Future of Ticket Office Consultations launched

[yorksrob]

At what point is it no longer acceptable to disadvantage the majority of passengers and the taxpayer (through the transfer of resources to fund services used by a minority of passengers)?

If we invented the railway today, would we have paper tickets or ticket offices or even TVMs?

Does it really disadvantage other passengers to have a member of station staff at a known location where people can obtain running information, local info etc as well as train tickets. If the more synical of us are correct, this could be the difference between a station with a ticket office and an unstaffed station.

@Tazi Hupefi is wrong to claim that ticket offices "can't" sell Advance tickets on the day anyway, for example. Instead what has happened is that they've been told they mustn't do so, in order to justify this round of de-staffing using low sales figures.

Indeed, technically a ticket office could sell any ticket available. Where they can't, a decision has been made.

You are never going to reach the levels of training that we would desire; it is simply not going to happen! But why do they need to be hidden away in offices?

Are you sure it's the case that no-one is to be found anywhere? What journey(s) did you experience this on?

At least with a ticket office, the member of staff has all the relevant computers and manuals available. I don't think someone wandering around with a device could have the same capabilities (assuming they're wandering somewhere you can find them).

With regards to Sweden, I'm just going by what others on here have observed !

 

[pt_mad]

The theory is mobile staff outbased at hubs largely - so say your hub is, Big Town, the staff at Big Town will also look be expected to book on at and look other Notso Big Town, the next station down the line. Technically the smaller station has zero headcount as the staff aren't technically based there anymore, but they'll still work there.

Sounds interesting, have you seen something official detailing this?

Don't understand how they could book on at the majority of the de-staffed outstations. A good lot of the stations are currently single staffed over either one or two shifts per day.
How long will the remote staff work on a station like that per day? The plans point to remote teams which seems to suggest it wouldn't be for a whole shift.
So if someone based at big station A, had to book on at outstation B, work an hour, book off, travel, book on at station c, work 2 hours, book off, travel, book on at station c, work an hour, book off (by now they could perhaps be 20 miles from home.). How is that all going to work?
The offer made by the RDG some months ago suggested station travelling time wouldn't generally be paid except for travel above 30 mins journey.
Traveling in between these stations could be 20 minutes per time but end up with a total of hours of traveling per day surely?

I have to say this mobile workers idea seems to scream to me agency type work where customer champions or contracted security type staff travel around giving journey advice with a phone and doing some luggage assists.

 

[LowLevel]

Sounds interesting, have you seen something official detailing this?

Don't understand how they could book on at the majority of the de-staffed outstations. A good lot of the stations are currently single staffed over either one or two shifts per day.
How long will the remote staff work on a station like that per day? The plans point to remote teams which seems to suggest it wouldn't be for a whole shift.
So if someone based at big station A, had to book on at outstation B, work an hour, book off, travel, book on at station c, work 2 hours, book off, travel, book on at station c, work an hour, book off (by now they could perhaps be 20 miles from home.). How is that all going to work?
The offer made by the RDG some months ago suggested station travelling time wouldn't generally be paid except for travel above 30 mins journey.
Traveling in between these stations could be 20 minutes per time but total hours of traveling per day surely?

Not particularly, it's been in the proposals since they were first declared to be a load of junk by the union - staff being required to book on at alternative locations to suit the TOCs is a feature.

I'm not sure if it's quite all bod in a van stuff - from the consultation I think it will be a mix of people popping in and out of places, and people covering whole shifts. Whether they're the same team I don't know.

Not too dissimilar to existing Area General Purpose Relief staff, and not all that desirable for the staff!

 

[yorkie]

At least with a ticket office, the member of staff has all the relevant computers and manuals available. I don't think someone wandering around with a device could have the same capabilities (assuming they're wandering somewhere you can find them).

It's more about willingness than availability of materials; When ticket office (or gateline etc) staff are making up their own rules, they tend not to want to RTFM (read the fantastic manual ).

However these days all manuals are online; "The Manual" is now known as iKB (Internal KnowledgeBase) and is totally accessible with a mobile device.

The days of printed manuals are long gone.

The international airline industry finished moving to e-tickets 15 years ago

Any chance of the railways industry catching up?

The industry as a whole has; the issue is that some TOCs have been dragging their feet and TfL are being an absolute pain over the matter. See other threads, such as:

RDG Retailers not offering E-tickets (eg non tube, Merseyrail etc journeys)

Noticing on an increasing number of occasions, retailers are not offering e-tickets for journeys, presumably due to restrictions set by individual train companies. Checked a recent fare, it did not allow an e-ticket, even for a toc-specific ticket that did not include Merseyrail or any of those...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[A0]

The whole premise that staff will be more able to help customers outside the ticket office is a total lie. I can understand that fewer people use ticket offices than in the past. But people do still appreciate a staff presence even if they do not plan to interact with them.

And in the next breath they complain about "exorbitant" fares - yet its the revenue from those fares which is needed to pay the salaries of the staff presence "they value" - so are people prepared for fares to go up even more to maintain this presence ?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jul 2023 ==

At least with a ticket office, the member of staff has all the relevant computers and manuals available. I don't think someone wandering around with a device could have the same capabilities (assuming they're wandering somewhere you can find them).

You do realise that most computers are now simply accessing online information - the same information which can be accessed using a tablet or phone - such systems are routinely designed to be device agnostic nowadays.

So any claim "it can be done on a computer but not a mobile device" is utter BS.

 

[Scott1]

And in the next breath they complain about "exorbitant" fares - yet its the revenue from those fares which is needed to pay the salaries of the staff presence "they value" - so are people prepared for fares to go up even more to maintain this presence ?

Fares have gone up, but staff wages have not, for at least 2 or 3 years now. So the fare doesn't need to go up to pay for them, and I'm pretty sure they won't be giving a discount once the staff are gone for all the savings.

This also ignores any loss of other facilities, such as toilets, and the increase in maintance costs from vandalism and trespass incidents.

 

[pt_mad]

Not particularly, it's been in the proposals since they were first declared to be a load of junk by the union - staff being required to book on at alternative locations to suit the TOCs is a feature.

I'm not sure if it's quite all bod in a van stuff - from the consultation I think it will be a mix of people popping in and out of places, and people covering whole shifts. Whether they're the same team I don't know.

Not too dissimilar to existing Area General Purpose Relief staff, and not all that desirable for the staff!

What's strange is that stations which are today totally unstaffed seem to have a message next to them within the plans which says they will see an increased staff presence from visiting staff.

Those for example aren't likely to see a daily presence of hours of staff are they? If it's not going to be a vehicle based person traveling between them in the way mobile cleaning teams currently do then what will it be?

And how are these roles likely to be skilled Vs today as the government claims?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jul 2023 ==

And in the next breath they complain about "exorbitant" fares - yet its the revenue from those fares which is needed to pay the salaries of the staff presence "they value" - so are people prepared for fares to go up even more to maintain this presence ?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jul 2023 ==

In that case, shouldn't the fares decrease if substantial staffing is removed from the industry?

 

[A0]

Fares have gone up, but staff wages have not, for at least 2 or 3 years now. So the fare doesn't need to go up to pay for them, and I'm pretty sure they won't be giving a discount once the staff are gone for all the savings.

This also ignores any loss of other facilities, such as toilets, and the increase in maintance costs from vandalism and trespass incidents.

Cost of employment isn't just wages - it also includes employer's NI contributions, sick pay, employers insurances, employers pension contributions etc etc - the cost of employing somebody is roughly double their salary https://accountingservicesforbusine...much-does-it-really-cost-to-employ-someone-1/

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jul 2023 ==

In that case, shouldn't the fares decrease if substantial staffing is removed from the industry?

Fares are already subsidised - so the first thing to reduce should be the level of subsidy not the ticket face value.

 

[pt_mad]

Fares are already subsidised - so the first thing to reduce should be the level of subsidy not the ticket face value.

In that case, should passengers expect that fares will never ever be reduced until first the subsidy is fully eliminated?

Probably never then.

 

[A0]

In that case, should passengers expect that fares will never ever be reduced until first the subsidy is fully eliminated?

Probably never then.

Well bearing in mind the bill for subsidy is footed by the taxpayer, whether or not they use the railways, it's surely correct that the taxpayer benefits first.

 

[pt_mad]

I'm not sure if it's quite all bod in a van stuff - from the consultation I think it will be a mix of people popping in and out of places, and people covering whole shifts. Whether they're the same team I don't know.

Thinking about it, if big station A has safety critical staff working there today, how would it make sense to bring in new contracts for all station staff and send these staff to outstations opening and closing waiting rooms and answering journey questions from a mobile device?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jul 2023 ==

Well bearing in mind the bill for subsidy is footed by the taxpayer, whether or not they use the railways, it's surely correct that the taxpayer benefits first.

That's the same for the bill for education and the health service. I still have to pay for teachers even if I didn't have kids and I still have to pay for the health service even if I don't use it for 5 years. That's life and that's public services.

 

[yorkie]

That's the same for the bill for education and the health service. I still have to pay for teachers even if I didn't have kids and I still have to pay for the health service even if I don't use it for 5 years. That's life and that's public services.

The reality is that the Government doesn't want fares to go down or for subsidy to increase but if anyone wants to argue the case for either/both of these happening it's best debated in a separate thread. Comparisons with other services are subjective and also best discussed elsewhere.

(Edited to correct typo)

 

[LowLevel]

Thinking about it, if big station A has safety critical staff working there today, how would it make sense to bring in new contracts for all station staff and send these staff to outstations opening and closing waiting rooms and answering journey questions from a mobile device?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jul 2023 ==


That's the same for the bill for education and the health service. I still have to pay for teachers even if I didn't have kids and I still have to pay for the health service even if I don't use it for 5 years. That's life and that's public services.

It doesn't all make sense, but if you're going to have a wholesale change may as well smash things up as much as possible I guess! As I've mentioned before, the ticket offices are just one element. I suspect countrywide there will be a lot of stations losing their safety critical staff around the same time.

I don't know the detail yet but certainly the TOC I work for is proposing to remove safety critical train dispatch staff from all but 3 stations with the Guard being solely responsible instead, all part of the bigger picture.

 

[yorksrob]

Fares are already subsidised - so the first thing to reduce should be the level of subsidy not the ticket face value.

This is a policy choice, not an absolute.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jul 2023 ==

It's more about willingness than availability of materials; When ticket office (or gateline etc) staff are making up their own rules, they tend not to want to RTFM (read the fantastic manual ).

However these days all manuals are online; "The Manual" is now known as iKB (Internal KnowledgeBase) and is totally accessible with a mobile device.

The days of printed manuals are long gone.

I find I'm better using computers at a desk with an adequate display than fumbling around with a small device when on foot.

I just think that someone in a comfortable, well laid out work station will be more likely to provide better customer service.

 

[yorkie]

I just think that someone in a comfortable, well laid out work station will be more likely to provide better customer service.

You may think that, and maybe that's been your experience, but for complex queries I've found on-board staff (whether that be Guards, TTIs, OBMs or whatever) to generally be more knowledgeable and helpful than ticket office staff.

 

[Wokingham]

Will the current tvms be updated to print barcode tickets, the strip is rubbish but the ticket itself is a perfect size

 

[yorkie]

Will the current tvms be updated to print barcode tickets, the strip is rubbish but the ticket itself is a perfect size

As CCST (credit card sized stock) is due to be phased out, clearly TVMs will need to change, but I am not aware the details are known yet.

I would assume that, in line with sales at ticket offices, gatelines and on board trains, they will in future dispense till roll style barcode tickets; I am sure that details will be posted on the forum when this is known.

 

[yorksrob]

You may think that, and maybe that's been your experience, but for complex queries I've found on-board staff (whether that be Guards, TTIs, OBMs or whatever) to generally be more knowledgeable and helpful than ticket office staff.

It has, although I've generally found staff on board to be helpfull as well.

 

[pt_mad]

I suspect countrywide there will be a lot of stations losing their safety critical staff around the same time.

I don't know the detail yet but certainly the TOC I work for is proposing to remove safety critical train dispatch staff from all but 3 stations with the Guard being solely responsible instead, all part of the bigger picture.

It is just mind boggling.

How can plans like that simply be about bringing people out from behind the glass? Dispatch staff are already out from behind the glass.

 

[Krokodil]

Not too dissimilar to existing Area General Purpose Relief staff, and not all that desirable for the staff!

I don't know if it is the case everywhere, but where I am GPRs are paid for their travelling time and they get mileage too. The government wants people to travel from their hub on their own time.

As CCST (credit card sized stock) is due to be phased out, clearly TVMs will need to change, but I am not aware the details are known yet.

I would assume that, in line with sales at ticket offices, gatelines and on board trains, they will in future dispense till roll style barcode tickets; I am sure that details will be posted on the forum when this is known.

These have started appearing from TVMs at Manchester Airport:

(picture shows a paper ticket in the same format as a PDF eTicket, issued on what appears to be standard white till roll)

 

[bramling]

It's more about willingness than availability of materials; When ticket office (or gateline etc) staff are making up their own rules, they tend not to want to RTFM (read the fantastic manual ).

However these days all manuals are online; "The Manual" is now known as iKB (Internal KnowledgeBase) and is totally accessible with a mobile device.

The days of printed manuals are long gone.

That may be so (though in the rail industry printed material is by no means entirely gone - at my place I’m forever delving into historic non-digitised publications to get answers to obscure issues which crop up from time to time, and which have fallen out of current training or instructional publications).

However, do we think that it’s going to be more effective for staff to refer to material, either digitised or in print, based

(1) in a calm office where people seeking help present themselves in an orderly queue

or

(2) in a hectic noisy booking hall with multiple people all potentially wanting attention?

If anyone thinks (2) then I’d be interested to read their rationale for why this arrangement might be better.

Likewise, do we think that a station is going to be better monitored by someone based in an office where all the CCTV views are to hand, or roaming in a booking hall where they won’t be?

Again, the LU “fit for the future”model represents pretty much a carbon-copy of what is being proposed, especially at the more outlying LU locations. If anyone feels this has delivered an improvement to what came before then again I’d be interested to hear why they think that.

 

[yorkie]

That may be so (though in the rail industry printed material is by no means entirely gone - at my place I’m forever delving into historic non-digitised publications to get answers to obscure issues which crop up from time to time, and which have fallen out of current training or instructional publications).

I'm talking about railway ticketing matters specifically.

However, do we think that it’s going to be more effective for staff to refer to material, either digitised or in print, based

(1) in a calm office where people seeking help present themselves in an orderly queue

or

(2) in a hectic noisy booking hall with multiple people all potentially wanting attention?

If anyone thinks (2) then I’d be interested to read their rationale for why this arrangement might be better.

Likewise, do we think that a station is going to be better monitored by someone based in an office where all the CCTV views are to hand, or roaming in a booking hall where they won’t be?

Again, the LU “fit for the future”model represents pretty much a carbon-copy of what is being proposed, especially at the more outlying LU locations. If anyone feels this has delivered an improvement to what came before then again I’d be interested to hear why they think that.

That's all well and good in theory, but back in reality, see this post; how do you explain all that? That's just the tip of the iceberg. The reality is that customer service has been generally very poor from ticket offices for as long as I can remember, and these experiences are shared by many people.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jul 2023 ==

These have started appearing from TVMs at Manchester Airport

Aha; a sign of progress being made in that area. This will displace the purists!

(Can you just edit your post to include a text description, so that anyone unable to view the image understands what's been posted please? many thanks )

 

[bramling]

I'm talking about railway ticketing matters specifically.

I would imagine same applies there too, though yes it’s not my area.

That's all well and good in theory, but back in reality, see this post; how do you explain all that? That's just the tip of the iceberg. The reality is that customer service has been generally very poor from ticket offices for as long as I can remember, and these experiences are shared by many people.

I completely agree that *some* booking offices and individual staff provide a poor service. This is for the rail industry to *manage* and address. If we agree that managements have generally made a poor job of managing such bad apples, why do we think that they’re going to make a better job merely with staff being repositioned? Or for that matter that the self-same management have the competence to implement the changes effectively? Again, look at what has happened on LU - poor service from booking offices has merely moved to a different setting or venue, with the same ineffective management still persisting.

What I would take issue with is the notion that ticket offices *generally* provide poor service. I’ve had poor experiences for sure, however there is nothing wrong with the staff or service at my local station, so we can’t really say that poor service is universal. TBH I can’t actually think of a bad experience at my local station at all, the only slight issue occasionally is that the queue can be quite long (strange when supposedly no one uses booking offices any more!). Again, surely better to *manage* bad apples, rather than simply move the problem elsewhere - but that’s the railway all over unfortunately.

 

[MikeWM]

What I would take issue with is the notion that ticket offices *generally* provide poor service. I’ve had poor experiences for sure, however there is nothing wrong with the staff or service at my local station, so we can’t really say that poor service is universal. TBH I can’t actually think of a bad experience at my local station at all, the only slight issue occasionally is that the queue can be quite long (strange when supposedly no one uses booking offices any more!).

I have to agree with this - in 25+ years I don't recall a single negative experience with the ticket office staff at Cambridge. Over that time I've used the ticket office many hundreds of times and seen many different members of staff. I've required a wide variety of transactions from the trivial to the rather complex and obscure, which have always been dealt with efficiently and effectively.

I'm sure there are poor ticket office staff, indeed I've encountered a few myself around the network, but Cambridge shows how it can be done well.

I'd also agree that the experience of London Underground as a passenger has degraded significantly since ticket offices were closed and a decreased number of station staff have ended up being spread across too many responsibilities. It really shouldn't be considered as a model to roll out nationwide.

 

[Krokodil]

Aha; a sign of progress being made in that area. This will displace the purists!

I wish though that they'd use the orange-bordered rolls, rather than ordinary white paper. I know that it's petty...

 

[Gaelan]

Cost of employment isn't just wages - it also includes employer's NI contributions, sick pay, employers insurances, employers pension contributions etc etc - the cost of employing somebody is roughly double their salary https://accountingservicesforbusine...much-does-it-really-cost-to-employ-someone-1/

But most/all of those things are a percentage of salary! So employment costs don't go up unless pay goes up.

 

[Hadders]

But most/all of those things are a percentage of salary! So employment costs don't go up unless pay goes up.

I'm agraid you're mistaken. In addition to what an employee payers an employer has to pay National Insurance and Pension contributions. And there is a cost if you have to pay another person to cover when someone is sick.

 

[johncrossley]

These have started appearing from TVMs at Manchester Airport:
View attachment 138960
(picture shows a paper ticket in the same format as a PDF eTicket, issued on what appears to be standard white till roll)

Some machines at Gatwick have been issuing these tickets for nearly two years

Gatwick Airport Station

Has anyone been through Gatwick Airport station within the last couple of weeks and noticed how busy the ticket hall is and whether there is still a single queuing system for the ticket machines? There are a couple of new self service ticket machines that I want to get tickets from and assume...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[bleeder4]

Some aspects of catching a flight are good, e.g. true medium-agnostic e-tickets*. Why shouldn't we have the best of all worlds? Less so flights because passports tend to be needed, but I consider it a positive that if I rock up at a Premier Inn all I need to do is tell them my name (and if disambiguation is needed, the first line of my address), nothing at all needs presenting nor can be forgotten, lost nor run out of battery.

* By which I mean the ticket is a record in a database and any reference to it may be presented, be that a barcoded printout or just the PNR reference scrawled on the back of your hand in cheap biro.

It's not very secure though. Anyone who knows your name and where you're staying can rock up at the Premier Inn before you arrive and check in as you. Happened to a friend of mine on a works night out. There should be a requirement to show proof of booking before the room key is issued.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I wish though that they'd use the orange-bordered rolls, rather than ordinary white paper. I know that it's petty...

That's likely to be a combination of two main things:

• The size of the roll (and thus how often they need changing.) Rolls with the standard "Rail Settlement Plan" background are, if memory serves, 57mm in diameter so they fit in the printers used by on-train staff. A standard receipt roll, meanwhile, is 80mm in diameter.
• Cost. The smaller rolls cost 30p more per roll than their plain equivalents, or 13p more per roll than a standard receipt roll.

It could be argued that the presence of the Aztec barcode provides the key security feature on a paper roll ticket, hence there's less of a need for the RSP background, providing ticket examiners (regardless of actual job title) have the scanners to do more than a visual inspection, and the scan gets written to the e-ticket validation database.