Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[TEW]

I'm not sure, our reps were on about there were still things to agree regarding this as well. We won't be driving them so didn't think much more of it to further question exactly what needed to be agreed. That aside, the driver training task ahead is going to be messy now the mainline drivers have joined the industrial dispute.

Details to be agreed, sure. But the principle of DCO and the drivers operating the doors and monitoring the PTI has been agreed.

 

[Juniper Driver]

Back in April 2005 there was a through service from Waterloo to Brighton which operated as a stopping service to Basingstoke, but it continued to Brighton. It left Clapham Junction at 07:19 and arrived at Brighton at 10:14.

Yeah, I remember that…Didn't I work it to Basingstoke?

 

[Deepgreen]

Just seen a GBRf 47 hauling a heavily graffiti'd 701 near Wimbledon- good luck cleaning that mess up.

I saw photos and wondered why barrier vehicles were not needed - as they weren't I imagine the unit must have been braked, etc., so why couldn't it work on its own from Eastleigh to Wimbledon depot? Just curious (or is the 701s' operating regime now to be loco-hauled in service!? ).

 

[444045]

I saw photos and wondered why barrier vehicles were not needed - as they weren't I imagine the unit must have been braked, etc., so why couldn't it work on its own from Eastleigh to Wimbledon depot? Just curious (or is the 701s' operating regime now to be loco-hauled in service!? ).

I believe you're referring to 47749 hauling U.701049 but it wasnt from Eastleigh, it orginated from Marchwood MOD which was
supposed to be a secure compound although at least 7 of the 10 coaches had been graffitied.

 

[Pdf]

it orginated from Marchwood MOD which was
supposed to be a secure compound although at least 7 of the 10 coaches had been graffitied.

Does MOD stand for ministry of defence? If so that's one brave (stupid) graffiti artist.

 

[444045]

Does MOD stand for ministry of defence? If so that's one brave (stupid) graffiti artist.

Yes you are correct.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Does MOD stand for ministry of defence? If so that's one brave (stupid) graffiti artist.

Yes. Defending equipment from vandalism in a secure environment - haha

 

[dgl]

Bombardier thought they had production capacity or they would've said no. The DfT also didn't specify manufacturers during the franchising period, they did specify capacity requirements (which the 707s didn't meet for standees) but there was nothing stopping bidders using another manufacturer.

As for the 345s they were ordered by TfL not the DfT.

At least Siemens had the sense to admit they hadn't got the production capacity for a potential order for Crossrail so pulled out of the bidding process, looks like Bombardier took on work at any cost, which whilst it looks good to management/investors, looks bad when it turns out you can't actually get the product out and the slapped together rush job you end up doing because you want to get the product out does not do your reputation any good and in the end you end up losing out on future orders as companies no longer trust you or your product.

 

[Snow1964]

If Alstom are concentrating on other classes why are SWR accepting the 701's if they don't work as specified?

They might be lower threshold for acceptance.

Bit like if you buy a new car, but something isn't right and needs to be fixed, the handover doesn't get erased from history, still becomes your car even if not then used.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jul 2023 ==

Or to rephrase the question slightly - who thought it was a good idea to order about 2800 EMU vehicles from Bombardier who have one construction site at Etches Park. Even if the every unit class worked, straight out of the box, it would still have been highly debatable whether the class 345s would interact with three different signalling systems in an untried manner.

A very tall order which DfT who control the TOCs should really have seen through.

It is costing Bombardier (now Alstom) huge amounts, per Rock Rail accounts seems compensation was £67.6m in 2022, £61.8m in 2021, £49.6m in 2020 and probably £4m in 2019

Add on some for first 6 months of 2023 and will have cost Derby over £200m which has probably wiped out any profit in the contract. Actually probably making huge loss (was originally hailed as £1bn contract) so probably would have been better financially if they hadn't built the 701s.

 

[The_Train]

I believe you're referring to 47749 hauling U.701049 but it wasnt from Eastleigh, it orginated from Marchwood MOD which was
supposed to be a secure compound although at least 7 of the 10 coaches had been graffitied.

So has 701049 left Marchwood? Where did it go to please?

 

[Towers]

Yes. Defending equipment from vandalism in a secure environment - haha

I suspect the reality of a current day MOD ‘secure storage’ location is probably a fence and a couple of G4S types on the gate!

 

[444045]

So has 701049 left Marchwood? Where did it go to please?

It went to Wimbledon Park Depot.

 

[Mike Machin]

I’m a bit late on this subject, I have been casually following on and off over the last few years, but why did SWR select the Class 701 originally?

SWT were already well on the way to successfully introducing the Class 701 fleet, so why wasn’t the decision taken to introduce a ten-car version as a continuation of the production run.

With the South Western network already having such a large number of Desiros, even allowing for the numerous differences between the Desiro UK and Desiro City models there must be a certain amount of commonality between them which have brought financial operating efficiencies?

I’m not trying to be controversial, but would just briefly like to know how we got to where we are now with millions of pounds worth of assets sitting around doing nothing.

Let’s hope all of this is resolved quickly and passengers can enjoy their much-deserved upgrade.

 

[pompeyfan]

I’m a bit late on this subject, I have been casually following on and off over the last few years, but why did SWR select the Class 701 originally?

SWT were already well on the way to successfully introducing the Class 701 fleet, so why wasn’t the decision taken to introduce a ten-car version as a continuation of the production run.

With the South Western network already having such a large number of Desiros, even allowing for the numerous differences between the Desiro UK and Desiro City models there must be a certain amount of commonality between them which have brought financial operating efficiencies?

I’m not trying to be controversial, but would just briefly like to know how we got to where we are now with millions of pounds worth of assets sitting around doing nothing.

Let’s hope all of this is resolved quickly and passengers can enjoy their much-deserved upgrade.

The Desiro city never met the original South Western Franchise specification for the 2017 franchise. Based on theoretical numbers 701s can carry more passengers in crush loading situations compared to 707s, as 707s couldn’t have grab rails or handles installed without damaging cables in the ceiling panels.

 

[fgwrich]

The Desiro city never met the original South Western Franchise specification for the 2017 franchise. Based on theoretical numbers 701s can carry more passengers in crush loading situations compared to 707s, as 707s couldn’t have grab rails or handles installed without damaging cables in the ceiling panels.

The irony of the 707s not meeting the DfTs requirements being that the Desiro City’s biggest customer so far has been the DfT with the 700 and 717. It’s a shame we couldn’t have more of those as I rather bet they’d all be in service by now, and SWR would have had a consistent EMU fleet from one manufacturer then.

 

[The_Train]

It went to Wimbledon Park Depot.

Thank you

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The irony of the 707s not meeting the DfTs requirements being that the Desiro City’s biggest customer so far has been the DfT with the 700 and 717. It’s a shame we couldn’t have more of those as I rather bet they’d all be in service by now, and SWR would have had a consistent EMU fleet from one manufacturer then.

Minus the Alstom 458s* of course. With these in the fleet, having the 701s creates no more additional manufacturers within SWR than having 707s.
(*And 484s if you count them.)

 

[pompeyfan]

The irony of the 707s not meeting the DfTs requirements being that the Desiro City’s biggest customer so far has been the DfT with the 700 and 717. It’s a shame we couldn’t have more of those as I rather bet they’d all be in service by now, and SWR would have had a consistent EMU fleet from one manufacturer then.

I think you’d probably be hard pressed to find anyone that disagrees with the prospect of a fleet of 10 car 707s (with toilets!). I know some guards aren’t that keen on them but only because the cab door can be slow and fiddly. I would also assume that they can work with ABDO considering they work full ATO. Oh well, I’m off on a tangent… again.

 

[tomuk]

They might be lower threshold for acceptance.

Bit like if you buy a new car, but something isn't right and needs to be fixed, the handover doesn't get erased from history, still becomes your car even if not then used.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jul 2023 ==



It is costing Bombardier (now Alstom) huge amounts, per Rock Rail accounts seems compensation was £67.6m in 2022, £61.8m in 2021, £49.6m in 2020 and probably £4m in 2019

Add on some for first 6 months of 2023 and will have cost Derby over £200m which has probably wiped out any profit in the contract. Actually probably making huge loss (was originally hailed as £1bn contract) so probably would have been better financially if they hadn't built the 701s.

Alstom have bought Bombardier's rail operations at a relatively bargain price these losses will have been factored in during the purchase.

 

[Invincible]

The Desiro city never met the original South Western Franchise specification for the 2017 franchise. Based on theoretical numbers 701s can carry more passengers in crush loading situations compared to 707s, as 707s couldn’t have grab rails or handles installed without damaging cables in the ceiling panels.

But according to the evening Standard was much more due to lower leasing costs, (coming out of a competitive bid with various companies), and the politics of the franchise and leasing system in the UK.

Business focus: Why your box-fresh train is being replaced

Gleaming new trains will be mothballed within two years in favour of even newer, cheaper rolling stock

www.standard.co.uk

But we know now in order to meet the lower cost, quality control was lowered and software outsourced.

Another consequence also meant the trains were to ensure the Derby production line in UK would survive.

 

[Mike Machin]

Thanks everyone for your clarification on my question about SWR's choice of 701 Aventras rather than more Desiro City type trains, this all makes sense now. Let's hope all of the problems with the 701s can be resolved speedily now and we can look forward to actually getting these trains into revenue-earning service!

 

[Invincible]

Let's hope all of the problems with the 701s can be resolved speedily now and we can look forward to actually getting these trains into revenue-earning service!

No 5Q50/51 test run today, but scheduled for tomorrow. The test and training runs from Waterloo to Windsor and return will be the ones to watch for.

 

[kw12]

I suspect the reality of a current day MOD ‘secure storage’ location is probably a fence and a couple of G4S types on the gate!

The MOD no longer operates Marchwood Port, as in 2016 it granted a 35 year lease of the site to a private company, Solent Gateway Ltd (which is now wholly owned by Associated British Ports).

 

[Goldfish62]

Thanks everyone for your clarification on my question about SWR's choice of 701 Aventras rather than more Desiro City type trains, this all makes sense now. Let's hope all of the problems with the 701s can be resolved speedily now and we can look forward to actually getting these trains into revenue-earning service!

Much needed. A friend of a friend was saying recently that they sometimes can't board the train in the morning peak at Worcester Park. Pre-Covid Worcester Park had 40 carriages per hour, now it has 16, so it's not surprising. Even an increase to 20 through reversion to 10 car trains will make a difference.

 

[Robert Carroll]

Much needed. A friend of a friend was saying recently that they sometimes can't board the train in the morning peak at Worcester Park. Pre-Covid Worcester Park had 40 carriages per hour, now it has 16, so it's not surprising. Even an increase to 20 through reversion to 10 car trains will make a difference.

Worcester Park suffered particularly badly with the post-COVID cuts. It's my local station and we do at least now have the 'luxury' of the 0701 Dorking-Waterloo (0728 from Worcester Park) being 2x707. The 701s can't come soon enough but I think the Epsom line is well down the list for 701 introduction, when it eventually comes.

 

[Bigfoot]

No 5Q50/51 test run today, but scheduled for tomorrow. The test and training runs from Waterloo to Windsor and return will be the ones to watch for.

There was a 701 out doing something though. I passed it somewhere between Basingstoke and Woking.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

There was a 701 out doing something though. I passed it somewhere between Basingstoke and Woking.

about sums them up doing something except what they are designed for

 

[pompeyfan]

There was a 701 out doing something though. I passed it somewhere between Basingstoke and Woking.

That’s an SWR move, not a GBRF move according to RTT, hopefully that’s positive news.

Realtime Trains | 5Q75 0956 Clapham Yard Sidings to Basingstoke | 10/07/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q75 0956 departure from Clapham Yard Sidings to Basingstoke on 10/07/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Invincible]

Saw 5Q64 this morning 701015 pulled by a diesel 47727 heading towards Willseden for modifications? RTT does not say the operator presumably GBRF if diesel hauled?

 

[CR165022]

Saw 5Q64 this morning 701015 pulled by a diesel 47727 heading towards Willseden for modifications? RTT does not say the operator presumably GBRF if diesel hauled?

I don't know if it was the same unit being dragged but something has gone from Willesden to Bicester Mod on 5Q68, departing an hour or so after 5Q64 arrived