South London still needs the Overground

[Sad Sprinter]

Following on from the Southern improvement thread, and a recent discussion in another thread about LO taking over SE services, I thought I'd give my thoughts as to why LO should still expand South of the River.

I get why the entire SE metro service shouldn't move to LO, for reasons recently stated, but the Overground's original use, to provide greater, radial connections within inner London still applies to certain South London routes that can provide important local east-west connections, similar to how the existing Clapham Junction branch of the former East London Line does at the moment.

The Victoria to London Bridge service could be increased to quarter hourly and would be ripe for conversion to and Overground service, as would the Victoria to Orpington section of SE. Both serve areas with important connection potential such as the Leigham Vale area on the VIC-LBG service and Clapham North on the LCDR route.

At a push, it would be great to replace Thameslink in the area with a regular Blackfriars to Wimbledon via Tooting service, with new stations at Camberwell and Walworth. Or even transferring the entire St. Albans to Wimbledon service to LO - but that's certainly more pie in the sky.

At the very least, the VIC to LBG service should be Overgrounded.

 

[Class15]

Following on from the Southern improvement thread, and a recent discussion in another thread about LO taking over SE services, I thought I'd give my thoughts as to why LO should still expand South of the River.

I get why the entire SE metro service shouldn't move to LO, for reasons recently stated, but the Overground's original use, to provide greater, radial connections within inner London still applies to certain South London routes that can provide important local east-west connections, similar to how the existing Clapham Junction branch of the former East London Line does at the moment.

The Victoria to London Bridge service could be increased to quarter hourly and would be ripe for conversion to and Overground service, as would the Victoria to Orpington section of SE. Both serve areas with important connection potential such as the Leigham Vale area on the VIC-LBG service and Clapham North on the LCDR route.

At a push, it would be great to replace Thameslink in the area with a regular Blackfriars to Wimbledon via Tooting service, with new stations at Camberwell and Walworth. Or even transferring the entire St. Albans to Wimbledon service to LO - but that's certainly more pie in the sky.

At the very least, the VIC to LBG service should be Overgrounded.

I agree. The overground is an excellent system that works very well in north and east London. I would suggest Blackfriars to Sutton loop services rather than all the way to St Albans personally.

 

[MPW]

I agree. Anything to improve connectivity in South london would reduce reliance on cars. I love reading the old report from TFL (link below). Even if only a few aspects are implemented.

I also see untapped development potential at many of the station car parks, for example petts wood or either of the bromley stations. Individually they are not canary wharf scale but added together would be significant transit oriented development, which could partially fund service improvements. I'm interested to see what waitrose do at bromley south, and they also have a plot next to beckenham junction.

That said, bromley Council is still pretty pro-car and local residents (except me) do not like big new developments at least with any significant height.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jul 2023 ==

I agree. Anything to improve connectivity in South london would reduce reliance on cars. I love reading the old report from TFL (link below). Even if only a few aspects are implemented.

I also see untapped development potential at many of the station car parks, for example petts wood or either of the bromley stations. Individually they are not canary wharf scale but added together would be significant transit oriented development, which could partially fund service improvements. I'm interested to see what waitrose do at bromley south, and they also have a plot next to beckenham junction.

That said, bromley Council is still pretty pro-car and local residents (except me) do not like big new developments at least with any significant height.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://content.tfl.gov.uk/strategic-case-for-metroisation.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiMlKCmqY6AAxVkkFwKHbTeA0AQFnoECA4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw0LhAwb6w_oQBPdplNmlvBr

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I see a number of potential Overground corridors in South London

1. Victoria - Crystal Palace - London Bridge
2. Victoria - Clapham North - Herne Hill - Orpington
3. Victoria - Blackfriars via Battersea Power Station, Brixton and Camberwell
4. Victoria to Lewisham via Brockley Lane
5. Wimbledon - Blackfriars
6. London Bridge - Wimbledon via Dulwich (with Streatham Common and Leigham Vale interchanges)

 

[PGAT]

Maybe not an Overground extension per se, but I am all for a metro system which is actually operated by TfL. They have a brilliant track record of improving derelict lines

 

[Fazaar1889]

What if they extended the overground from Clapham Junction down past Wimbledon to Guildford?

 

[PGAT]

What if they extended the overground from Clapham Junction down past Wimbledon to Guildford?

Direct connectivity to Highbury and Stratford matters less when you are further out, especially when it’s a lot easier to get a faster train and change at Clapham

Edit: The SWML is also the target area for Crossrail 2

 

[swt_passenger]

Maybe not an Overground extension per se, but I am all for a metro system which is actually operated by TfL. They have a brilliant track record of improving derelict lines

South London is nothing like the sort of derelict line that the NLL etc was under Silverlink. If the paths are full into the major termini then there’s nothing practical that LO can do about it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jul 2023 ==

What if they extended the overground from Clapham Junction down past Wimbledon to Guildford?

They won’t. Even Crossrail 2 (as mentioned) has never been considered as going as far as Guildford (or Woking), it’s just too far.

 

[Class15]

What if they extended the overground from Clapham Junction down past Wimbledon to Guildford?

Decent idea, but doesn’t Crossrail 2 go down that way?

I think the extension to the overground that would help is Stratford to meridian water combining the NLL with a short GA service.

 

[Fazaar1889]

Decent idea, but doesn’t Crossrail 2 go down that way?

Yeah, I've gathered from different questions that CR2 is the answer

 

[miklcct]

Direct connectivity to Highbury and Stratford matters less when you are further out, especially when it’s a lot easier to get a faster train and change at Clapham

Edit: The SWML is also the target area for Crossrail 2

Not from the South, but important from the North (I'm talking about Chiltern lacking a West Hampstead station)

 

[Basil Jet]

Decent idea, but doesn’t Crossrail 2 go down that way?

I think the extension to the overground that would help is Stratford to meridian water combining the NLL with a short GA service.

The route would be so circuitous that anyone going from, say, Canonbury to Meridian Water would be better off changing at Hackney Central / Downs.

If TPTB want to run more trains from Stratford to Meridian Water, I think they need to build more track because (from memory) the long single track stub from Lea Bridge to Meridian Water is full.

I don't see how making this part of the NLL would help with anything, apart from putting it on the tube map (which they could do tomorrow if they wanted - see Thameslink).

 

[London Trains]

I think Overground expansion into South London should start with some entirely new services, not taking over lines from SWR/Southern/Southeastern.

A good service to start with would be a service out of the Blackfriars bays, with new stations at Walworth and Camberwell. I would have an initial service pattern of 4tph Blackfriars to West Croydon (Elephant and Castle, Walworth, Camberwell, Loughborough Jct, Herne Hill, Tulse Hill, West Norwood, Gipsy Hill, Crystal Palace, Norwood Jct).

The only changes to existing services would be all Thameslink services via E&C (Sutton, Sevenoaks and Orpington) would run through the TL core with the Rainham services removed and given back to Southeastern, and all Thameslink services towards Sutton would skip Loughborough Jct. New bay platforms will probably also be necessary at West Croydon.

 

[YourMum666]

What there needs to be is a London Bridge - Camberwell direct rail connection in my opinion

 

[JonathanH]

I think Overground expansion into South London should start with some entirely new services, not taking over lines from SWR/Southern/Southeastern.

With no additional capacity available, you have to remove SWR / Southern / Southeastern services to run new Overground services. You also need somewhere to stable and service the trains. It isn't possible to just impose new Overground services.

 

[D365]

Decent idea, but doesn’t Crossrail 2 go down that way?

Yeah, I've gathered from different questions that CR2 is the answer

To Guildford? That was never a stated intention.

 

[RobShipway]

It maybe me, but I would say that any of the Metro services that are run by SWR, Southern or South Eastern that start and terminate within the boundaries of London, should be services that are changed over to be London Overground services.

 

[Snow1964]

Maybe not an Overground extension per se, but I am all for a metro system which is actually operated by TfL. They have a brilliant track record of improving derelict lines

I am not so sure it is TfL, but was GLC, and in more recent times London Mayors office that provided funds for improvements.

TfL only ever seem to do improvements when someone else is paying.

 

[Fazaar1889]

To Guildford? That was never a stated intention.

Oh, no not to Guildford. The idea tha Crossrail 2 will serve the southwest of London

 

[PGAT]

It maybe me, but I would say that any of the Metro services that are run by SWR, Southern or South Eastern that start and terminate within the boundaries of London, should be services that are changed over to be London Overground services.

That only leaves 4 routes on Southern (Victoria - London Bridge/West Croydon and London Bridge - East Croydon/Beckenham Junction), 4 routes on Southeastern (Victoria - Orpington, the Cannon Street circulars, Cannon Street - Orpington and the Bromley North shuttle) and 3 routes on SWR (Chessington South line, Kingston circulars and Hounslow circulars)

Considering that there are many other routes for these TOCs it would just cause confusion and be a logistical nightmare

 

[RobShipway]

That only leaves 4 routes on Southern (Victoria - London Bridge/West Croydon and London Bridge - East Croydon/Beckenham Junction), 4 routes on Southeastern (Victoria - Orpington, the Cannon Street circulars, Cannon Street - Orpington and the Bromley North shuttle) and 3 routes on SWR (Chessington South line, Kingston circulars and Hounslow circulars)

Considering that there are many other routes for these TOCs it would just cause confusion and be a logistical nightmare

I suspect that it would be no more of a logistical nightmare, then it is for the current TOC's.

 

[JonathanH]

I suspect that it would be no more of a logistical nightmare, then it is for the current TOC's.

What depot are you suggesting gets transferred to London Overground?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

That only leaves 4 routes on Southern (Victoria - London Bridge/West Croydon and London Bridge - East Croydon/Beckenham Junction), 4 routes on Southeastern (Victoria - Orpington, the Cannon Street circulars, Cannon Street - Orpington and the Bromley North shuttle) and 3 routes on SWR (Chessington South line, Kingston circulars and Hounslow circulars)

Considering that there are many other routes for these TOCs it would just cause confusion and be a logistical nightmare

Even just transferring the VIC to LBG service?

 

[PGAT]

Even just transferring the VIC to LBG service?

It still requires a depot for TfL/London Overground to use, new rolling stock, new drivers and potentially new branding

 

[RobShipway]

What depot are you suggesting gets transferred to London Overground?

I would suggest that Strawberry Hill gets transferred. But I would also suggest if space available that a new depot is built to the East side of London or use the current depot for South Eastern at Dartford.

 

[leytongabriel]

Maybe not an Overground extension per se, but I am all for a metro system which is actually operated by TfL. They have a brilliant track record of improving derelict lines

Depends where - the investment and improvement on the Lea Valley lines is nothing like the scale of success on the NLL and Goblin services.

 

[dub]

Or ELL -> Beckenham Jn via Peckham and Tulse Hill

 

[PGAT]

The Crystal Palace and Tulse Hill routes have it pretty well off, they basically have a pre-covid timetable, but there are many other routes on Southern such as the route via Hackbridge which gets beaten to the ground every passing year

 

[JonathanH]

Or ELL -> Beckenham Jn via Peckham and Tulse Hill

The single line between Crystal Palace and Beckenham Junction would end up dictating the whole ELL timetable, and also there are limits on how many services can be forced through the core part of the route.

I think that if there ever were to be a service uplift on the ELL, they would want to prioritise the Forest Hill route rather than adding another one.

It would also be necessary to find some way of maintaining the frequency via South Bermondsey if the Beckenham Junction service didn't run to London Bridge.

 

[BJames]

Depends where - the investment and improvement on the Lea Valley lines is nothing like the scale of success on the NLL and Goblin services.

Perhaps not to quite the same extent but our services are incredibly reliable - come to think of it I can't remember the last time I had a cancellation or a delay of more than a few mins on my journey. I know it happens but broadly I think they have been a resounding success - plus the introduction of the 710s was a significant investment which wildly improved peak time travelling conditions imo, not to mention the fact that they really hoover up people pre and post match/concert at the Tottenham stadium, far greater than 315s or 317s ever could.