XC Shortage of train drivers

[Train_manager]

You'll need to elaborate.

No overtime or no rest days?

No mechanism? It isn't the most difficult concept.

Does it apply to non union drivers too?

Rest days are your days off. If your choose to work them then it's paid as overtime.

If there is no rest day working agreement then there isn't any overtime available.

 

[whoosh]

You don't "need" a 'Rest Day Working agreement" for Rest days to be worked - Southern didn't have one for years.

An advantage to having one, means the available shifts are handed out fairly - not, "He's always up for overtime, we'll ask him first."

At most TOCs not having one means no one will work a rest day.

 

[Lewisham2221]

You don't "need" a 'Rest Day Working agreement" for Rest days to be worked - Southern didn't have one for years.

An advantage to having one, means the available shifts are handed out fairly - not, "He's always up for overtime, we'll ask him first."

At most TOCs not having one means no one will work a rest day.

Presumably, without a RDW agreement, any RDW would be paid pro-rata and only for hours actually worked? Whereas a RDW agreement would specify things like enhanced pay rate and a minimum number of hours to be paid?

 

[ComUtoR]

Presumably, without a RDW agreement, any RDW would be paid pro-rata and only for hours actually worked? Whereas a RDW agreement would specify things like enhanced pay rate and a minimum number of hours to be paid?

There is a difference between contractual obligations and local agreements.

At my TOC, all salary payments are contractual. Rest days are paid accordingly. With or without the Rest day agreement, it's always paid according to the current pay structure.

The Rest day agreement puts various caveats in place regarding additional responsibilities for employee and employer.

There is no standard agreement and each TOC may have different arrangements. A different TOC local to me had one in place specifically to cover a huge route learning campaign.

They can be a useful tool to help with operational requirements.

 

[whoosh]

Indeed, very occasionally there might be a bonus or booking on fee, that's paid only if availability to work a rest day is given far in advance (two weeks or more), or if so many rest days were worked in a given period. In the former, the company benefits from seeing the availability with an increased 'horizon' of knowing in advance days it might struggle to cover turns. In the latter, there is usually increased availability.
These arrangements don't happen very often though - I can only remember two closely spaced periods in my career where this happened to facilitate a massive route learning programme.

 

[12LDA28C]

You'll need to elaborate.

No overtime or no rest days?

No mechanism? It isn't the most difficult concept.

Does it apply to non union drivers too?

If there is no RDW agreement in place between a TOC and a Union (eg ASLEF) then no Union members will be able to work their Rest Days because no agreement is in place. That means that the TOC will not be able to ask a driver to work their Rest Day because they have no RDW agreement with the Union. Simple.

ASLEF is understandably against Rest Day Working and only agrees it under specific circumstances, eg to cover driver training and so on. What ASLEF wants is for operators to employ sufficient staff so that RDW is not relied upon to run the service. This of course means that ASLEF gains new members (and the associated subscription fees) when the correct amount of drivers are employed.

Non-Union drivers would in theory be able to work but again, if no RDW agreement is in place then they simply wouldn't be asked in the first place.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2023 ==

You don't "need" a 'Rest Day Working agreement" for Rest days to be worked - Southern didn't have one for years.

An advantage to having one, means the available shifts are handed out fairly - not, "He's always up for overtime, we'll ask him first."

At most TOCs not having one means no one will work a rest day.

If there is no RDW agreement in place then the company doesn't have a mandate for asking people to work their Rest Days and shouldn't be doing it.

 

[whoosh]

If there is no RDW agreement in place then the company doesn't have a mandate for asking people to work their Rest Days and shouldn't be doing it.

Whilst I agree with you, I'll repeat that Southern didn't have one for a considerable number of years. The one they have now was only negotiated within the last five years.

A free for all, with no guarantee that the person with the least number of rest days worked would be first on the list to get given one, isn't something I'd have been happy with.

I don't why it took so long - whether drivers would just work them for their own gain, instead of holding out for a proper agreement? I don't know...

 

[43066]

Does it apply to non union drivers too?

Not many of those. None at all in quite a few depots.

If there is no RDW agreement in place then the company doesn't have a mandate for asking people to work their Rest Days and shouldn't be doing it.

Whilst I agree with you, I'll repeat that Southern didn't have one for a considerable number of years. The one they have now was only negotiated within the last five years.

A free for all, with no guarantee that the person with the least number of rest days worked would be first on the list to get given one, isn't something I'd have been happy with.

I don't why it took so long - whether drivers would just work them for their own gain, instead of holding out for a proper agreement? I don't know...

Presumably it depend on the collective bargaining terms with ASLEF?

I imagine there are simply so few non union members who would be willing to go against a RDW ban that that there wouldn’t be enough to make a difference, so in practice the TOC wouldn’t bother asking.

 

[12LDA28C]

Presumably it depend on the collective bargaining terms with ASLEF?

I imagine there are simply so few non union members who would be willing to go against a RDW ban that that there wouldn’t be enough to make a difference, so in practice the TOC wouldn’t bother asking.

And of course the company, or at least certainly those who deal with driver rostering would not necessarily know who is in a Union and who isn't and a driver is under no obligation to tell them.

 

[Buffer stop]

Rest day working didn't get extended a year past November.
ASLEF were sure they could get the same deal as AVANTI £125 just for booking on.

The DFT took the opertunity and declined, XC were allowed to reduce their service accordingly.

This is why ASLEF at AVANTI haven't pulled their rest day agreement as they know they will never get it back on the same terms.

 

[gazzaa2]

Horrific service this morning. Cattle class only, if you could get on a train. Seemed to be a fair amount of cancellations and the services are always rammed at the weekend anyway

 

[Mugby]

It does seem to have been a particularly bad day, Saturday 17th. Looking at RTT, three consecutive Cardiff trains cancelled from Birmingham:

1130 cancelled from Birmingham to Cardiff.
1230 cancelled throughout from Derby to Cardiff
1330 cancelled from Birmingham to Cardiff.

It really is shocking to leave a 4 hour gap in service on a Saturday like that, it must have been soul destroying for Cardiff passengers. Obviously they may have been able to change at BPW but the South West services must have been crowded enough anyway.

 

[Snow1964]

Seems to be very bad again today, about 40 trains are not running part of their route, particularly south of Birmingham

Might be nothing right through to Bournemouth, and trains to Cardiff and Paignton etc also seem to be missing southern end due to lack of drivers.

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[Mitchell Hurd]

The Reading to Newcastle diagrams on Saturdays are terrible for reliability - to & from Newcastle is actually to and from Birmingham New Street and Newcastle. That 06:45 from Reading has been cancelled up to Birmingham 4 Saturdays in a row - in fact it's not run since the timetable!

 

[Karl68]

New job has me on Cross Country services 3 or 4 times a week varying from Cheltenham to Sheffield or Manchester. It’s a truly appalling service, unreliable dreadful trains, always overcrowded, non existent seat reservations and then the ‘Voyagers’.

Why is this allowed to happen?

 

[dk1]

New job has me on Cross Country services 3 or 4 times a week varying from Cheltenham to Sheffield or Manchester. It’s a truly appalling service, unreliable dreadful trains, always overcrowded, non existent seat reservations and then the ‘Voyagers’.

Why is this allowed to happen?

Not sure what the answer is. Unless the DfT fund a new fleet of trains or just wait and hope some 221/222s are cascaded from Avanti or EMR there's not much that can be done. I doubt we'll see any further extension of HST leases.

 

[Master29]

New job has me on Cross Country services 3 or 4 times a week varying from Cheltenham to Sheffield or Manchester. It’s a truly appalling service, unreliable dreadful trains, always overcrowded, non existent seat reservations and then the ‘Voyagers’.

Why is this allowed to happen?

Because Arriva the parent company of XC don't give a flying fig quite frankly so long as us poor sods use their ridiculously overcrowded services. They had a chance of fairly decent Voyagers from Avanti but seemingly ignored the chance.

 

[dk1]

Because Arriva the parent company of XC don't give a flying fig quite frankly so long as us poor sods use their ridiculously overcrowded services. They had a chance of fairly decent Voyagers from Avanti but seemingly ignored the chance.

But the addition of any extra rolling stock would need to be signed off & agreed by the DfT. Operators make very few decisions like this now.

 

[class 9]

Because Arriva the parent company of XC don't give a flying fig quite frankly so long as us poor sods use their ridiculously overcrowded services. They had a chance of fairly decent Voyagers from Avanti but seemingly ignored the chance.

Jeez, I don't know how many times it needs saying, the DfT control the allocation of stock and at the moment they aren't authorising any additional stock for XC, it's all about cutting costs, hence the decision to withdraw HSTs without any replacements.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2023 ==

Mind you Arriva have always just been a tin pot bus company, that haven’t invested anything substantial in XC since they took over from Virgin in 2007, bar the reintroduction of a handful of HSTs.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2023 ==

Exacerbated by XC insistence that qualified drivers transferring must relearn every route! Had this with a gwr driver at Plymouth, went Xc and made to relearn routes he'd been driving IC traction on for years.

The reason behind that was years ago a qualified Driver transfered from one of those small cowboy FOCs (cotswold/ Advenza etc) with a impressive route card, but had an incident soon after joining and it turned out his actual route knowledge was poor, hence from then everyone has the same amount of time, for genuine Drivers out there that already sig the route, it is frustrating.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2023 ==

Exacerbated by XC insistence that qualified drivers transferring must relearn every route! Had this with a gwr driver at Plymouth, went Xc and made to relearn routes he'd been driving IC traction on for years.

The reason behind that was years ago a qualified Driver transfered from one of those small cowboy FOCs (cotswold/ Advenza etc) with a impressive route card, but had an incident soon after joining and it turned out his actual route knowledge was poor, hence from then everyone has the same amount of time, for genuine Drivers out there that already sig the route, it is frustrating.

 

[irish_rail]

The reason behind that was years ago a qualified Driver transfered from one of those small cowboy FOCs (cotswold/ Advenza etc) with a impressive route card, but had an incident soon after joining and it turned out his actual route knowledge was poor, hence from then everyone has the same amount of time, for genuine Drivers out there that already sig the route, it is frustrating.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jul 2023 ==


The reason behind that was years ago a qualified Driver transfered from one of those small cowboy FOCs (cotswold/ Advenza etc) with a impressive route card, but had an incident soon after joining and it turned out his actual route knowledge was poor, hence from then everyone has the same amount of time, for genuine Drivers out there that already sig the route, it is frustrating.

Indeed and I would share that concern with the cowboy operators where the drivers just make up whatever route card they fancy. But making GWR (or similar) drivers relearn everything really shouldn't be necessary.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Indeed and I would share that concern with the cowboy operators where the drivers just make up whatever route card they fancy. But making GWR (or similar) drivers relearn everything really shouldn't be necessary.

Out of interest, as I’m aware you’re a qualified driver. What sort of oversight / verification is required of a driver‘s route card, particularly if they transfer between operators?

 

[irish_rail]

Out of interest, as I’m aware you’re a qualified driver. What sort of oversight / verification is required of a driver‘s route card, particularly if they transfer between operators?

Not one I can answer im afraid as I've never transferred between TOCs. I think though that its not good enough the driver just saying "I sign x y z" but must come from the driver management of the previous TOC. I suspect with the cowboys though, they allow a kind of self management where the driver can manage their route card. No wander it doesn't then hold sway with the TOCs.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Not one I can answer im afraid as I've never transferred between TOCs. I think though that its not good enough the driver just saying "I sign x y z" but must come from the driver management of the previous TOC. I suspect with the cowboys though, they allow a kind of self management where the driver can manage their route card. No wander it doesn't then hold sway with the TOCs.

Thanks - yes that does seem something of a weak link in the process! Wasnt there talk of an independent driver licensing body a while back, in a similar manner to the air industry?

 

[FuzzyDuck]

Might be nothing right through to Bournemouth

Out of 15 due to reach Bournemouth, 10 were cancelled.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Out of interest, as I’m aware you’re a qualified driver. What sort of oversight / verification is required of a driver‘s route card, particularly if they transfer between operators?

Not sure what happens currently but there used to be sets of questions which the Manager or Assessor asked the driver to establish the depth of their route knowledge.

 

[12LDA28C]

Not sure what happens currently but there used to be sets of questions which the Manager or Assessor asked the driver to establish the depth of their route knowledge.

A TOC should have a standard format route exam for each route which would include things like stations, junctions, line speeds, multi-SPaD signals, other route risks and so on. A new starter, even if a qualified driver should undertake the exam for each route they are expected to sign and they should also be given a practical assessment of driving over the route, before being let out driving on their own.

 

[leonie13]

The reason behind that was years ago a qualified Driver transfered from one of those small cowboy FOCs (cotswold/ Advenza etc) with a impressive route card, but had an incident soon after joining and it turned out his actual route knowledge was poor, hence from then everyone has the same amount of time, for genuine Drivers out there that already sig the route, it is frustrating.

For a brief period of time, I did some work for a small FOC. These companies lived hand-to-mouth, and contracts/work sometimes came in at very short notice; eg to move some wagons or scrap metal from one end of the country to another. The FOC couldn't afford to turn the work down.

A short-notice (sometimes on the day) request would be submitted to NR, and frequently they couldn't give us the most direct routing from A to B because of pathing constraints.

I know of at least two occasions were driver(s) for the FOC knowingly drove a route they didn't sign, just so the company could complete the job and fulfil the contract. In terms of route card / knowledge, I was unaware of any recurring process(es) to monitor drivers at this FOC - it was scary.

 

[1E67]

Maybe an improvement coming shortly, rest day work agreement renewed from week after next after 20 months without one.

 

[dk1]

Maybe an improvement coming shortly, rest day work agreement renewed from week after next after 20 months without one.

Good to hear. As long as the the TOCs concerned behave themselves then ASLEF are happy to permit RDW working.

 

[Wyrleybart]

For a brief period of time, I did some work for a small FOC. These companies lived hand-to-mouth, and contracts/work sometimes came in at very short notice; eg to move some wagons or scrap metal from one end of the country to another. The FOC couldn't afford to turn the work down.

A short-notice (sometimes on the day) request would be submitted to NR, and frequently they couldn't give us the most direct routing from A to B because of pathing constraints.

I know of at least two occasions were driver(s) for the FOC knowingly drove a route they didn't sign, just so the company could complete the job and fulfil the contract. In terms of route card / knowledge, I was unaware of any recurring process(es) to monitor drivers at this FOC - it was scary.

Funny you should mention that, I recall a certain driver who drove for a certain FOC. He would think nothing of taking a loco off Canton into Newport docks, picking up empties and working the train through to Stockton or Middlesbrough - around 15 or 16 hours. On one occasion he was working the loads back west, but slipped to a stand on the S&K as he had run out of sand. His solution was to secure the train on the mainline run light to a nearby DB depot and ask for sand. After he was replenished he planned to run back "bang road" on a slippy falling gradient then couple onto his train, and continue to South Wales. Unfortunately for him the Network Rail zonal control were not impressed and kiboshed the plan.