Shotton to London Euston - Off Peak Return

[parkender102]

Next week I have to make a journey as follows:

Thursday 20/07/2023 - 07:37 - Shotton - Warrington Bank Quay (for work) - TFW
Thursday 20/07/2023 - 15:25 - Warrington Bank Quay - London Euston - Avanti
Friday 21/07/2023 - 14:16 - London Euston - Chester - Avanti

As far as I can see the Off Peak Return is the perfect ticket for this journey at £103.90 (the same cost as Warrington Bank Quay to London Euston Off Peak Return). However I cannot see if there are any restrictions on this ticket i.e. Break of Journey etc. It does say on National Rail Website 'ROUTE OF TICKET -Travel is allowed via any permitted route.'

 

[yorkie]

Via Warrington is not a permitted route

OUTWARD JOURNEY Shotton to London Euston
Mileage 208.02 (Shortest possible 186.80)

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Origin Routeing Point – Shotton
Terminus is a routeing point

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Destination Routeing Point – LONDON GROUP
Terminus is a routeing point

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Through Mapped Route
Checking SHT-CTR-G31-CRE-STA-RGL-LTV-TAM-NUN-RUG-MKC-BLY-WFJ-WIJ-G01
Off route at WARRINGTON GROUP
Not Permitted: Not traceable as mapped route

As for a break of journey, that's not allowed for the outward portion; it's fine for the return

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Outward Travel​
Return Travel​
Not valid on trains timed to arrive: London Euston after 04:29 until 10:00 (Restrictions do not apply on Fridays) Milton Keynes Central after 04:29 until 10:00;(Restrictions do not apply on Fridays) Watford Junction after 04:29 until 10:20;(Restrictions do not apply on Fridays) Reading before 09:40; London Marylebone after 04:29 until 10:25; London Paddington before 10:10; Break of journey is not permitted. For travel on CrossCountry services use 2V.
Not valid on trains timed to depart: London Euston after 04:29 until 09:01 (Restrictions do not apply on Fridays) Milton Keynes Central after 04:29 until 09:05;(Restrictions do not apply on Fridays) Watford Junction after 04:29 until 09:00;(Restrictions do not apply on Fridays) Reading before 08:35 and after 17:10 until 19:01; London Marylebone after 04:29 until 09:05; London Paddington before 08:10 and after 16:40 until 18:31. For travel on CrossCountry services use 2V.

 

[parkender102]

Ah right. I used to do Shotton to London Euston every week for about 12 years for work but via Crewe. Quite a few times if there was a problem with the Crewe to Chester Service and Vice Versa I would go via Warrington Bank Quay and don't ever recall being pulled up on this. Maybe Ticket Acceptance was in place at the time or the rules have changed. 08:38 used to be the earliest service valid on the Off Peak Return from Shotton connecting at Crewe but I see 07:37 is the earliest now.

In reality would anyone even notice or check? I'm not going to sabotage the trip though - will have to go by the book. Bit of a pain as it means purchasing separate Shotton - Warrington Bank Quay going out and another back to Chester at £13.90 for each day (for some reason no return available Shotton to Warrington Bank Quay going out and back on different days). Changing at Crewe on the way back and taking the direct train to Chester and purchasing an extra ticket is possible although more expensive at £14.80 Anytime Single - but a lot faster. However will I be able to get through the barrier at Crewe with my Off Peak Return to Warrington Bank Quay in order to purchase an advance Single to Chester from Crewe - I suppose the answer is to buy before commencing any part of the journey?

 

[jfollows]

London to Warrington is valid via Chester, so if you have a return Warrington-London you don't have to buy a new ticket at Crewe, only for Chester-Shotton last leg.

JG+EJ gives the London-Chester-Warrington route, see https://data.atoc.org/routeing-maps.
Shotton-London has lots of valid routes, basically the obvious one plus via Birmingham either way and then via Oxford/Reading or High Wycombe, but not via Warrington.

 

[JBuchananGB]

It looks like the solution is the single Shotton to Warrington, and the off-peak return from there to London, valid via Chester for the return. 20 July is a strike day so anybody's guess what will be running, and although I have looked for the 14.16 service on 21 July in the journey planners, I can't see it.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

...for some reason no return available Shotton to Warrington Bank Quay going out and back on different days.

Not really all that far in the general scheme of things.

Ballpark 50 miles, round trip. Can only see (Anytime) Day Returns offered.

 

[parkender102]

It looks like the solution is the single Shotton to Warrington, and the off-peak return from there to London, valid via Chester for the return. 20 July is a strike day so anybody's guess what will be running, and although I have looked for the 14.16 service on 21 July in the journey planners, I can't see it.

Well spotted! Days are flexible so I can work around the Strike days. Cheers for the heads up - I should know better - last trip to London I had to cancel one train on the Strike Day and hire a 1 way car Hire for the day which proved quite expensive but not too bad considering me and the wife were travelling together.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jul 2023 ==

London to Warrington is valid via Chester, so if you have a return Warrington-London you don't have to buy a new ticket at Crewe, only for Chester-Shotton last leg.
View attachment 138981
JG+EJ gives the London-Chester-Warrington route, see https://data.atoc.org/routeing-maps.
Shotton-London has lots of valid routes, basically the obvious one plus via Birmingham either way and then via Oxford/Reading or High Wycombe, but not via Warrington.
View attachment 138982

Thanks - so only need a Shotton to Warrington Bank Quay ticket on the Outward Journey plus the Warrington to London Euston Return which is valid via Chester on the way back. I assume easy enough to exit the Barriers at Chester as a Break of Journey is allowed and 'I'm going to purchase something from the Shop' - the shop being outside the Barriers. It's unlikely I'll be heading back to Shotton anyway as the Half Hourly Buses from outside the station stop 5 minutes from my house and I have a Bus Pass so it's free.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It does look as though the Chester/North Wales-London route via Warrington option has been removed - it always used to be offered, I've used it in the past.

One other option is the Liverpool-Euston off-peak ticket for the same price (£103.90, restriction 2C).
This is valid via Warrington or Chester with no break of journey restrictions, so you could start short at Warrington on the outward and end short at Chester on the return.
The 2C peak restrictions won't bother you on the dates/times you are planning.
You'd have to buy Shotton-Warrington and Chester-Shotton singles on top.

You know about the RMT strike days, but just to mention TfW are not affected.
Avanti usually manage a reasonable service on such days.

 

[jfollows]

OP is only going back to Chester, not Shotton, I originally missed this also.

 

[parkender102]

It does look as though the Chester/North Wales-London route via Warrington option has been removed - it always used to be offered, I've used it in the past.

One other option is the Liverpool-Euston off-peak ticket for the same price (£103.90, restriction 2C).
This is valid via Warrington or Chester with no break of journey restrictions, so you could start short at Warrington on the outward and end short at Chester on the return.
The 2C peak restrictions won't bother you on the dates/times you are planning.
You'd have to buy Shotton-Warrington and Chester-Shotton singles on top.

You know about the RMT strike days, but just to mention TfW are not affected.
Avanti usually manage a reasonable service on such days.

If it's valid via Chester then I would only have to buy a Single for Shotton - Chester, Then the Liverpool - Euston Ticket would cover me Chester - Warrington (Break of Journey) and Warrington - Euston later in the day. Returning I can exit the Barriers at Chester and take the Bus opposite the station which drops me 5 minutes from my house (free as I have a Bus Pass). The initial journey from Shotton is because it's the nearest station but I don't actually need to return there on the way back so no need to buy an extra ticket Chester - Shotton.

 

[jfollows]

If it's valid via Chester then I would only have to buy a Single for Shotton - Chester, Then the Liverpool - Euston Ticket would cover me Chester - Warrington (Break of Journey) and Warrington - Euston later in the day. Returning I can exit the Barriers at Chester and take the Bus opposite the station which drops me 5 minutes from my house (free as I have a Bus Pass). The initial journey from Shotton is because it's the nearest station but I don't actually need to return there on the way back so no need to buy an extra ticket Chester - Shotton.

For that to be valid, Liverpool-Euston needs to be valid via Chester and then Warrington, whereas I think it's valid via Chester or Warrington. Feel free to see if you can construct a route using both:

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

No, you can't go Chester-Warrington on the Liverpool ticket, it's via one or the other to Crewe, not both.

 

[parkender102]

No, you can't go Chester-Warrington on the Liverpool ticket, it's via one or the other to Crewe, not both.

In that case for the journey it would be:

Thursday 20/07/2023 - 07:37 - Shotton - Warrington Bank Quay (for work) - TFW - Anytime Day Single £13.90

Thursday 20/07/2023 - 15:25 - Warrington Bank Quay - London Euston - Avanti
Friday 21/07/2023 - 14:16 - London Euston - Chester - Avanti
(both covered via the Liverpool to London Euston Off Peak Return £103.90

Alighting at Chester and Break of Journey allowed - Bus Home opposite Chester Station (Free with Bus Pass)

This way saves the need to also purchase a Crewe to Chester Anytime Day Single Fare for £14.80 which is pretty exorbitant for a 20 minute journey! Buying the return from Warrington Bank Quay would require this extra purchase.

 

[sonic2009]

The Euston - Chester/Holyhead services are not running next week due to the Trent Valley being shut for improvement works, so services run via the West Midlands. This is why the 1416 on the 21st won't show in journey planners.

404 - Page Not Found | Avanti West Coast

You've stumbled across a broken link or you've typed the URL incorrectly. Use our menu to get back on track.

www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk

Travel to and from North Wales

• No direct trains between Holyhead/North Wales and London in either direction
• Change at Crewe for connecting services

 

[jfollows]

In that case for the journey it would be:

Thursday 20/07/2023 - 07:37 - Shotton - Warrington Bank Quay (for work) - TFW - Anytime Day Single £13.90

Thursday 20/07/2023 - 15:25 - Warrington Bank Quay - London Euston - Avanti
Friday 21/07/2023 - 14:16 - London Euston - Chester - Avanti
(both covered via the Liverpool to London Euston Off Peak Return £103.90

Alighting at Chester and Break of Journey allowed - Bus Home opposite Chester Station (Free with Bus Pass)

This way saves the need to also purchase a Crewe to Chester Anytime Day Single Fare for £14.80 which is pretty exorbitant for a 20 minute journey! Buying the return from Warrington Bank Quay would require this extra purchase.

My post 4 above was to the effect that Warrington-Euston is valid via Chester, so this last sentence is wrong, but since the Warrington-Euston ticket is also priced £103.90 it doesn't make any difference. You still need to buy a single Shotton-Warrington.

 

[All Line Rover]

Since when have Shotton tickets not been valid via Warrington Bank Quay? It is an obvious route involving only one change and is often the fastest one.

 

[Watershed]

If you'd be happy to accept a longer journey time on the way to Warrington, you could also buy a Bidston to London Off-Peak Return, adding on a £4.40 Shotton to Bidston single. This would be valid to go from Shotton to Warrington via Bidston and Liverpool, then a break of journey, followed by continuing down to London and returning from London to Chester.

I'd have suggested a Neston to London Off-Peak Return, which would be slightly cheaper as you'd only need a £2.60 Shotton to Neston single, but the outward portion technically has a break of journey restriction (in common with tickets from Shotton etc.). That being said, I think it's unlikely any of the staff you'd encounter on your way to Warrington would know about that.

If the journey time from Shotton to Warrington via Bidston is too slow for your liking, you could buy an Off-Peak Return from Hooton instead, and add on a £4.90 Chester to Hooton single to go Chester -> Liverpool -> Warrington. This should be slightly quicker, though still obviously not as quick as taking a direct train to Warrington.

Northern do sell Advance tickets from Chester to Warrington, so if you're happy to tie yourself to a specific service, that may just be the cheapest and most pragmatic option overall.

 

[MrJeeves]

Via Warringtonis not a permitted route

What's the tool you're using to create that output, out of interest?

 

[parkender102]

Another option (I need a reserved place for a bicycle both ways so the Liverpool - London Euston Ticket is a problem as the Cycle reservation will be from Liverpool although I will board at Warrington which may cause a problem).

Can the Warrington - London Euston Off Peak Return be used on the return portion via Chester? I could alight at Chester and get the bus home from there - in the past I've locked my Bicycle up at the station and picked it up another day in my car.

 

[jfollows]

Another option (I need a reserved place for a bicycle both ways so the Liverpool - London Euston Ticket is a problem as the Cycle reservation will be from Liverpool although I will board at Warrington which may cause a problem).

Can the Warrington - London Euston Off Peak Return be used on the return portion via Chester? I could alight at Chester and get the bus home from there - in the past I've locked my Bicycle up at the station and picked it up another day in my car.

Yes, I already said as much in posts 4 and 15!

 

[JBuchananGB]

There have been some confusing suggestions, but I fall back to my original
Anytime Single Shotton to Warrington
Off-Peak return Warrington to London, which is valid via Chester for the return journey.
Travel dates have special characteristics. Outbound is a strike day. For the return it has been advised that there are no direct trains from London to Chester, so your best plan is the 14.42 service to Manchester with a change at Crewe. You may have to call Avanti customer service to get the bike reservation on the Manchester service. Also you may have to get the seat reservation on that service separately from buying the ticket, as that will probably want you to stipulate the 14.39 service to Warrington. Some ticket booking systems will sell you an open return without stipulating a specific train.

 

[Krokodil]

I would just chance it and use the Shotton-Euston return ticket. I've not known of any guard actually enforce route restrictions for that. If you buy it from the guard on the train from Shotton they certainly won't be complaining.

 

[parkender102]

Yes, I already said as much in posts 4 and 15!

Great - sorry I missed it! 'London to Warrington is valid via Chester'

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jul 2023 ==

There have been some confusing suggestions, but I fall back to my original
Anytime Single Shotton to Warrington
Off-Peak return Warrington to London, which is valid via Chester for the return journey.
Travel dates have special characteristics. Outbound is a strike day. For the return it has been advised that there are no direct trains from London to Chester, so your best plan is the 14.42 service to Manchester with a change at Crewe. You may have to call Avanti customer service to get the bike reservation on the Manchester service. Also you may have to get the seat reservation on that service separately from buying the ticket, as that will probably want you to stipulate the 14.39 service to Warrington. Some ticket booking systems will sell you an open return without stipulating a specific

Thanks - I may change days to avoid any problems.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jul 2023 ==

I would just chance it and use the Shotton-Euston return ticket. I've not known of any guard actually enforce route restrictions for that. If you buy it from the guard on the train from Shotton they certainly won't be complaining.

This was my first thought - although Cycle Reservations may complicate matters as I'd be boarding at Warrington and if this ticket is purcahsed the Cycle Reservation would be from Chester or Crewe. I suppose it's possible to make a Cycle Reservation by Phone or at the Station though.

 

[Watershed]

I suppose it's possible to make a Cycle Reservation by Phone or at the Station though.

You can get a cycle reservation online through the GWR website, through My Account - you'll need to create an account if you don't already have one. Select "View bookings" and then "Make a seat/bike reservation" and you'll be able to get your reservation for free.

 

[parkender102]

You can get a cycle reservation online through the GWR website, through My Account - you'll need to create an account if you don't already have one. Select "View bookings" and then "Make a seat/bike reservation" and you'll be able to get your reservation for free.

Thanks - that's handy to know.

 

[kieron]

It does look as though the Chester/North Wales-London route via Warrington option has been removed - it always used to be offered, I've used it in the past.

The JO+LC map combination (which included Warrington) was removed from Shotton-London (and Wrexham-London) on 9 March 2015. It was removed from Chester-London and Llandudno Junction-London in 2014.

On the original subject, I notice that you could buy a through ticket for which (origin)-Shotton-Warrington is part of a valid route, and Warrington-London-(destination) is also part of a valid route (even with the diversion), but where the complete route isn't valid. A member of staff on one train won't know which train you caught hours earlier unless you say something, certainly not if you use a card ticket.

One combination which would actually be valid is:
Caergwrle-Helsby anytime day single (£5.20 without a railcard)
Helsby-London off peak return (£103.90)
Total £109.10

Chester and Warrington are both valid routeing points for Helsby for the Helsby-London ticket, so the tickets are valid with the trains given in the first post. The morning train on the Thursday stops in Helsby, and the route on Friday doesn't need to go there at all, so there's no difficulty with the split.

Both tickets allow "break of journey", so you can leave the station in Warrington and never need to use the Caergwrle-Shotton section of the first one.