach.

I can't really speak for Barnstaple as I'm not familiar with it. As I say, a one size fits all approach is never going to work everywhere and clearly, Barnstaple seems to have a strong case for maintaining its ticket office, especially if the usage data is accurate (although, I would challenge the 50% figure - surely TVM and m-tickets account for more than 50% of all ticket sales from BNP?)

I'm just going on GWR's own numbers that say 45.5% of ticket sales form Barnstaple are from the ticket office (5.5% being from the TVM and 49% being online - if anything those numbers suggest we keep the ticket office and get rid of the TVM) - https://www.gwr.com/-/media/gwr-sc-...to-Ticket-Retailing-at-Barnstaple-Station.pdf

And the fact one size doesnt fit all is exactly my point. You say the industry needs to modernise and ticket offices should close with staff fuffiling a different role but that isnt the case for all stations. Ive just picked BNP as it is a station im very familiar with but I have no doubt there are many many other examples. I'd have much less an issue with ticket offices that are barely used being closed (as long as those stations retain a staff presence for the same number of hours).

I think you may be missing my point a little - I'm not saying all ticket offices should be shut because of the glass - I'm saying the glass is just one of the many archaic practises that really do need to change and move with the times. I think, at the stations I use, more staff out on the concourse can only be a positive step. There's too many situations of staff cubby-holing themselves in and making it very difficult to find someone, and it makes you feel like a burden when you do (and I say this as traincrew).

I'm not convinced that staff having a known location like a ticket office makes them harder to find than a situation where they could be anywhere on the station concourse - infact quite the opposite.

I don’t think that's fair. Suggesting that there is scope to modernise a role and change practices does not equate to endorsing de-staffing. I've made the point repeatedly that I'm in favour of more staff, who are more accessible.

I think that anything suggesting the large scale closing of ticket offices is directly endorsing de staffing too. They are directly linked as the only reason you would close ticket offices is to reduce staff. You may not think that is fair but I simply dont see the rational for one without the other. Supermarkets a good example where there is no way we'd have seen the move to self service checkouts if it wasn't for them being able to reduce staffing levels. If you want to increase staffing levels how about keeping the offices open and adding more staff to fulfil the role you want?

 

[Railwaycat]

The government reply to the petition exposes the complete sham and lie that these proposals are:

"We have been clear that no currently staffed station will become unstaffed
as a result of this reform."

On EMR 6 staffed stations are reduced to daily visits, and 10 to weekly visits. Alfreton will clearly lose the large heated waiting room, as there's no way that can be left unlocked and unmanned all day, just leaving the canopy for shelter northbound. The only way that these proposals will not drastically reduce facilities is for the "mobile team" to be there all morning when most people are using the waiting room and lock up at lunchtime, but then what is the point of that?

 

[yorksrob]

Ideally the best thing for the industry to do would be to try and stall implementation as long as possible until the next general election, then make a joint approach to the (hopefully) new Government with some more sensible, better thought out proposals.

There won't be any sense out of this lot, but a new broom might be receptive to a genuine proposal.

 

[Krokodil]

But, as stated further down in my post, if 90% of people are using tvms/m tickets, is it right to have people sat behind computers, or would we be better to have them on hand to assist at tvms etc?

A person operating a desktop can issue tickets far quicker than any TVM I have used. They can also issue various ticket types that TVMs don't sell. Having a fixed position where staff can reliably be found (whether a ticket office window, an information booth, or a lectern) helps passengers locate them easily.

Quite who is going to help you use the TVM on Wednesdays when the station will only be staffed for a few hours on Mondays is beyond me.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Indeed. When even those bastions of capitalism, banks and supermarkets haven't completely got rid of their staffed desks/checkouts, it suggests that to do so for railway passengers would be a step too far.

Supermarkets obviously sell age-restricted or 'behind the counter' stuff like alcohol and cigarettes and thus have to have a human there to supervise or make such sales. Nevertheless it seems increasingly common in city centre 'metro' or 'local' type stores for a single staff member doing things like shelf filling or cleaning the coffee machine and only breaking off to go back to the 'counter' when called over. There is usually a security guard by the door just to deter shoplifting rather than undertaking any other retail process. Recent experiences in Sheffield, Birmingham and Stockport refer.

And as for banks! It's years since my bank had any branches in the Peak District National Park or even Buxton. We have to manage with an ATM at the local Co-op. When I did visit 'my own' branch, still back in Northamptonshire, the other day to undertake a slightly more complicated transaction the 'floor walker' intercepted me as a I walked in, ascertained my business, told me that it could be done on line and the service was no longer available at that branch even as two 'tellers' sat twiddling their thumbs. Perhaps I could go to a big city like Sheffield or Manchester?

 

[urbophile]

The cold blooded truth is the railway is a bulk public transport system.

It cannot cater to every niche requirement out there and remain even remotely economic to operate.
In person ticket sales are at 12-13% and falling.

Maintaining and staffing a thousand ticket offices will make up a significant fraction of the entire rail industry headcount (a few percent in all likelihood), and thus a significant fraction of the entire railway industry payroll.

Given how much money the industry is haemmorhaging, at some point maintaining such an expensive infrastructure surely ceases to be reasonable?

The key question being, how much are they willing to pay for it?

If in person tickets were charged for the fully burdened cost of maintaining this ticket selling apparatus their price would skyrocket. The electronic sales apparatus costs almost nothing by comparison.

It must be 'uneconomic' to install and maintain lifts at many smaller stations, yet this is rightly being done to ensure access for all sections of the population. Yes, the railway is a 'bulk public transport system', but by the same token it is a public service. 'Economics' must take second place to this.

 

[HSTEd]

It must be 'uneconomic' to install and maintain lifts at many smaller stations, yet this is rightly being done to ensure access for all sections of the population.

Not wanting to use a ticket vending machine or online purchase is not a protected characteristic, however.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jul 2023 ==

But again I don't see why that is linked to closing ticket offices. I agree there's quite a lot of things the industry needs to do, even around how ticket offices are run, but closing them totally is simply the wrong approach.

I'm just going on GWR's own numbers that say 45.5% of ticket sales form Barnstaple are from the ticket office (5.5% being from the TVM and 49% being online - if anything those numbers suggest we keep the ticket office and get rid of the TVM) - https://www.gwr.com/-/media/gwr-sc-...to-Ticket-Retailing-at-Barnstaple-Station.pdf

The TVM will sell many more tickets per pound of expenditure on its maintenance though.
Staff are extremely expensive, ticket machines are cheap.

 

[yorksrob]

Supermarkets obviously sell age-restricted or 'behind the counter' stuff like alcohol and cigarettes and thus have to have a human there to supervise or make such sales. Nevertheless it seems increasingly common in city centre 'metro' or 'local' type stores for a single staff member doing things like shelf filling or cleaning the coffee machine and only breaking off to go back to the 'counter' when called over. There is usually a security guard by the door just to deter shoplifting rather than undertaking any other retail process. Recent experiences in Sheffield, Birmingham and Stockport refer.

And as for banks! It's years since my bank had any branches in the Peak District National Park or even Buxton. We have to manage with an ATM at the local Co-op. When I did visit 'my own' branch, still back in Northamptonshire, the other day to undertake a slightly more complicated transaction the 'floor walker' intercepted me as a I walked in, ascertained my business, told me that it could be done on line and the service was no longer available at that branch even as two 'tellers' sat twiddling their thumbs. Perhaps I could go to a big city like Sheffield or Manchester?

But supermarkets generally have a kiosk, so the fact that they keep some manned check-outs suggests that they see a value in retaining some.

In terms of the bank, yours sounds like rubbish (I've never been turned down when I've required assistance to perform a transaction).

 

[tomuk]

Those of you who signed the government petition mentioned up thread will now have received an email response. Not impressed, they have said absolutely nothing that was not in the consultation documents and no suggestion they are going to change anything whatsoever.

What did you expect the petition means very little. To quote the rules:

At 10,000 signatures your petition on the UK Government and Parliament site gets a response from the government.
At 100,000 signatures your petition on the UK Government and Parliament site will be considered for a debate in Parliament.

The petition nor the following debate if 100,000 signatures is reached have any power over the government to compel them to change tack.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jul 2023 ==

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== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jul 2023 ==

As a blind railway user, i’m obviously incredibly concerned about these proposals.
I rely on station staff to assist me in making my journeys, and I think reducing ticket office hours will mean a lessening of staff presence overall in stations.
I’m also not sure how I am going to find these roving staff members, I’ll have to go traipsing around train stations looking for someone to help me rather than just meeting at the ticket office.
What did find interesting though is that doug paulley who has a habit of winning disability related cases is considering legal action, and many disability groups have written to the EHRC.
I think he has a rocksolid case if he goes ahead with it and I don’t really see how the train companies can continue to meet their obligation to assist disable passengers if so many more of their stations will be unstaffed moving forward.

Out of interest which stations do you usually use and which station is closet to you home\work. I apologise for the intrusion I'm just trying to understand how the proposals may interact with each other in a real world situation.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jul 2023 ==

I'm just going on GWR's own numbers that say 45.5% of ticket sales form Barnstaple are from the ticket office (5.5% being from the TVM and 49% being online - if anything those numbers suggest we keep the ticket office and get rid of the TVM) - https://www.gwr.com/-/media/gwr-sc-...to-Ticket-Retailing-at-Barnstaple-Station.pdf

If you review GWRs figures a reasonable conclusion with Barnstaple and other stations is that GWR have taken a more conservative approach to TVMs than elsewhere and if one or more extra TVMs had been installed particularly ones excepting cash the usage of the ticket office window would be correspondingly less. It isn't people don't want to use a TVM it because they can't at GWR stations because the sole TVM is too busy or doesn't take cash.

 

[syorksdeano]

Apparently EMR managers have told staff to remove the petitions that staff have set up about the closures.

If that's true it says an awful lot

 

[yorksrob]

Apparently EMR managers have told staff to remove the petitions that staff have set up about the closures.

If that's true it says an awful lot

They've no business doing so. Shows that that TOC is nothing more than a Government stooge.

 

[syorksdeano]

Knew I had seen it somewhere

Screenshot says :


Staff across @EastMidRailway have been asking customers to sign petitions against the impending closures of ticket offices.
Now, managers at Nottingham & Leicester have removed and binned these petitions.
Why are they so keen to suppress the support to #SaveTicketOffices?