UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[ainsworth74]

Does it give you nearly 500 motorway miles on a cold day in January still ?

my ICE does, which is why I have one.

Out of curiosity how often do you have to do 500 miles on the motorway in January?

 

[Chuffing Heck]

I think Ford will bring back the Fiesta when it realises the mistake (from a US-centric management viewpoint) although that doesn't mean it won't be a 4x4 SUV vehicle with a Fiesta badge thrown on it.

Next year will see lots of small, lighter, EVs with smaller batteries and ideal for cost conscious buyers doing lower mileages (such as in cities) or as a second car. Meanwhile, Ford will be thinking we all want to

This may have been discussed before but until I read elsewhere by chance I did not know that while for charging at home the VAT rate is 5%, not least because EV charging can not be isolated from all other use, at public chargers it is 20%. This puts all who can not charge at home from their existing supply at a disadvantage. The links below are over 9 months old and over 2 years old but I can not find reference to any change.






The elephant in the room that has been discussed before is that combined VAT and duty on a £1.40 litre of petrol or diesel is around 76p so even at 50mpg about 7p / mile. Using a public charger at say 50p/unit plus 20% VAT making 60p then the EV travelling 3 miles per unit the VAT is only 3.3p / mile. I don't know and can not quickly find a current dual tariff overnight rate but if it was 20p/unit plus 5% VAT again with EV travelling 3 miles per unit the VAT is just 0.33p / mile. However charged the government can not afford to loose the current income from petrol and diesel. At 21p/unit then 3 miles/unit the electricity is 7/p mile then even 5p/mile tax making 12p/mile the cost is compatible to petrol and diesel. At 20p/mile for electricity plus 5p/mile tax the total cost becomes twice that of petrol and diesel.

But you are not taking into account depreciation that doesn’t make the figures work in an electric vehicles favour.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jul 2023 ==

But you are not taking into account the depreciation of electric vehicles, just like no one tells you about all the precious metals involved in an electric vehicle, and the destruction of third world countries in the process.

 

[birchesgreen]

Does it give you nearly 500 motorway miles on a cold day in January still ?

my ICE does, which is why I have one.

Can an EV do it at Stoke on a cold wet November night? Oh wait thats Messi isn't it?

 

[MattA7]

With regards to Ford stopping the fiesta in favor of SUVs and the fact all Nissan cars on the market are SUVs (except the leaf EV) what are the statistics regarding new car sales, are most SUVs do the majority of British drivers really have a “bigger is better” attitude like Americans. Strangely if that is true I wonder why pick up trucks are not popular here.

One reason may be if the government are favoring FMVSS safety standards instead of euro standards i know it was being considered and there was controversy over it due to the lack of pedestrian safety in such regulations.

 

[tomuk]

With regards to Ford stopping the fiesta in favor of SUVs and the fact all Nissan cars on the market are SUVs (except the leaf EV) what are the statistics regarding new car sales, are most SUVs do the majority of British drivers really have a “bigger is better” attitude like Americans. Strangely if that is true I wonder why pick up trucks are not popular here.

Not sure where you live but there is a growing following of what the Americans would class as compact pickups, Ford Ranger, Nissan Navara, Mitsubishi L200 etc. Used a lot by tradesman and others for the tax breaks.

One reason may be if the government are favoring FMVSS safety standards instead of euro standards i know it was being considered and there was controversy over it due to the lack of pedestrian safety in such regulations.

UK is still very much to Euro standards. I'm not sure why we would want to go American the federal standards are at best just deliberately different to Japanese and Euro standards to protect American manufacturers from imports.

 

[MotCO]

what are the statistics regarding new car sales, are most SUVs do the majority of British drivers really have a “bigger is better” attitude like Americans.

It may sound strange, but I will go for an SUV for my next car because saloon cars are too difficult for me to get into. I am over 6ft tall, and have noticed that newer cars have a lower internal top door frame, presumably for rollover cage purposes, so I can't comfortably get in a car without hitting my head on the door frame. I can just about manage a small SUV.

 

[MattA7]

Not sure where you live but there is a growing following of what the Americans would class as compact pickups, Ford Ranger, Nissan Navara, Mitsubishi L200 etc. Used a lot by tradesman and others for the tax breaks.

UK is still very much to Euro standards. I'm not sure why we would want to go American the federal standards are at best just deliberately different to Japanese and Euro standards to protect American manufacturers from imports.

I believe the reason they were considering US standards was to encourage trade deals with the US after brexit and presumably because their standards are stricter than ours in terms of safety i have a feeling it was debated on this forum briefly a while back. However I could be wrong.

It may sound strange, but I will go for an SUV for my next car because saloon cars are too difficult for me to get into. I am over 6ft tall, and have noticed that newer cars have a lower internal top door frame, presumably for rollover cage purposes, so I can't comfortably get in a car without hitting my head on the door frame. I can just about manage a small SUV.

I was considering buying a SUV due to back problems however most people that is probably not their priority. Saloon cars are becoming scarce in the UK market so I could see why a SUV may be a attractive choice for a taller person.

 

[tomuk]

I believe the reason they were considering US standards was to encourage trade deals with the US after brexit and presumably because their standards are stricter than ours in terms of safety i have a feeling it was debated on this forum briefly a while back. However I could be wrong.

Ah Brexit scare stories. The UK car manufacturing sector is very much tied to European\Japanese origins there is no reason at all to engage with the even more moribund US manufacturers.

 

[trebor79]

what happens after 8 years ?

The bonnet pings up with smoke billowing, then the wheels and doors fall off like a circus clown car.
I'm looking forward to it.

 

[birchesgreen]

With regards to Ford stopping the fiesta in favor of SUVs and the fact all Nissan cars on the market are SUVs (except the leaf EV) what are the statistics regarding new car sales, are most SUVs do the majority of British drivers really have a “bigger is better” attitude like Americans. Strangely if that is true I wonder why pick up trucks are not popular here.

SUVs dominate the top 10 sales but then again when the number of non-SUVs available on the market is restricted its a chicken and egg situation. Until Ford decided to kill it the Fiesta was a nailed on fixture as the number 1 seller for years on end.

 

[Snow1964]

Does it give you nearly 500 motorway miles on a cold day in January still ?

my ICE does, which is why I have one.

But no one should be driving for over 7 hours without a break, which rather makes it irrelevant as motorways are now gaining fast charge at intervals

 

[Bald Rick]

Does it give you nearly 500 motorway miles on a cold day in January still ?

Yep, easily, with a stop.

 

[Energy]

Yep, easily, with a stop.

I don't think many drivers could do 500 miles without a stop.

 

[Deepgreen]

At present the greatest constraint on EV adoption is the ability of the car industry to supply demand. I’m hearing several anecdotal tales of deliveries stretching well into 2023.

Yes - I ordered a JLR Discovery Sport PHEV in early 2021 and it was delivered in mid 2022. We were kept informed about supply progress and weren't unduly bothered, but the really annoying thing was that someone drove into me and wrote off our old car two months before we got the new one! I think a number of issues need to be addressed about the production sustainability of the batteries - the raw materials are valuable and their extraction needs to be made more equitable for the miners, etc., let alone the issue of the absolute amounts of them that can be extracted anyway. Technology develops constantly and the progress with battery range has been startling. The electricity to charge the vehicles also needs to be as green as possible and that still has a way to go.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes - I ordered a JLR Discovery Sport PHEV in early 2021 and it was delivered in mid 2022. We were kept informed about supply progress and weren't unduly bothered, but the really annoying thing was that someone drove into me and wrote off our old car two months before we got the new one! I think a number of issues need to be addressed about the production sustainability of the batteries - the raw materials are valuable and their extraction needs to be made more equitable for the miners, etc., let alone the issue of the absolute amounts of them that can be extracted anyway. Technology develops constantly and the progress with battery range has been startling. The electricity to charge the vehicles also needs to be as green as possible and that still has a way to go.

I gather that the supply chain issues have eased somewhat - June saw new car registrations growing sharply month on month and year on year. Battery EVs are now 18% of the market, with plug in hybrids another 7%.

Grid decarbonisation - yes there is still lots of work to do there (and it is happening), but we have come a long, long way already. For example the last week has seen an average of 92g/kWH, compared to the same week a decade ago which was 422g/kWH.

 

[NoRoute]

I think a number of issues need to be addressed about the production sustainability of the batteries - the raw materials are valuable and their extraction needs to be made more equitable for the miners, etc., let alone the issue of the absolute amounts of them that can be extracted anyway. Technology develops constantly and the progress with battery range has been startling. The electricity to charge the vehicles also needs to be as green as possible and that still has a way to go.

The issue is broader than just the battery and the electricity, it's also about the size and type of vehicles people buy and whether these are sustainable. The trend is for manufacturers to produce and people to buy bigger and heavier vehicles, which then require more energy per mile and more resources to manufacture.

The amount of battery capacity required is determined by the size and mass of the vehicle it is propelling along, smaller aerodynamic EVs and PHEVs get a lot more miles from a given battery capacity and amount of energy, whereas physically large and heavy vehicles not only use a lot more energy for every mile they travel they also need a lot more battery capacity (with all the resources and production emissions) to provide the same range.

 

[Deepgreen]

I gather that the supply chain issues have eased somewhat - June saw new car registrations growing sharply month on month and year on year. Battery EVs are now 18% of the market, with plug in hybrids another 7%.

Grid decarbonisation - yes there is still lots of work to do there (and it is happening), but we have come a long, long way already. For example the last week has seen an average of 92g/kWH, compared to the same week a decade ago which was 422g/kWH.

Agreed on both counts there.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jul 2023 ==

The issue is broader than just the battery and the electricity, it's also about the size and type of vehicles people buy and whether these are sustainable. The trend is for manufacturers to produce and people to buy bigger and heavier vehicles, which then require more energy per mile and more resources to manufacture.

The amount of battery capacity required is determined by the size and mass of the vehicle it is propelling along, smaller aerodynamic EVs and PHEVs get a lot more miles from a given battery capacity and amount of energy, whereas physically large and heavy vehicles not only use a lot more energy for every mile they travel they also need a lot more battery capacity (with all the resources and production emissions) to provide the same range.

Absolutely so, and the heavy vehicles cause more road damage, etc.

 

[Snow1964]

Pure electric cars (June) were 17.9% of new sales (16.1% Jan-Jun)
Plug in electric hybrid (June) were 7.2% of sales (6.5% for Jan-Jun)

So roughly quarter of new cars in UK are electric or PHEV and rate seems to be increasing.

UK New Car Registration Data - Latest Figures & Statistics | SMMT

Discover the latest UK car registration data: new car registration statistics, the number of cars in the UK, and more.

www.smmt.co.uk

I suspect there is still lack of supply limiting the market, checked with a local dealer what electric cars they had, and answer was none in stock, but taking orders which wont be delivered for few months, but could supply petrol or diesel car quickly.

 

[Bald Rick]

Pure electric cars (June) were 17.9% of new sales (16.1% Jan-Jun)
Plug in electric hybrid (June) were 7.2% of sales (6.5% for Jan-Jun)

So roughly quarter of new cars in UK are electric or PHEV and rate seems to be increasing.

UK New Car Registration Data - Latest Figures & Statistics | SMMT

Discover the latest UK car registration data: new car registration statistics, the number of cars in the UK, and more.

www.smmt.co.uk

I suspect there is still lack of supply limiting the market, checked with a local dealer what electric cars they had, and answer was none in stock, but taking orders which wont be delivered for few months, but could supply petrol or diesel car quickly.

indeed. And by the end of the year, each manufacturer will need (by law) to have 22% of their registrations to be Battery EVs, so there could be some interesting deals in January.

 

[MotCO]

indeed. And by the end of the year, each manufacturer will need (by law) to have 22% of their registrations to be Battery EVs, so there could be some interesting deals in January.

Or more likely, price hikes on ICEs.

 

[BananaRepublic]

Absolutely so, and the heavy vehicles cause more road damage, etc.

That mainly applies to larger commercial vehicles, bigger than a large Transit sized van, or large pickup truck.
There was a road research report that noted that heavier EV cars had a negligible impact on increased road wear.
it's almost entirely an issue with larger commercials.

 

[Bald Rick]

Or more likely, price hikes on ICEs.

“Interesting deals” covers that!

 

[jon0844]

I don't think many drivers could do 500 miles without a stop.

I am sure I could, but I would never ever try. Even if sharing driving, even the most comfortable luxobarge would still have me wanting to stretch my legs at some point.

Plus the only people who bring up the need to drive 500+ miles on a cold snowy morning are those who have a thing for hating EVs. These are ridiculous 'edge cases' that the oil lobby has in its repertoire of EV bashing examples.

As I can see from more and more green plates, it isn't working very well at putting people off.

 

[Bald Rick]

I am sure I could, but I would never ever try. Even if sharing driving, even the most comfortable luxobarge would still have me wanting to stretch my legs at some point.

Plus the only people who bring up the need to drive 500+ miles on a cold snowy morning are those who have a thing for hating EVs. These are ridiculous 'edge cases' that the oil lobby has in its repertoire of EV bashing examples.

As I can see from more and more green plates, it isn't working very well at putting people off.

I have done 400 miles without stopping once, and 300 miles several times. I can’t say I’m particularly proud about it, and in every case it was done due because I simply had to be somewhere at a certain time and had been heavily delayed earlier in the journey. I would much rather have had a break.

Very much the exception. A 200-250 mile stage, with a half hour break (and charge) is what I would consider to be a ‘working maximum’.

 

[Energy]

I am sure I could, but I would never ever try.

At 70mph that would be a little over 7 hours of continuous driving, you sure?

Plus the only people who bring up the need to drive 500+ miles on a cold snowy morning are those who have a thing for hating EVs. These are ridiculous 'edge cases' that the oil lobby has in its repertoire of EV bashing examples.

I don't think many people realise how long a mile is, the 100 mile range EVs would cover most peoples needs most of the time from home charging, with the exception of the once a year long drive.

Many people also have a my car and my partners car mentality and wouldn't plan to drive the other persons car once in a blue moon yet end up doing so occasionally anyway.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jul 2023 ==

Very much the exception. A 200-250 mile stage, with a half hour break (and charge) is what I would consider to be a ‘working maximum’.

I'd agree with that. Anyone who isn't stopping at least that often is being dangerous, or breaking the law if they are a HGV driver.

 

[PeterC]

I have done 400 miles without stopping once, and 300 miles several times. I can’t say I’m particularly proud about it, and in every case it was done due because I simply had to be somewhere at a certain time and had been heavily delayed earlier in the journey. I would much rather have had a break.

Very much the exception. A 200-250 mile stage, with a half hour break (and charge) is what I would consider to be a ‘working maximum’.

Fortunately most MSAs that I have used recently are in the process of installing more chargers. So far this year I have seen regular queues for the Tesla chargers at South Mimms and occasional queues for ordinary chargers at London Gateway and Cambridge.

 

[BananaRepublic]

To save anybody some time looking it up, here are some examples of actual road distances in the UK, for some very long road journeys.
Who is claiming they can do these trips, non-stop with no rest or toilet break?

London - Penzance 306 miles
London - Dundee 472 miles
Brighton - Edinburgh 464 miles
Newcastle - Penzance 478 miles
Southampton - Edinburgh 430 miles

 

[Snow1964]

To save anybody some time looking it up, here are some examples of actual road distances in the UK, for some very long road journeys.
Who is claiming they can do these trips, non-stop with no rest or toilet break?

London - Penzance 306 miles
London - Dundee 472 miles
Brighton - Edinburgh 464 miles
Newcastle - Penzance 478 miles
Southampton - Edinburgh 430 miles

None are over 500 miles,
None can be done completely by motorway

And I agree whoever thinks they can drive for over 7 hours without stopping, so they can do 500+ miles is living in fantasy land, or danger to other motorists as unlikely to be very alert.

 

[jon0844]

Nobody is doing it. You even see people using the same anti EV argument for 800 mile trips (with diesel vehicles) which is even more ludicrous.

I had a diesel that could do 600 odd miles but I still stopped on long trips. The huge range just meant I didn't refuel as often.

With an EV you'd just top up every day or two (maybe even once a week) so you'd always have plenty of range on tap - and most new EVs coming charge fast and don't need a full charge as you stop for a rest break.

I accept there are some genuine edge cases where EVs don't suit, but they're decreasing every day.

It's especially funny that an oil rich country like Norway has never had the same attitude to oil consumption that the UK, and definitely the US, does when it comes to wanting to keep gas guzzlers forever. Norway is way ahead on EV ownership.

 

[Enthusiast]

None are over 500 miles,
None can be done completely by motorway

To be pedantic, you could do Southampton to Edinburgh completely by motorway, though it would involve the "pretty route" and almost certainly exceed 500 miles:

M27, M3, M25, M1, M6, A74(M), M74, M73, M8.