High speed operators should provide Metro driver recruits with additional training?

[irish_rail]

Moderator note: Split from Lumo overspeed incident at peterborough 17-04-2022

Would be interesting to know if the driver was one of the ex Tyne and Wear Metro drivers that Lumo took on.

If so, he or She would have no high speed experience, something that certain Tocs like Eurostar always used to insist on when recruiting qualified drivers.

Bearing in mind Lumo spend much of their lives at 125mph maybe this would have been a wise thing to require when recruiting drivers?

Going from Trams to high speed intercity is a bit of a difference and requires very different skills.

 

[DoubleO]

Would be interesting to know if the driver was one of the ex Tyne and Wear Metro drivers that Lumo took on. If so, he or She would have no high speed experience, something that certain Tocs like Eurostar always used to insist on when recruiting qualified drivers. Bearing in mind Lumo spend much of their lives at 125mph maybe this would have been a wise thing to require when recruiting drivers???? Going from Trams to high speed intercity is a bit of a difference and requires very different skills.

Plenty of operators recruit drivers with no driving experience at all and put them straight into high speed driving upon qualification. The important part is the quality of the training. Also, this incident wasn't really anything to to with high speed driving.

 

[800001]

Would be interesting to know if the driver was one of the ex Tyne and Wear Metro drivers that Lumo took on. If so, he or She would have no high speed experience, something that certain Tocs like Eurostar always used to insist on when recruiting qualified drivers. Bearing in mind Lumo spend much of their lives at 125mph maybe this would have been a wise thing to require when recruiting drivers???? Going from Trams to high speed intercity is a bit of a difference and requires very different skills.

And if they had been recruited off the street? What would you be asking?
They have been signed off as competent, done the relevant amount of hours training, all presumably signed off my the ORR?

 

[irish_rail]

And if they had been recruited off the street? What would you be asking?
They have been signed off as competent, done the relevant amount of hours training, all presumably signed off my the ORR?

No, signed off by the relevant driver manager, who is employed by LUMO.

I won't comment on the other part of what you say, as I am speculating.

 

[Horizon22]

No, signed off by the relevant driver manager. Who is employed by LUMO.

LUMO still has to adhere to an agreed industry competency management system for driver trainees.

 

[tomuk]

LUMO still has to adhere to an agreed industry competency management system for driver trainees.

Yes and it might bear some similarity to the same one used by fellow First Group company GWR.

 

[800001]

No, signed off by the relevant driver manager, who is employed by LUMO.

I won't comment on the other part of what you say, as I am speculating.

The training package that Lumo use will have been signed off by the ORR!!

They don’t just decide themselves what training they will use.

 

[Neptune]

Let me get this right. The premise of this is that drivers who go from Metro driving to high speed driving should have extra training (on top of the training already provided to all new drivers).

What about people from other grades or from outside the industry (off the street is an awful superior sounding expression by the way), should they get this additional training being proposed? Or is it just former metro system drivers being forced to suffer this in-grade snobbery?

 

[irish_rail]

Let me get this right. The premise of this is that drivers who go from Metro driving to high speed driving should have extra training (on top of the training already provided to all new drivers).

What about people from other grades or from outside the industry (off the street is an awful superior sounding expression by the way), should they get this additional training being proposed? Or is it just former metro system drivers being forced to suffer this in-grade snobbery?

An off the street trainee would train for about 12 to 18 months. A qualified driver for anything from say 1 to 6 months. Therefore the "off the street" lot already get significant additional training.

And snobbery has absolutely nothing to do with it. Do you drive high speed trains? I do, and it is extremely boring just zooming along on greens . Concentration is alot harder to maintain for very long periods, and the ECML must be one of the most boring in terms of flat, fast and monotonous. Its very different skills to driving a train at 40 mph that stops every 2 minutes. Why else would Eurostar have been demanding it for potential recruits? Also, I believe that Merseyrail drivers generally cannot apply for say Avanti for similar reasons. I don't make the rules, or say that it is right or wrong, BUT I do recognise the big difference between the two types of train driving , as someone that does both.

 

[Neptune]

So a qualified driver is less qualified in your opinion? Doesn’t get sufficient training? Isn’t as good because they ‘only’ drove Metro’s?

I think you should be directing this at Ciras if you believe they are under qualified to drive class 803 trains at linespeed, rather than questioning their abilities on a public forum. I’ll look forward to reading it in the next issue.

 

[irish_rail]

So a qualified driver is less qualified in your opinion? Doesn’t get sufficient training? Isn’t as good because they ‘only’ drove Metro’s?

I think you should be directing this at Ciras if you believe they are under qualified to drive class 803 trains at linespeed, rather than questioning their abilities on a public forum. I’ll look forward to reading it in the next issue.

If they have zero experience over 40 mph then yes I do believe they may require a little extra high speed handling. I don't think that's an unreasonable viewpoint. As for CIRAS why would I write to them on this matter? I'm merely giving a viewpoint of why an incident may of occured, frankly doesn't bother me either way.

 

[Neptune]

If they have zero experience over 40 mph then yes I do believe they may require a little extra high speed handling. I don't think that's an unreasonable viewpoint. As for CIRAS why would I write to them on this matter? I'm merely giving a viewpoint of why an incident may of occured, frankly doesn't bother me either way.

Well evidently it does bother you otherwise you wouldn’t have said anything in the first place. What you are saying is that you don’t believe certain drivers are up to it because of where they drove before.

Also by saying that you think drivers ‘may’ (slight change of tack there I see) need extra training then you are raising a safety concern and as a professional driver you really should go to your local management or if it isn’t affecting you directly but believe it’s an issue in other areas (which you evidently do) then go through Ciras.

If you don’t believe it’s an issue worthy of being brought up through official lines then why did you bring it up in the first place? In this case it just looks like you are looking down on people who drive T&W metro trains day in day out without incident.

 

[irish_rail]

So a qualified driver is less qualified in your opinion? Doesn’t get sufficient training? Isn’t as good because they ‘only’ drove Metro’s?

I think you should be directing this at Ciras if you believe they are under qualified to drive class 803 trains at linespeed, rather than questioning their abilities on a public forum. I’ll look forward to reading it in the next issue.

Well evidently it does bother you otherwise you wouldn’t have said anything in the first place. What you are saying is that you don’t believe certain drivers are up to it because of where they drove before.

Also by saying that you think drivers ‘may’ (slight change of tack there I see) need extra training then you are raising a safety concern and as a professional driver you really should go to your local management or if it isn’t affecting you directly but believe it’s an issue in other areas (which you evidently do) then go through Ciras.

If you don’t believe it’s an issue worthy of being brought up through official lines then why did you bring it up in the first place? In this case it just looks like you are looking down on people who drive T&W metro trains day in day out without incident.

For heaven sake you obviously really have a bee in your bonnet over this. I've never implied anything at all about looking down, just pointing out driving at high speed is DIFFERENT to driving metro trams. I'm not saying either is better. Personally I'd rather drive metro stuff now, I'm sick to the back teeth of driving long distances, it bores the t*ts off me. So you need to stop implying I'm being patronising . I am quite sure that the relevant authorities will be looking at driver recruitment and training without me needing to go to Ciras about it. Id be shocked if LUMO haven't reviewed there training processes already.

 

[martin2345uk]

For balance, Eurostar haven't required high-speed experience for a while now.

 

[Neptune]

For heaven sake you obviously really have a bee in your bonnet over this. I've never implied anything at all about looking down, just pointing out driving at high speed is DIFFERENT to driving metro trams. I'm not saying either is better. Personally I'd rather drive metro stuff now, I'm sick to the back teeth of driving long distances, it bores the t*ts off me. So you need to stop implying I'm being patronising . I am quite sure that the relevant authorities will be looking at driver recruitment and training without me needing to go to Ciras about it. Id be shocked if LUMO haven't reviewed there training processes already.

Ok, you aren’t looking down on them. I retract that.

But saying that you believe they may need additional training because of the higher speeds they now drive (resulting in this safety incident) says to me that you do have an issue with it. Is this the case or not?

If you do believe they should have additional training due to this safety issue then surely you should be going down the route of raising it as a safety concern.

If you now don’t believe they should have additional training then why have you changed your mind?

I’m just trying to find out why you believe some drivers don’t have sufficient training (you’re suggesting former T&W Metro drivers at Lumo should have had extra training, the premise of this separated out thread) and if that’s what you believe then why you wouldn’t report it. Surely you’d want to know either way if it’s being dealt with if it is indeed an issue with Lumo’s drivers.

Also I’d be interested if any ex T&W Metro drivers are on here and what they think of a fellow driver questioning their training and subsequent abilities to drive at high speed.

 

[Horizon22]

If they have zero experience over 40 mph then yes I do believe they may require a little extra high speed handling. I don't think that's an unreasonable viewpoint. As for CIRAS why would I write to them on this matter? I'm merely giving a viewpoint of why an incident may of occured, frankly doesn't bother me either way.

It reads a snobbery to most. Every driver will be assessed in the same way, qualified or not before they can be in the seat by themselves.

Edit: you’ve now clarified to say that high speed driving is simply “different” from metro. Ok, that’s obvious. So I’m really not sure what the overall point is.

 

[irish_rail]

OK I've no more to add here. I'm not interested enough to keep defending my view. My view is my view. Some people thought Brexit a good idea others thought not. We live in a democracy and I expressed an opinion on a forum. If you disagree that's fine by me. Its not particularly relevant at my TOC anyway , so I won't be writing to Ciras.

 

[DanNCL]

I don't like the inference here that Tyne & Wear Metro drivers are any less qualified than any other drivers. They drive trains for a living on Network Rail infrastructure and on conventional UK 2, 3 and 4 aspect signalling. This isn't the same as bringing in a tram driver from Beamish.

I think Metro drivers deserve a lot of respect. Their experience may not be the same as someone who's spent 25 years flying up and down the ECML in the cab of a 91 but Metro drivers have plenty of experience. They drive what is by a country mile the UK's least reliable train fleet, regularly fixing train faults that elsewhere would require a fitter, and they have to deal with the major anti social behaviour problem on Metro too, as the only staff on those trains they're often the ones that have to deal with it.
Metro also until recently didn't have any simulators so all training was done the 'old fashioned' way. Metro drivers in all likelihood have more supervised driving experience before going out alone than drivers elsewhere, as the training that would be done on a simulator elsewhere is (or was) done on the trains themselves on Metro, on top of the supervised driving that's required everywhere.

Metro drivers have been leaving for other operators for a long time and they've gone to basically any operator with a crew depot in the North East: TPE, XC, LNER, Northern, GC and various FOCs, apart from one incident in exactly the same location with a GC service we haven't seen other incidents like this at any of those TOCs. Metro drivers moving to Lumo only gained the level of attention it did because it came at a time when Metro drivers were leaving faster than Nexus could train new drivers.

 

[Neptune]

OK I've no more to add here. I'm not interested enough to keep defending my view. My view is my view.

Interested enough to bring it up but not interested enough to carry on once challenged.

Some people thought Brexit a good idea others thought not. We live in a democracy and I expressed an opinion on a forum.

You did express a view, one that you have kind of defended then kind of relented on by subtly changing your wording leaving us all hanging on what you actually meant. If you’re going to make a statement like you did (let me remind you):-

“Would be interesting to know if the driver was one of the ex Tyne and Wear Metro drivers that Lumo took on.

If so, he or She would have no high speed experience, something that certain Tocs like Eurostar always used to insist on when recruiting qualified drivers.

Bearing in mind Lumo spend much of their lives at 125mph maybe this would have been a wise thing to require when recruiting drivers?

Going from Trams to high speed intercity is a bit of a difference and requires very different skills”

Then at least be big enough to consider that it comes across as at best condescending and at worst down right offensive. Have you even considered that a driver from Lumo may read this and take great offence especially as it has come from a fellow driver (so much for solidarity).

I just can’t believe that one person can comment on another doing the same job in such a way as to suggest they need extra training due to the extra mph they’re now driving at.

If you disagree that's fine by me. It’s not particularly relevant at my TOC anyway , so I won't be writing to Ciras.

I do disagree with you and your last sentence says to me and no doubt others that safety is not a priority to you. I sincerely hope I am wrong.

 

[irish_rail]

Interested enough to bring it up but not interested enough to carry on once challenged.

You did express a view, one that you have kind of defended then kind of relented on by subtly changing your wording leaving us all hanging on what you actually meant. If you’re going to make a statement like you did (let me remind you):-

“Would be interesting to know if the driver was one of the ex Tyne and Wear Metro drivers that Lumo took on.

If so, he or She would have no high speed experience, something that certain Tocs like Eurostar always used to insist on when recruiting qualified drivers.

Bearing in mind Lumo spend much of their lives at 125mph maybe this would have been a wise thing to require when recruiting drivers?

Going from Trams to high speed intercity is a bit of a difference and requires very different skills”

Then at least be big enough to consider that it comes across as at best condescending and at worst down right offensive. Have you even considered that a driver from Lumo may read this and take great offence especially as it has come from a fellow driver (so much for solidarity).

I just can’t believe that one person can comment on another doing the same job in such a way as to suggest they need extra training due to the extra mph they’re now driving at.

I do disagree with you and your last sentence says to me and no doubt others that safety is not a priority to you. I sincerely hope I am wrong.

Now who's being condescending.......

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jul 2023 ==

I don't like the inference here that Tyne & Wear Metro drivers are any less qualified than any other drivers. They drive trains for a living on Network Rail infrastructure and on conventional UK 2, 3 and 4 aspect signalling. This isn't the same as bringing in a tram driver from Beamish.

I think Metro drivers deserve a lot of respect. Their experience may not be the same as someone who's spent 25 years flying up and down the ECML in the cab of a 91 but Metro drivers have plenty of experience. They drive what is by a country mile the UK's least reliable train fleet, regularly fixing train faults that elsewhere would require a fitter, and they have to deal with the major anti social behaviour problem on Metro too, as the only staff on those trains they're often the ones that have to deal with it.
Metro also until recently didn't have any simulators so all training was done the 'old fashioned' way. Metro drivers in all likelihood have more supervised driving experience before going out alone than drivers elsewhere, as the training that would be done on a simulator elsewhere is (or was) done on the trains themselves on Metro, on top of the supervised driving that's required everywhere.

Metro drivers have been leaving for other operators for a long time and they've gone to basically any operator with a crew depot in the North East: TPE, XC, LNER, Northern, GC and various FOCs, apart from one incident in exactly the same location with a GC service we haven't seen other incidents like this at any of those TOCs. Metro drivers moving to Lumo only gained the level of attention it did because it came at a time when Metro drivers were leaving faster than Nexus could train new drivers.

All fair points. Admittedly I have little knowledge of Tyne and Wear metro and wasn't aware they drive on the mainline?! I had assumed it was essentially a tram system but if that is incorrect then fair enough.

 

[Horizon22]

OK I've no more to add here. I'm not interested enough to keep defending my view. My view is my view. Some people thought Brexit a good idea others thought not. We live in a democracy and I expressed an opinion on a forum. If you disagree that's fine by me. Its not particularly relevant at my TOC anyway , so I won't be writing to Ciras.

That's fine. But you have to accept that some people will challenge your opinion and you started this line of reasoning. If you don't want to defend some of your points, it doesn't make for a good discussion.

 

[DanNCL]

All fair points. Admittedly I have little knowledge of Tyne and Wear metro and wasn't aware they drive on the mainline?! I had assumed it was essentially a tram system but if that is incorrect then fair enough.

The trains themselves are light rail vehicles and the Airport branch has a number of open level crossings but otherwise it runs like the manually driven LU lines. The entire network has colour light signalling and train protection (albeit Indusi rather than TPWS) and is segregated from street traffic. The Green line runs on Network Rail infrastructure between Pelaw and South Hylton, and shares that infrastructure with other trains between Pelaw and Sunderland, indeed at Sunderland station Metro, Northern, GC and LNER all use the same platforms. The Yellow Line also shares a short section with freight as the Jarrow tanks now run on Metro infrastructure to reach Jarrow Prax. All Metro drivers sign the full Metro network and frequently drive both lines. Despite less of the trackage being owned by Network Rail, Metro actually shares more mileage with other trains than Merseyrail does.
The new Metro fleet currently under test is from the same platform as the 777s on Merseyrail and aren't designed to be capable of modification for street running unlike the current Metro fleet.

 

[Anvil1984]

Not sure if it counts under the “extra training” provided but a few TOCs have changed from accepting Metro drivers as “qualifieds” and make them sit the full course the same as any other driver. That could include Northern, I’m pretty sure we took some as “qualified” but a few have been treat the same as a new starter.

 

[Neptune]

All fair points. Admittedly I have little knowledge of Tyne and Wear metro and wasn't aware they drive on the mainline?! I had assumed it was essentially a tram system but if that is incorrect then fair enough.

Maybe read up on things first before jumping in with both feet in future and causing all this unrest.

I do believe that you posted what you originally did with good, if misguided, intentions bearing in mind it was a serious safety incident (although nowhere does it suggest that this was an ex T&W metro driver). But when challenged on what you’ve said you have not at all covered yourself in glory. Especially so when you then go on to admit several posts later that you know nothing about the T&W Metro including the fact they’ve run on the mainline for 20 years since the Sunderland extension was built.

Times are tough on the railway whether it be staff (feel happy that nobody is coming for your job yet) or passengers (they’ve also had a truly sh*t time of it). Some of what you have said really comes over badly as other people have also pointed out and there was no need for it because you can argue until you’re blue in the face that you didn’t mean it, but you have essentially said that one group of drivers is less well trained to drive trains like yours than others are. Not a nice thing to say to those drivers at all, especially on a public forum (imagine the field day the press would have if they picked up on this thread).

Anyway no more to be said and time to move on as you have expressed a desire to do in a previous post.

 

[baz962]

They took you on miss daisy .

For balance, Eurostar haven't required high-speed experience for a while now.

 

[martin2345uk]

They took you on miss daisy .

Fair

 

[MattRat]

I thought the problem was signalling? That the signal showed green and the driver reacted as they would normally, with no idea of the diversion to a slower line.

Unless I'm mistaken and the driver was in fact in the wrong. I'm all ears.

 

[tomuk]

I thought the problem was signalling? That the signal showed green and the driver reacted as they would normally, with no idea of the diversion to a slower line.

Unless I'm mistaken and the driver was in fact in the wrong. I'm all ears.

You are very much mistaken. The signal did step up to green, but here is the important part, the junction indicator showing the train would diverge to the slow line was also lit. The driver completely ignored the junction indicator. Below is an extract from the forward facing CCTV video from the train concerned showing the green signal and horizontal junction indicator lit above it.