To what extent is an operator entitled to delay your exit from a station?

[philthetube]

But presumably, to have a reasonable chance of deterring fare dodging, you need ticket checks on every service. That means at least 1 member of staff on each train to do the checking, so anything saved on barriers and people to man them would be swallowed up in increased staffing costs for the onboard checks.

Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to see that here, but I don’t think it would be cheaper.

if the penalty is more than 10% of the fare then only one ion ten trains needs checking.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

if the penalty is more than 10% of the fare then only one ion ten trains needs checking.

Surely the penalty would need to be at least ten times the fare avoided (so 1000%) if only one in ten trains gets checked, and the other nine trains aren't?

 

[Mojo]

if the penalty is more than 10% of the fare then only one ion ten trains needs checking.

Depends what the consequences of a criminal record are for you. In many professions it would have to be disclosed to your employer with the risk of losing your job.

 

[modernrail]

There are a few stations in the UK that make me want to breach bye laws just to make a point about the disgraceful, rude, cack handed system that is employed by whoever is pretending to be in charge.

Leeds used to be a favourite, where I really resented queuing for more than the time of my train journey to but a ticket that I could not have bought at the station or on the train.

The current poster boys are Stansted Airport and Manchester Piccadilly. The staff at both need a serious attitude upgrade. I can only imagine it comes from their bosses, and so those bosses need to have a serious word with themselves. I have wondered whether Ryanair have insisted on the set up at Stansted so as not to show up their operation.

 

[philthetube]

Surely the penalty would need to be at least ten times the fare avoided (so 1000%) if only one in ten trains gets checked, and the other nine trains aren't?

Depends what the consequences of a criminal record are for you. In many professions it would have to be disclosed to your employer with the risk of losing your job.

oops, meant to say 10 times the fare

 

[Silenos]

oops, meant to say 10 times the fare

Would that mean a sliding scale of penalty fares depending on your destination (or I guess the train’s starting point and terminus since it would be hard to prove where the miscreant intended to get off and it might not be known where they got on, either)? This would mean that on some local services the penalty fare might be a modest £80 or so whereas on other services it might run into thousands of pounds. I suspect that this might lead to legal challenges and political pressure - doesn’t a penalty need to be fair and proportionate?

 

[Segedunum]

I used Stansted last Friday evening and happened to be at the front of the train, so headed for the lift exit.

Immediately had one member of staff storm over to block everyone's way, and managed to trap a guy who was just in front then realised his friend wasn't behind him yet. Cue him being practically screamed at and asked where he'd come from when he hadn't travelled anywhere yet.

That had already caused a queue to form within a minute - so I dread to think what it'd have been like once a 12-carriage service had fully disembarked.

Thankfully (?!) Ryanair had delayed my return flight to Stansted so catastrophically (nearly 12hrs) that I bought another one and ended up back at Gatwick instead.

 

[Cloud Strife]

On Tuesday though I'm just taking the coach, cos that's just less hassle annoyance and worry.

It's nonsense like this that heavily discourages people from travelling by train.

For what it's worth, I would have zero problems with simply walking by them. If they want to see a ticket, no problem, I can show them a ticket. But I'm not waiting around for them to do their checks. Things like this only work as long as everyone politely queues up, after all.

 

[gingerheid]

It's nonsense like this that heavily discourages people from travelling by train.

For what it's worth, I would have zero problems with simply walking by them. If they want to see a ticket, no problem, I can show them a ticket. But I'm not waiting around for them to do their checks. Things like this only work as long as everyone politely queues up, after all.

You would have a problem walking by them. There's such a massive crowd massed round the exit that you can't get up to it.

The coach was indeed hassle free, though. It takes a few mins longer, but it leaves from a roughly equal number of mins closer to the centre so it's all good.

 

[peteb]

I recorded an incident in Lisbon earlier this year (see international travel) where, although holding perfectly valid interrail passes there was no legitimate way of exiting the station via the electronic barriers. No staff on hand. We had to go back one stop to an open unstaffed station and continue from there by tram.....lots of other travellers decided to leap the barriers, noone stopped them. I wonder if in the UK you hold a valid ticket whether leaping a barrier could be deemed a crime?

 

[yorkie]

I was shocked yesterday to see how poor the provision is at Bournemouth, however when it became obvious to staff that a large crowd had gathered, they opened the gates.

Why can't Greater Anglia take note?

Does anyone have any contacts at a health & safety body who can investigate the clear malpractice going on by Greater Anglia?

I am fed up of rouge companies like GA treating passengers so badly; they can be quick to put the boot in on customers who make mistakes , but they get away with all sorts of malpractice.

 

[kevjs]

At Redhill it almost seems pointless to have barriers at the main entrance when there is an open entrance to platform 3.

Nottingham is the same - gate line on the main concourse, but not if you've come in via Station Street, from the Tram, or Platform 7, and indeed there is a public footpath running down the access bridge and along part of Platform 7.

 

[Cloud Strife]

I wonder if in the UK you hold a valid ticket whether leaping a barrier could be deemed a crime?

Very unlikely, because you would be quite within your right to simply walk away.

Does anyone have any contacts at a health & safety body who can investigate the clear malpractice going on by Greater Anglia?

Who actually owns the station? Is it Stansted Airport?

 

[island]

I wonder if in the UK you hold a valid ticket whether leaping a barrier could be deemed a crime?

Yes, it’s an offence to pass through a ticket barrier otherwise than in the proper manner.

 

[Wolfie]

Yes, it’s an offence to pass through a ticket parties otherwise than in the proper manner.

Interesting. I wonder how long before someone challenges the railway's arrogant belief that they can detain passengers as long as they care to without comeback, based on Victorian era laws, for non-compliance with the Human Rights Act.

 

[gingerheid]

This was the question that started off this thread. I think the general concensus was that the point at which you can demand to leave is somewhere between 5 and 15 mins. However in order to achieve this at Stansted you'd also have to persuade the people in front of you to join the rebellion, or be prepared to find out whether the people at the entrace would be prepared to physically block your path (which it would be easy for them to do as they'd see you coming for quite a long time).

That's why I took the coach the last time...

 

[peteb]

Yes, it’s an offence to pass through a ticket parties otherwise than in the proper manner.

Noted though with my bad knee I won't be leaping over anything for quite a while!

 

[island]

Interesting. I wonder how long before someone challenges the railway's arrogant belief that they can detain passengers as long as they care to without comeback, based on Victorian era laws, for non-compliance with the Human Rights Act.

That will not happen.

The Human Rights Act only applies to the government and state bodies, so it's not applicable here.

The Railway Byelaws were passed less than 20 years ago.

 

[Wolfie]

That will not happen.

The Human Rights Act only applies to the government and state bodies, so it's not applicable here.

The Railway Byelaws were passed less than 20 years ago.

The Equality Commission would appear to differ....

Who does the Human Rights Act apply to? | Equality and Human Rights Commission

The Act applies to all public bodies and private organisations that are carrying out public functions.

www.equalityhumanrights.com

"Private organisations or charities that carry out public functions could include, for example:

• privatised utilities like water companies, British Gas and Network Rail
• a security company running a private prison
• housing associations that act as social landlords
• private care homes providing care on behalf of a local authority, and
• private hospitals providing care on behalf of the NHS.

Private organisations or charities only have to follow the Human Rights Act when they carry out their public functions."

 

[island]

TOCs are not Network Rail.

There are several legal routes that could potentially be followed regarding this issue, but the Human Rights Act is not one of them.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

I would be very surprised if "Private organisations or charities that carry out public functions" didn't include a TOC running a service that was inherited from the public sector and which it is mandated to provide by DfT.

An Open Access operator might have more of a case for exclusion.

 

[75A]

To be fair, given that Stansted Airport station is a grim, cold, echoey concrete box with virtually no natural light, no facilities, and no discernible architectural merit, it’s hardly surprising that GA staff forced to spend extended periods in such an environment might become a bit surly. I find it depressing enough to pass through that (in combination with the poor rail connections, admittedly) I often prefer to go from Kings Lynn all the way down to Gatwick for my work trips to Copenhagen, rather than use the much nearer Stansted.

That said, the issues with their ticket checking are ridiculous - they insisted on checking my e-ticket when entering the station from the airport as well, and it.was extraordinarily slow. Especially pointless as XC always check tickets on the train, so those of us heading towards Cambridge, Ely or Norwich get checked twice

You say no facilities, how about if someone like me needs the lavatory in a hurry?

 

[matt_world2004]

TOCs are not Network Rail.

There are several legal routes that could potentially be followed regarding this issue, but the Human Rights Act is not one of them.

So if London Underground or an organisation acting on behalf of tfl delayed people leaving a station for upto an hour.
They would breach the human rights act..But abellio Greater Anglia doing the same wouldn't?

 

[Wolfie]

I would be very surprised if "Private organisations or charities that carry out public functions" didn't include a TOC running a service that was inherited from the public sector and which it is mandated to provide by DfT.

An Open Access operator might have more of a case for exclusion.

Absolutely.

 

[Krokodil]

So if London Underground or an organisation acting on behalf of tfl delayed people leaving a station for upto an hour.
They would breach the human rights act..But abellio Greater Anglia doing the same wouldn't?

Was anyone held on the platform for an hour?

 

[island]

So if London Underground or an organisation acting on behalf of tfl delayed people leaving a station for upto an hour.
They would breach the human rights act..But abellio Greater Anglia doing the same wouldn't?

Neither of those things has happened, but I’m happy to discuss things that have happened.

 

[Bartsimho]

Neither of those things has happened, but I’m happy to discuss things that have happened.

When discussing potential issues you have to discuss things that have not happened. It's quite clear this example is asking if there is a difference between the state running trains and a private company running them on behalf of the state based on the exact wording above.

 

[Krokodil]

When discussing potential issues you have to discuss things that have not happened.

There's a bit of a difference between discussing things that plausibly might happen, and going to a wild and unrealistic extreme.