Routeing Guide updated.

[bnm]

Various sections of the Routeing Guide have been updated today, 5th April 2011.

http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-settlement-plan/routeing-guide

 

[All Line Rover]

Various sections of the Routeing Guide have been updated today, 5th April 2011.

http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-settlement-plan/routeing-guide

I'm not too sure what the "March 2011" column means in the yellow pages. Does anyone have any ideas?

 

[yorkie]

Perhaps someone can do an FOI request to the DfT asking for all changes to be revealed to us and also checking that ATOC are adhering to their legal obligations to consult the DfT/Passenger Focus on the changes?

Perhaps someone can challenge Passenger Focus to assure us that they have ensured that any routes removed have been carefully considered, and whether or not PF made any objections?

 

[Mojo]

I'm not too sure what the "March 2011" column means in the yellow pages. Does anyone have any ideas?

It isn't a column. That's just the date of the issue; the last one read ''Dec 2010.''

 

[All Line Rover]

It isn't a column. That's just the date of the issue; the last one read ''Dec 2010.''

Oooh, sorry, silly me. The fact that it's placed directly on top of the last column on each page really does make it look like a column heading!

 

[SS4]

Cheers for posting, the examples sure make it easier!

 

[Mike395]

Perhaps someone can do an FOI request to the DfT asking for all changes to be revealed to us and also checking that ATOC are adhering to their legal obligations to consult the DfT/Passenger Focus on the changes?

Perhaps someone can challenge Passenger Focus to assure us that they have ensured that any routes removed have been carefully considered, and whether or not PF made any objections?

Done

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/routing_guide_update_march_2011

 

[bnm]

Perhaps someone can do an FOI request to the DfT asking for all changes to be revealed to us and also checking that ATOC are adhering to their legal obligations to consult the DfT/Passenger Focus on the changes?

Perhaps someone can challenge Passenger Focus to assure us that they have ensured that any routes removed have been carefully considered, and whether or not PF made any objections?

We got a nice 128 page document back in August 2010 following an update then. Can't remember whether that was posted on the Routeing Guide section of ATOCs website at the time the sections were updated, or later.

 

[MKB]

Surely, the previous version of the Routeing Guide can't just be replaced? Surely, each version has to be added with a timestamp, so that you can see the permitted routes that were in effect at the time you bought your ticket, and thus at the time you entered into a contract of sale?

If a route is valid at the time the ticket was purchased, but is invalid by the date of travel, I would have expected the route to be allowed. You can't go changing terms and conditions after the purchase.

 

[First class]

Surely, the previous version of the Routeing Guide can't just be replaced? Surely, each version has to be added with a timestamp, so that you can see the permitted routes that were in effect at the time you bought your ticket, and thus at the time you entered into a contract of sale?

If a route is valid at the time the ticket was purchased, but is invalid by the date of travel, I would have expected the route to be allowed. You can't go changing terms and conditions after the purchase.

I believe this should also apply to ticket restrictions that may change occasionally.

13. The route you are entitled to take
(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(i) a through train;
(ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled
passenger services; or
(iii) trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide
(details as to how you can obtain this information will be available
when you buy your ticket).

 

[Mojo]

Surely, the previous version of the Routeing Guide can't just be replaced? Surely, each version has to be added with a timestamp, so that you can see the permitted routes that were in effect at the time you bought your ticket, and thus at the time you entered into a contract of sale?

If a route is valid at the time the ticket was purchased, but is invalid by the date of travel, I would have expected the route to be allowed. You can't go changing terms and conditions after the purchase.

I am of this opinion too, but I would say that you would check the route you want to go is valid before parting with your cash and thus you would already know if the route you wish to take is valid or not, after the guide has changed.

 

[b0b]

I'll run my diff routines later

 

[OwlMan]

Below is a list of the changes I have found. Unfortunately I have not done Section C as they no longer print each route in alpha order. (e.g. AB+BC+DF is now sometimes listed as DF+BC+AB and SC+WX is sometimes listed as WX+SC. They appear to have lsited them in the order that they to be looked up, but I can not confirm that.

Peter


Changes

[FONT=&quot]SECTION B[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Changes to Routeing Points[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Brough – York deleted[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Burton On Trent – Lichfield TV added[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Runcorn East Deleted as member of Runcorn Group – Now associated with [/FONT]Runcorn East Chester Warrington Group

[FONT=&quot]SECTION C[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]I will post a list later[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]SECTION D[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Changes to Routeing Maps[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]New Maps[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]BH – Birmingham – Hereford via Barnt Green[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]EL – East London Line[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]LG – London – Gloucester & Worcester via Bristol[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Changes to Maps[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Map DK redrawn with Victoria Added[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Map GU Highbury & Islington added[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]SECTION E[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Easements Deleted[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22 Journeys to Selby travelling from Doncaster or south of Doncaster may go via York Travel is also permitted via York and Micklefield This easement applies in both directions[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]41 Journeys on tickets routed AP Wessex & Wales & Borders via Exeter and Newport Gwent or from Exeter and via Newport Gwent may go via Westbury This easement applies in both directions[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]30169 Journeys travelling between Taunton and Bristol Temple Meads may travel via Westbury and Bath Spa This easement applies in both directions[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]300376 Customers travelling via Clapham Junction to Acton Main Line and Beyond my travel via London Paddington, so long as the fare allows travel via London Terminals[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Easements altered[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]OLD - 86 Journeys to Alvechurch and Redditch via Ashchurch may double back from Birmingham New Street This easement applies in both directions of travel[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]NEW - 86 Journeys to Alvechurch, Barnt Green and Redditch via Ashchurch may double back from Birmingham New Street or University This easement applies in both directions of travel with fares routed Any Permitted[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]OLD - 30055 Journeys from south of Droitwich Spa or north of Dudley Port may doubleback between Birmingham New street, Smethwick Rolfe Street and Smethwick Galton Bridge This easement applies in both directions on Saturdays and Sundays only[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]NEW - 30055 Journeys from south of Droitwich Spa or north of Dudley Port may doubleback between Birmingham New street, Smethwick Rolfe Street and [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It appears that this easement has been truncated in error[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]OLD - 30126 Journey from Kidsgrove via Macclesfield may travel via Stoke on Trent This easement applies in both directions[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]NEW - 30126 On Saturday and Sundays only, journeys from Kidsgrove via Macclesfield may travel via Stoke on Trent This easement applies in both directions[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]OLD - 300402 Customers travelling from Selby to Thirsk and beyond in possession of tickets routed TPE ONLY may travel via Leeds This easement applies in both directions[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]NEW - 300402 Customers travelling from Selby to Thirsk and beyond in possession of tickets routed TPE ONLY and AP TPE ONLY may travel via Leeds This easement applies in both directions[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Easements added[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]700088 Customers travelling from Brunswick via Liverpool Lime Street may also travel via Liverpool Central This easement applies in both directions[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]700089 Customers travelling from Brunswick via Runcorn may also travel via Liverpool South Parkway This easement applies in both directions[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]700090 Customers travelling from Caersws, Newtown and Welshpool via either Wem or Wolverhampton and beyond, may also travel via Shrewsbury This easement applies in both directions[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]700091 During weekends only for the period 02 April until 15th May 2011 inclusive, customers in possession of tickets routed Lancaster, may travel via Hellifield and Ribblehead[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]700093 Customers may double back between Gloucester and Cheltenham Spa[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]700094 Customers may double back between West Hampstead and London St Pancras Stations[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]700095 To allow connection from the Bradford to London and vv Grand Central services into Hull Trains services at Doncaster during engineering works[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]700096 Customers travelling from Burton on Trent to or via Uttoxeter may travel via Derby This easement applies in both directions[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]700097 Customers in possession of tickets routed Thornford Honiton may travel via Yeovil Junction and Yeovil Pen Mill These tickets are not valid for travel via Castle Cary This easement applies in both directions[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]700098 Customers travelling from Darton to Huddersfield in possession of tickets routed 'Not Leeds' may not travel via Barnsley This easement applies in both directions[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]700099 Customers travelling from Filey or Hunmanby to or via York, and in possession of tickets routed Any Permitted may travel via Seamer This easement applies in both directions[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]700100 Customers travelling from Brough to York and in possession of tickets routed 'DIRECT' may not travel via Doncaster This easement applies in both directions[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]700101 Customers travelling from Dewsbury to Brighouse may not travel via Huddersfield This easement applies in both directions[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]700102 Customers travelling from/via Sheffield to Nottingham and beyond may not travel via East Midlands Parkway This easement applies in both directions[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]700103 Customers travelling from Purley to stations via Redhill may double back via Purley Oaks, South Croydon and East Croydon[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]700104 Customers travelling from Purley Oaks via Redhill may double back via South Croydon and East Croydon[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]700105 Customers travelling from Maesteg, Maesteg Ewenny Road, Garth (Mid Glamorgan) and Tondu to Pencoed may not travel via Llanharan This easement applies in both directions[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]700106 On Saturday and Sundays only during the period 19th February to 27th March 2011 inclusive, customers in possession of tickets routed Taunton may travel via Yeovil Stations, Honiton and Exeter St Davids[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]700107 Customers travelling from Wakefield Westgate to Glasshoughton in possession of tickets routed Any Permitted, may not travel via Leeds This easement applies in both directions[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]700108 Customers travelling from Bromsgrove to Birmingham New Street and beyond may travel via Barnt Green This easement applies in both directions[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]700109 Customers travelling from Dore via Edale may double back via Sheffield[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]700110 Customers travelling between Redhill and Tonbridge may travel via East Croydon This easement applies during periods of Engineering Work Operations only[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]700111 Customers travelling from Hereford to London Euston and in possession of tickets routed either AP LDN MID ONLY or LDN MIDLAND ONLY may travel via Birmingham New Street This easement applies in both directions[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]700112 Customers travelling from Ledbury, Colwall, Great Malvern, Malvern Link, Worcester Shrub Hill and Worcester Foregate Street to London Euston and in possession of tickets routed AP LDN MID ONLY or LDN MIDLAND ONLY, may travel via Droitwich Spa This easement applies in both directions[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]700113 Customers travelling from Wivelsfield to Three Bridges and beyond may not travel via Burgess Hill This easement applies in both directions[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]700114 Customers travelling from Purley or Purley Oaks via Redhill may travel via South Croydon, but exclude Norwood Junction This easement applies in both directions[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]700115 Customers travelling from Axminster, Honiton, Feniton, Whimple, Pinhoe, St James Park and Exeter Central via Yeovil Junction using tickets routed LONDON, may not travel via Exeter St Davids and Reading This easement applies in both directions[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]700116 Customers travelling from Kennett to or via Ely, may travel via Cambridge This easement applies in both directions[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]700117 Customers travelling from Deighton via Mirfield may not double back via Huddersfield This easement applies in both directions[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]700118 Customers travelling via Wembley Central to Apsley, Hemel Hempstead, Berkhamsted, Tring and Cheddington in possession of tickets routed 'AP EMT & CONNECTIONS' may travel via Watford Junction This easement applies in both directions[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]700119 Customers travelling from Shelford via Royston, may not travel via Cambridge This easement applies in both directions[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]700120 Customers travelling from Shelford via Audley End, may not travel via Cambridge This easement applies in both directions[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]700121 Customers travelling from Leamington Spa to Rugby and Northampton in possession of fares routed 'Coventry', may not travel via Birmingham New Street This easement applies in both directions[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]700122 Customers travelling from Whiston or Rainhill to Liverpool Lime Street and beyond may travel via Huyton This easement applies in both directions[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]700123 Customers travelling from Chathill, Alnmouth, Acklington, Widdrington, Pegswood, Morpeth and Cramlington to Berwick Upon Tweed and beyond, and in possession of tickets routed 'DIRECT' may not travel via Newcastle This easement applies in both directions[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]700124 Customers travelling from Manchester Piccadilly to Halifax, may not travel via Huddersfield This easement applies in both directions[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]700125 Customers travelling from Daisy Hill, Hag Fold, Atherton, Walkden, Moorside and Swinton Manchester on journeys via Bolton, Wigan North Western and Acton Bridge may not travel via Salford Crescent This easement applies in both directions[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]700126 Customers travelling from Bracknell or Martins Heron via Holyhead in possession of tickets routed Holyhead Irish Ferries or Holyhead Swift, may travel via Ascot This easement applies in both directions[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]700128 Allow a doubleback between Bournville and University for journeys between Bournville and Worcester Stations[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]700129 Customers may double back between Earlestown and Newton Le Willows[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]700130 Customers travelling from Leeds to Rotherham Central, Swinton or Mexborough in possession of tickets routed 'Not Doncaster', may not travel via Meadowhall This easement applies in both directions[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]700131 Customers travelling from Wolverhampton to London Euston, in possession of tickets routed 'Any Permitted' may not travel via Stafford This easement applies in both directions [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]GROUP STATIONS LIST[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Runcorn Group Deleted[/FONT]

 

[philjo]

Thanks Collybs.

I don't follow the logic of this one: how are you supposed to travel then?

700119 Customers travelling from Shelford via Royston, may not travel via Cambridge This easement applies in both directions

This one seems a bit pointless as you you have to go via Shrewsbury anyway!

700090 Customers travelling from Caersws, Newtown and Welshpool via either Wem or Wolverhampton and beyond, may also travel via Shrewsbury. This easement applies in both directions

 

[Magicake]

my favourite is definitely:

700095 To allow connection from the Bradford to London and vv Grand Central services into Hull Trains services at Doncaster during engineering works

 

[bnm]

Easements deleted
30169 Journeys travelling between Taunton and Bristol Temple Meads may travel via Westbury and Bath Spa This easement applies in both directions

Now, deleted because that routeing is no longer allowed? Map SW hasn't been amended....

 

[clagmonster]

Done

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/routing_guide_update_march_2011

Is there a requirement for the Minister for Transport to approve all changes also? I'll do some more digging.

 

[swt_passenger]

Does the DfT really get involved in 'publishing' the routeing guide? Or is it just an ATOC/RSP document?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Lots of the "easements" are basically forcing the journey planners to adhere to the routeing guide as already published. For example,

700117 Customers travelling from Deighton via Mirfield may not double back via Huddersfield This easement applies in both directions

. This isn't allowed by the routeing guide anyway, but the online journey planners always used to erroneously think it was. This was probably the simplest way of making sure they didn't. I suspect one or two others may be the same.

 

[Mike395]

I was going by the request here: http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/changes_to_naitonal_rail_routein

 

[swt_passenger]

I was going by the request here: http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/changes_to_naitonal_rail_routein

Cheers, hadn't seen that.

It doesn't seem obvious from the ATOC site that they must be 'running it' on behalf of the DfT, but that linked FOI stuff certainly makes it clearer.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Lots of the "easements" are basically forcing the journey planners to adhere to the routeing guide as already published. For example, . This isn't allowed by the routeing guide anyway, but the online journey planners always used to erroneously think it was. This was probably the simplest way of making sure they didn't. I suspect one or two others may be the same.

I have suspected that for a while. It's ridiculous! Instead of making a confusing document even more confusing, ATOC should be complaining to their software suppliers who are presumably charging loads of money for broken systems, such as Jeppesen IPTIS!

 

[wellhouse]

Lots of the "easements" are basically forcing the journey planners to adhere to the routeing guide as already published. For example, . This isn't allowed by the routeing guide anyway, but the online journey planners always used to erroneously think it was. This was probably the simplest way of making sure they didn't. I suspect one or two others may be the same.

But does it?

If I were paranoid, I'd think that the ban on travelling from Halifax to Manchester Piccadilly via Huddersfield was aimed at me personally, following my recent thread re routes from Huddersfield to Salford, but I see there are several changes to easements around Huddersfield/Halifax/Dewsbury.

What about travelling from Halifax to destinations beyond Manchester? Does this easement apply only to point-to-point tickets, or all journeys via Manchester Piccadilly?

East Coast offers this itinerary between Halifax and Warrington:

Halifax 11:06 Huddersfield 11:29
Huddersfield 11:46 Manchester Piccadilly12:19
Manchester Piccadilly 12:37 Warrington Central12:57

Is this still valid, and if so does the easement forbid break of journey at Manchester Piccadilly?

And in my case, is my season from Halifax to Salford Central still valid via Huddersfield as well as via The Calder Valley?

 

[John @ home]

deleted

 

[Solent&Wessex]

But does it?

If I were paranoid, I'd think that the ban on travelling from Halifax to Manchester Piccadilly via Huddersfield was aimed at me personally, following my recent thread re routes from Huddersfield to Salford, but I see there are several changes to easements around Huddersfield/Halifax/Dewsbury.

What about travelling from Halifax to destinations beyond Manchester? Does this easement apply only to point-to-point tickets, or all journeys via Manchester Piccadilly?

East Coast offers this itinerary between Halifax and Warrington:

Halifax 11:06 Huddersfield 11:29
Huddersfield 11:46 Manchester Piccadilly12:19
Manchester Piccadilly 12:37 Warrington Central12:57

Is this still valid, and if so does the easement forbid break of journey at Manchester Piccadilly?

And in my case, is my season from Halifax to Salford Central still valid via Huddersfield as well as via The Calder Valley?

The Halifax - Manchester routeing "easement" is not one of those restrictions which is basically forcing the journey planners to adhere to the published routeing guide.

As regards Halifax to Salford Central, it is open to debate. One could argue that the negative easement bars all journeys from Halifax to Manchester Group going via Huddersfield, but then it is only worded Manchester Piccadilly. If you put HFX - MAN via HUD into NRES it says it is not valid. If you put HFX - SFD via HUD into NRES it says it is valid (even going HFX - HUD - MAN - SFD). If you put HFX - MCV via HUD into NRES as well, then it thinks it is valid. It seems that all the easement does in the journey planners is bar Halifax - Manchester Stations tickets from going into Piccadilly. Whether this is the intention or not I do not know.

EDIT: Even I am confused now. The information above is taken from NRES. Using the journey planning software on the East Coast website (which is generally more reliable anyway) it bars all Halifax - Manchester Group (MAN, MCV, MCO, SFD, SLD, DGT) fares from going via HUD. So even the journey planners disagree!!

EDIT AGAIN: I suspect what really needs to be done here is alter the current fare from Rte Any Permitted to Rte Hebden Bridge, the introduce a new Rte Any Permitted fare at the same price as the Brighouse / Huddersfield to Manchester fare, and then remove this easement. Thus you would have two routes into Manchester at different fares. As an aside, the Bradford - Manchester fares are even more erroneous and cause all sorts of problems in the different journey planning software.

 

[blackfive460]

Not that I can honestly say I fully understand the routing guide but some of the 'easements' seem nonsensical. The Halifax/Manchester Picc one has already had a mention and seems daft as the only way you can travel without using the tram or walking is via Huddersfield but there's also this:

700099 Customers travelling from Filey or Hunmanby to or via York, and in possession of tickets routed Any Permitted may travel via Seamer This easement applies in both directions

How else would you travel to York? Surely not via Hull? Am I missing something?

 

[Ivo]

Just one of seemingly hundreds. I shall choose a random page - say, 13 - and list the first such example on that page...

...it had to be one local to me, didn't it? :roll:

Journeys from Melksham via Bedwyn may travel via Westbury. This easement applies in both directions.

Where else are they supposed to go? Swindon, and then by bus to Marlborough? (Having said that, how many people would do this route anyway? )

Also of amusement is the high frequency of typos. Take the second ridiculously obvious one on page 13:

Journeys from Dumfries, Annan and Gretna Green to Penrtih and beyond mat travel via Carlisle. This easement applies in both directions.

Where the hell is Penrtih? And for that matter, what does a mat have to do with anything?

 

[OwlMan]

How about this one?

30160 WO4333 Eeeor 16 at Romsey and Eastleigh for journeys Romsey to
Winchester.

Sounds like something from Winnie the Pooh

Peter

 

[gingerheid]

Is "300393 Customers travelling via Norwich using fares routed Irish Ferries may travel via Norwich. " still in there?

 

[OwlMan]

Is "300393 Customers travelling via Norwich using fares routed Irish Ferries may travel via Norwich. " still in there?

Yes that is still there!!