Penalty Fare Notice - Burley Park to Harrogate Return

[parkender102]

My son was issued with a Penalty Fare Notice this morning travelling from Burley Park to Harrogate - from what he says he had bought a Leeds to Harrogate Advance Single (£2.90 with Railcard - I assume he was going to get the same fare back later today) but boarded at Burley Park. Burley Park is the first station after Leeds on that route (his nearest station). I assume because it was cheaper than buying a Burley Park to Harrogate Anytime Return (£7.35) as they don't offer Advance Singles from Burley Park (Checked on National Rail for the same journey tomorrow). Seems a bit harsh - he has only recently moved to the area 2 weeks ago although he is familiar with the line as he used to travel Headingley to Harrogate.

So the Penalty Fare Notice is for £103.60 reduced to £53.60 if paid within 21 Days - is there any point in appealing this? The wording on the Penalty Fare Notice is very ambiguous 'Penalty Fare Notice is being issued because when asked by an authorised Person you were unable to show a valid ticket for your entire journey. You have travelled from a station operating within the Penalty Fare Scheme where ticket issuing facilities were available'.

I would argue that a Leeds to Harrogate Ticket is valid for the entire journey from Burley Park to Leeds and similar for an Advance to Leeds on the way back?

 

[AlterEgo]

This Penalty Fare should be appealed if he was on the correct train.

The only circumstances someone can be Penalty Fared is as follows:

10.1 Train Companies are required to ensure that warning notices are clearly displayed at stations where Penalty Fares apply. You may be charged a Penalty Fare if:

10.1.1 You travel on a train service without a valid Ticket or Permit to Travel; or
10.1.2 You travel in first class accommodation with a standard class Ticket; or
10.1.3 You travel on a train service at a time when your service-specific Ticket is not valid (unless Condition 9.4 applies); or
10.1.4 You travel with a Train Company for which your Ticket is not valid; or
10.1.5 You do not have the necessary supporting document(s), where required (for example a valid Railcard or photocard).

The appropriate disposal for someone who has a ticket which covers their entire journey, but who breaks their journey when not otherwise entitled by their ticket is an excess to the ticket which does allow that break of journey. Likewise, for change of route excesses; being off route is not a Penalty fare matter.

Additionally, the industry has its own guidance that as long as clear fare evasion is not suspected, passengers should be permitted to start late or finish short on Advances without hindrance.

The contractual entitlement to the excess is at NRCOT 16.3:

16.3 If you start, break or resume your journey at an intermediate station where you are not entitled to do so, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. The price for this will be the difference between the amount paid for the Ticket you hold and the lowest price Ticket available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to start, break or resume your journey at the station concerned.

And at 9.5:

9.5 Where you:
...
9.5.3 break your journey when you are not permitted to do so; you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

Appeal this and cite that.

 

[scrapy]

Alterego is correct, a penalty fare has been wrongly issued providing your son was on the correct train. Once a penalty has been appealed your son cannot be prosecuted either.

In future however your son should buy the correct tickets as should he run into the same inspector again on an advance where he's started short, then the inspector could reasonably suspect him of deliberate fare evasion (attempting to pay less than the fare due) and could issue a Travel Incident Report leaving him open to a Regulation of Railways Act prosecution.

 

[ainsworth74]

Also agree with @AlterEgo the key thing here is whether they were on the correct train* then I don't think the Penalty Fare is correctly issued and they should have been given an excess instead.

For instance if the ticket was for the 1259 from Leeds to Harrogate did they board the 1304 at Burley Park?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Why is the unpaid fare (on the PF) apparently £3.60, which looks to be the undiscounted Anytime Day Single fare from Leeds to Burley Park?

Isn't the undiscounted Anytime Day Single fare for the journey (from Burley Park to Harrogate) actually £9.80?

 

[skyhigh]

This Penalty Fare should be appealed if he was on the correct train.

The only circumstances someone can be Penalty Fared is as follows:

10.1 Train Companies are required to ensure that warning notices are clearly displayed at stations where Penalty Fares apply. You may be charged a Penalty Fare if:

10.1.1 You travel on a train service without a valid Ticket or Permit to Travel; or
10.1.2 You travel in first class accommodation with a standard class Ticket; or
10.1.3 You travel on a train service at a time when your service-specific Ticket is not valid (unless Condition 9.4 applies); or
10.1.4 You travel with a Train Company for which your Ticket is not valid; or
10.1.5 You do not have the necessary supporting document(s), where required (for example a valid Railcard or photocard).

The appropriate disposal for someone who has a ticket which covers their entire journey, but who breaks their journey when not otherwise entitled by their ticket is an excess to the ticket which does allow that break of journey. Likewise, for change of route excesses; being off route is not a Penalty fare matter.

Additionally, the industry has its own guidance that as long as clear fare evasion is not suspected, passengers should be permitted to start late or finish short on Advances without hindrance.

The contractual entitlement to the excess is at NRCOT 16.3:

16.3 If you start, break or resume your journey at an intermediate station where you are not entitled to do so, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. The price for this will be the difference between the amount paid for the Ticket you hold and the lowest price Ticket available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to start, break or resume your journey at the station concerned.

And at 9.5:

9.5 Where you:
...
9.5.3 break your journey when you are not permitted to do so; you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

Appeal this and cite that.

Additionally the £3.60 (assuming that's what the notice actually says) is incorrect.

 

[AlterEgo]

Why is the unpaid fare (on the PF) apparently £3.60?

Isn't the undiscounted Anytime Day Single fare (from Burley Park to Harrogate) actually £9.80?

That's the Burley Park to Leeds fare, a further procedural error, which was spotted upthread.

 

[parkender102]

Just for info he was on the the 07:32 Leeds to Harrogate - joined the train at Burley Park at 07:37. His Advance Ticket was for that particular train (he's sent me a screenshot - 07:32 Leeds to Harrogate AP Northern Only £2.90 with 16-25 Railcard).

I've confirmed this price on the National Rail Journey Planner.

 

[AlterEgo]

Just for info he was on the the 07:32 Leeds to Harrogate - joined the train at Burley Park at 07:37. His Advance Ticket was for that particular train (he's sent me a screenshot - 07:32 Leeds to Harrogate AP Northern Only £2.90 with 16-25 Railcard).

I've confirmed this price on the National Rail Journey Planner.

Good. He's got a solid case then.

I recommend you appeal based on my post earlier which outlines why the PF cannot be charged, and also point out as others have done that the fare element of £3.60 charged is also not in accordance with the regulations either.

 

[ainsworth74]

If you would like to post a draft of your proposed appeal I'm sure that people on here would be happy to offer suggestions and feedback.

 

[parkender102]

Great stuff - I'll get him to compile a reply based on your advice - would it be OK post on here for a quick proof read? I'll remove any personal details etc beforehand.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jul 2023 ==

If you would like to post a draft of your proposed appeal I'm sure that people on here would be happy to offer suggestions and feedback.

You beat me to it!

 

[Haywain]

Just for info he was on the the 07:32 Leeds to Harrogate - joined the train at Burley Park at 07:37. His Advance Ticket was for that particular train (he's sent me a screenshot - 07:32 Leeds to Harrogate AP Northern Only £2.90 with 16-25 Railcard).

Equally for info, he should have been excessed up to the Anytime Day Return Single at £6.70.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Equally for info, he should have been excessed up to the Anytime Day Return at £6.70.

Surely not? he was travelling on an Advance, and as far as I know all Advances are single tickets. So his contract to travel with the railway was only for a single journey.

 

[furlong]

Isn't the undiscounted Anytime Day Single fare for the journey (from Burley Park to Harrogate) actually

We haven't been told WHERE the penalty was issued and where from and to so we can't comment on the right amount, but indeed see no £3.60 fares except to Leeds which was not a station at which the train was due to make a scheduled call (if it was issued on-train).

@parkender102 - could you possibly upload photos of the entire notice including all the verbiage (with reference numbers and names/addresses blacked out)?
The notice will indicate where it was issued from the wording and the time on it. (We also saw a recent Northern notice with out-of-date boilerplate text that should have rendered it invalid.)

Can you also confirm that a valid railcard was presented?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

We haven't been told WHERE the penalty was issued and where from and to so we can't comment on the right amount, but indeed see no £3.60 fares except to Leeds which was not a station at which the train was due to make a scheduled call (if it was issued on-train).

The passenger appears to have had a Leeds - Harrogate advance ticket (passing through Burley Park but not valid there as it was only valid for a specific Leeds - Harrogate service): it seems to me that the penalty fare has been issued for the notional Burley Park - Leeds journey that the passenger would need to have made to get to the start of the Leeds - Harrogate journey that they held a ticket for.

I must bow to others with superior knowledge of whether this is a technically correct application of a penalty fare, but to me this seems like a fair and just way to regularise the passenger’s position.

 

[parkender102]

We haven't been told WHERE the penalty was issued and where from and to so we can't comment on the right amount, but indeed see no £3.60 fares except to Leeds which was not a station at which the train was due to make a scheduled call (if it was issued on-train).

@parkender102 - could you possibly upload photos of the entire notice including all the verbiage (with reference numbers and names/addresses blacked out)?
The notice will indicate where it was issued from the wording and the time on it. (We also saw a recent Northern notice with out-of-date boilerplate text that should have rendered it invalid.)

Can you also confirm that a valid railcard was presented?

The Penalty was issued after boarding the 07:32 Leeds to Harrogate service at Burley Park (around 07:37) - see attached Ticket and Penalty Notice. A 16-25 Rail Card was presented. The fare was £2.90 from Leeds to Harrogate with Railcard Discount. I've double checked this price on the National Rail Website and it is correct (although Advance Fares vary depending on when bought - I can see fares for the same journey next week as low as £2.20).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jul 2023 ==

All - can you review this the reply my son is sending along with the 2 attachments - Penalty Fare Notice and Ticket:

Dear Sir/Madam

I received a Penalty Fare whilst travelling on the 07:32 Leeds to Harrogate service on Tuesday 11/07/2023 - despite me holding a valid Advance Single (Northern Rail Only) Ticket from Leeds to Harrogate - I boarded at Burley Park at 07:37. See attached Ticket and Penalty Fare Notice.

I believe this was issued mistakenly as the appropriate action should be an Excess Fare - a Penalty Fare was wrongly issued as I was on the correct train.

The contractual entitlement to the excess is at NRCOT 16.3:

16.3 If you start, break or resume your journey at an intermediate station where you are not entitled to do so, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. The price for this will be the difference between the amount paid for the Ticket you hold and the lowest price Ticket available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to start, break or resume your journey at the station concerned.

9.5 Where you:
...
9.5.3 break your journey when you are not permitted to do so; you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

In this case the appropriate action would have been an Excess Fare.

Therefore I am appealing this on those grounds.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jul 2023 ==

The passenger appears to have had a Leeds - Harrogate advance ticket (passing through Burley Park but not valid there as it was only valid for a specific Leeds - Harrogate service): it seems to me that the penalty fare has been issued for the notional Burley Park - Leeds journey that the passenger would need to have made to get to the start of the Leeds - Harrogate journey that they held a ticket for.

I must bow to others with superior knowledge of whether this is a technically correct application of a penalty fare, but to me this seems like a fair and just way to regularise the passenger’s position.

Doesn't seem right - Issuing a Penalty Fare for a Journey that the Passenger did not make (Burley Park to Leeds)?

 

[John Palmer]

I assume that the train involved was a Leeds to York service. In that case the uploaded image of the penalty fare notice confirms that it authorised travel to Leeds. To be valid, the penalty fare had to authorise travel to a station at which the train was scheduled to call. Since the train was not scheduled to call at Leeds, the penalty fare was not charged in accordance with the requirements of the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018. Regulation 16(3)(a) of the 2018 Regulations specifies this as one of the permitted grounds of appeal against the penalty fare, and the letter setting out the appeal should make it clear that this is one of the grounds on which the appeal is made. It is also desirable to make it clear that the contractual right to be charged an excess fare already covered in the draft letter constitutes a compelling reason in the particular circumstances of the case why there should be no liability to pay the penalty fare, as provided as a further permitted ground of appeal by Regulation 16(3)(d) of the 2018 Regulations, to which the letter should also make reference. Including these references in the letter makes it clear that the appeal is made in accordance with Paragraph 4 in Schedule 2 to the 2018 Regulations:

“An appeal under regulation 16 must contain the following particulars—
...
(c) a statement setting out which one or more of the appeal grounds specified in regulation 16(3) is relied on;
...”

 

[furlong]

We need to see the next part of the notice confirming the stations and times (cover up name and address usually in the middle of it).

 

[Haywain]

We need to see the next part of the notice confirming the stations and times (cover up name and address usually in the middle of it).

We don't, because we know that a PF should not have been issued in the circumstances even if the stations and amount were, ostensibly, correct.

 

[JaJaWa]

Isn't there a (semi-official) agreement not to charge passengers extra that start/finish short on advance tickets. I'm sure I've seen the notice before.

 

[AlterEgo]

Isn't there a (semi-official) agreement not to charge passengers extra that start/finish short on advance tickets. I'm sure I've seen the notice before.

It is internal guidance and not contractual, but in any case the PF is definitely abortive for the reasons laid out in Post 3. Anything else that is added on is just icing on the cake.

 

[parkender102]

All - can you review this the reply my son is sending along with the 2 attachments - Penalty Fare Notice and Ticket:

Dear Sir/Madam

I received a Penalty Fare whilst travelling on the 07:32 Leeds to Harrogate service on Tuesday 11/07/2023 - despite me holding a valid Advance Single (Northern Rail Only) Ticket from Leeds to Harrogate - I boarded at Burley Park at 07:37. See attached Ticket and Penalty Fare Notice.

I believe this was issued mistakenly as the appropriate action should be an Excess Fare - a Penalty Fare was wrongly issued as I was on the correct train.

The contractual entitlement to the excess is at NRCOT 16.3:

16.3 If you start, break or resume your journey at an intermediate station where you are not entitled to do so, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. The price for this will be the difference between the amount paid for the Ticket you hold and the lowest price Ticket available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to start, break or resume your journey at the station concerned.

9.5 Where you:
...
9.5.3 break your journey when you are not permitted to do so; you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

In this case the appropriate action would have been an Excess Fare.

Therefore I am appealing this on those grounds.

 

[John Palmer]

Your son is absolutely free to disregard my suggestion that the penalty fare hasn't been charged in accordance with the regulations because it authorised travel to a station at which the train on which it was issued wasn't scheduled to call, but it may be useful raise this as a 'belt and braces' measure.

Also, the letter doesn't include "a statement setting out which one or more of the appeal grounds specified in regulation 16(3) is relied on" and as such creates a risk that the appeal will be rejected for failing to follow the appeal procedure.

 

[furlong]

I'm with John that it's sensible to specify which of the grounds you are relying upon and to include a second reason that's self-contained inside the regulations, such as the one he suggests (IF the part of the penalty fare notice we haven't seen supports that). I'd also go a lot further quoting from the regulations as we've seen some appeals panels seemingly misdirect themselves into believing they possess the discretion to disregard parts of the regulations.

 

[parkender102]

This is all getting very complicated - I have no idea what posts #19, #25, #26 mean if anyone can explain any further. It seems one has to be a paralegal with expert knowledge in the field of Public Transport to appeal a decision and you stand to be tripped up at every stage by the Rail Company. Surely it should be easier than this - bought a valid ticket for the train specified and given a penalty notice that should not have been issued (should have been an excess fare). The average punter challenging something like this hasn't got a hope in hell of cutting through all this nonsense!

 

[parkender102]

The Fact is he held a Ticket Valid for the Service he was on but boarded one stop later (Burley Park) than the Departing Station.
According to the Northern Website Advice on Penalty Fares a Penalty Fare is applicable if a passenger gets on a train without a Ticket or Promise to Pay Notice:

This page gives you advice about Penalty Fares, where they are currently applied, and how and where to buy your ticket for travelling on Northern services.

What are Penalty Fares?​

If a passenger gets on a train without a ticket or Promise to Pay notice at a station where ticket buying facilities are available, they may be liable to pay a penalty fare.

A Penalty Fare is £100 plus the price of the appropriate single fare for your intended journey. However, if it is paid within 21 days, the Penalty Fare is reduced to £50 plus the price of the single fare

 

[fandroid]

To try and cut through the problems, I'd suggest that you find the part of the legislation which explains how to appeal. Copy that into your (son's) appeal letter and under each clause of it, explain how your appeal meets that clause.

Given the number of times that the appeals organisation seems to reject valid appeals at the first and second tries, this advice probably ought to be followed for every appeal against a penalty fare notice. Perhaps we could create a universal template here for all appeals!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jul 2023 ==

This page gives you advice about Penalty Fares, where they are currently applied, and how and where to buy your ticket for travelling on Northern services.

What are Penalty Fares?​

If a passenger gets on a train without a ticket or Promise to Pay notice at a station where ticket buying facilities are available, they may be liable to pay a penalty fare

It's interesting that it just says "ticket", not "valid ticket"

 

[Watershed]

The PFN is fundamentally unjust - it shouldn't have been issued under any circumstances, because the correct 'penalty' for breaking your journey where not permitted to do so is to have to pay an excess fare (which in this case would have been £3.80), not to be issued with a Penalty Fare for £103.60.

That's aside from any procedural (or "technical", if you prefer) arguments about signage and the Penalty Fare itself having been issued for the wrong journey and amount.

 

[AlterEgo]

This is all getting very complicated - I have no idea what posts #19, #25, #26 mean if anyone can explain any further. It seems one has to be a paralegal with expert knowledge in the field of Public Transport to appeal a decision and you stand to be tripped up at every stage by the Rail Company. Surely it should be easier than this - bought a valid ticket for the train specified and given a penalty notice that should not have been issued (should have been an excess fare). The average punter challenging something like this hasn't got a hope in hell of cutting through all this nonsense!

They are suggesting you appeal citing exactly which ground or grounds you are appealing under, and being explicit. This is not strictly necessary, after all nearly every appeal is freehanded like yours, and very many are successful.

But it cannot hurt to include a sentence that you are appealing under the following of the allowable grounds in bold:

(3) The grounds on which an appeal under this regulation may be made are that—

(a)the penalty fare was not charged in accordance with the requirements of these Regulations;

(b)the appellant is not the person liable for the payment of the penalty fare;

(c)the appellant owns a season ticket valid for the journey in question but was not in possession of the season ticket at the time the penalty fare was charged; or

(d)there are compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstances of the case, the appellant should not be liable to pay the penalty fare.