Future of Ticket Office Consultations launched

[Starmill]

It's not about defending points, I was genuinely asking.

I can see a time when technology can virtually replace everyone's job role. Is this an ideal goal to be aiming for though, that was my question. It was no snipe at the dole, it was how do you find productive (and a rewarding career) if tech can eventually replace all. I admit it does wander of topic. But as someone else stated earlier, "passengers are becoming self loading freight", shopworkers are being cut for self service. Where will it end?

I don't really think this wider question has anything to do with the current consultations.

 

[pt_mad]

Any proposal that goes to consultation that might result in changes to jobs means that to comply with employment law, all potentially affected staff will have been issued with notices that their job may change or cease to exist. It's a some way yet from actual changes being imposed or any staff being displaced but obviously will be of concern to those in potential scope.

CAMPAIGNING AGAINST TICKET OFFICE CLOSURES

Important briefing on RMT's campaign to oppose the Government and train companies' plans for ticket office closures with General Secretary Mick Lynch and Ass...

www.youtube.com

He (Mick Lynch) says there in that video in his first few sentences, new contracts.

Could we be talking a fire and rehire type attempt here which the government condemned with regard to P and O?

 

[Starmill]

CAMPAIGNING AGAINST TICKET OFFICE CLOSURES

Important briefing on RMT's campaign to oppose the Government and train companies' plans for ticket office closures with General Secretary Mick Lynch and Ass...

www.youtube.com

He says there in that video in his first few sentences, new contracts.

Could we be talking a fire and rehire type attempt here which the government condemned with regard to P and O?

Probably not, certainly not initially. Also the government condemned P&O Ferries was because they were using a loophole to pay lower than minimum wage and also because P&O chose to terminate employments unlawfully. Those things wouldn't be happening here.

 

[pt_mad]

Probably not, certainly not initially. Also the government condemned P&O Ferries was because they were using a loophole to pay lower than minimum wage and also because P&O chose to terminate employments unlawfully. Those things wouldn't be happening here.

Certainly sounds concerning new pay rates and new contracts which Mick Lynch clearly says in that video. And I think it would take an optimistic person to say the contracts and pay rates are likely to be better than today.

I wouldn't have thought workers could just be presented with a new contract otherwise if they refuse it surely would effectively be redundancy and attract any agreed payments for that?

How even would voluntary severance work in that scenario? Sign here or agree to volunteer for redundancy because we are ending your job? Surely that's compulsory something which the government has argued all along wouldn't happen?

 

[thedbdiboy]

CAMPAIGNING AGAINST TICKET OFFICE CLOSURES

Important briefing on RMT's campaign to oppose the Government and train companies' plans for ticket office closures with General Secretary Mick Lynch and Ass...

www.youtube.com

He (Mick Lynch) says there in that video in his first few sentences, new contracts.

Could we be talking a fire and rehire type attempt here which the government condemned with regard to P and O?

The employers are the TOCs under contract to DfT so such a move would both be politically toxic and not something they could distance themselves from unlike with foreign-owned P&O.
It must be remembered that whatever the shortcomings in the proposals RMT paints things in the darkest possible way. They have been referring to their 2022 predictions and saying 'we told you so' - those are the 2022 stories that the DfT was plotting to shut every ticket office by October 2022. A little exaggeration always helps from their end.

 

[northwichcat]

Could we be talking a fire and rehire type attempt here which the government condemned with regard to P and O?

I suspect in the case of franchises under DOR, the government will want to start the process of awarding new ones prior to the next election. Then it might be a case of there's no TUPE for most ticket office staff as the next franchise won't need them, but they'll advertise vacancies for "journey makers".

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I was discussing the matter in hand with a friend of the family, who mentioned that not so very long ago, Northern had spent a considerable amount of money on refurbishing the ticket office area and the associated waiting room at Heald Green railway station. Does anyone know how much those refurbishment works cost?

 

[Tayway]

ScotRail did a consultation a year or so back about reducing ticket office opening times, which I think struck a far better balance than the current English one. The proposals were backed up with hour-by-hour statistics of average ticket sales at each staffed station, and only three offices were shut entirely as far as I'm aware.

ScotRail Ticket Office Changes

ScotRail currently operates more than 2,000 train services through 362 stations, of which 143 have staffed ticket offices across the country.

www.scotrail.co.uk

ScotRail currently operates more than 2,000 train services through 359 stations, of which 143 have staffed ticket offices across the country.

Opening hours for ticket offices have by and large remained unchanged in over 30 years in Scotland with all key information captured in Schedule 17 of the Ticket and Settling Agreement which applies to all train operating companies (TOCs) within the United Kingdom. Changes to these hours must follow a prescribed procedure which requires extensive analysis of ticket office usage, sales data, and consultation with a variety of stakeholders including customers and other TOC's

 

[Krokodil]

It was common place to have British Rail appointed travel agents at one time, I worked in several and was highly involved issuing rail tickets.

Wasn't that how Ffestiniog Travel started?

The fact the railway network needs a huge subsidy is evidence enough that ticket offices aren't profitable.

It is not evidence enough at all. Some ticket offices are unprofitable. Many of those proposed for closure are not.

That's why a consultation is happening

Oh the naivety. The consultation is a formality, something that has to be done. You can tell by the spin they are putting on it that they aren't going to be honest.

But why? How can someone in an office help someone whose eyesight is iffy more than someone on a platform or concourse?

The office is a fixed location where you know someone can be found. Where on a crowded concourse is the "journeymaker" (the title alone is a joke)? Which platform will you find someone on? That's if they retain staff at all, even the government's most passionate cheerleaders on here have conceded that this will lead to many stations becoming unstaffed.

Let's explore that a bit. Why don't guards sell chocolate bars? Why does another member of staff have to do it?

If today was anything to go by, on my train earlier nothing would have been sold until the train was 2hrs 45mins from the origin station because I had my hands full with revenue duties and ringing control to get connections held. By the time that I would have had time to spare to flog some food, we would be ten minutes from the main destination of almost all of the passengers and most people would have had enough of waiting - they don't really want a half-eaten chocolate bar in hand while they're gathering up their luggage.

ScotRail did a consultation a year or so back about reducing ticket office opening times, which I think struck a far better balance than the current English one. The proposals were backed up with hour-by-hour statistics of average ticket sales at each staffed station, and only three offices were shut entirely as far as I'm aware.

ScotRail Ticket Office Changes

ScotRail currently operates more than 2,000 train services through 362 stations, of which 143 have staffed ticket offices across the country.

www.scotrail.co.uk

Now that is how a consultation should be done. Properly transparent.

 

[AlterEgo]

If today was anything to go by, on my train earlier nothing would have been sold until the train was 2hrs 45mins from the origin station because I had my hands full with revenue duties and ringing control to get connections held. By the time that I would have had time to spare to flog some food, we would be ten minutes from the main destination of almost all of the passengers and most people would have had enough of waiting - they don't really want a half-eaten chocolate bar in hand while they're gathering up their luggage.

So by comparison ticket office staff are sitting around doing very little then and being inefficient, have I got that right? They’ve got time to run a convenience store?

 

[squizzler]

I was discussing the matter in hand with a friend of the family, who mentioned that not so very long ago, Northern had spent a considerable amount of money on refurbishing the ticket office area and the associated waiting room at Heald Green railway station. Does anyone know how much those refurbishment works cost?

A considerable amount of money, apparently.

 

[Mainsideman]

I have just been released from my role as a dispatcher to start a guards course in September, feeling very lucky right now as my TOCs proposals are shocking!

 

[Krokodil]

So by comparison ticket office staff are sitting around doing very little then and being inefficient, have I got that right? They’ve got time to run a convenience store?

At Paddington, no. Some of the single-staffed ones, yes. Diversification could be the difference that makes them viable. Better to have a booking office who will sell you a cup of tea while you wait (and maintain the toilets, open the waiting room etc) than a completely unstaffed station with a bus shelter that stinks of urine.

BR experimented with diversification too - combined the duties of booking office clerk and signaller. They even considered doing it at Paignton (hence why the signaller is in a cupboard at the back of the booking office) but anyone who has seen GWR's sales statistics at the beginning of the thread, plus examined the timetable to see how many train movements there are can see that Paignton is another station whose booking office is busy enough to be worth keeping.

For some of the single-staffed booking offices, I'd actually suggest that upstaffing would be profitable. Install a gateline alongside the window and the reduction in fare evasion at those locations will easily pay for both the booking office clerk, and the gateline attendant.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But will you be able to pay in cash at Euston?

Yes, there's at least one cash TVM. Though proffering cash in London tends to bring a sort of "how quaint" reaction, very few people in London even carry cash any more.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jul 2023 ==

For some of the single-staffed booking offices, I'd actually suggest that upstaffing would be profitable. Install a gateline alongside the window and the reduction in fare evasion at those locations will easily pay for both the booking office clerk, and the gateline attendant.

It has long surprised me that in the UK gatelines and booking offices tend to be staffed separately. Slough "offside" is the only place I can think of where the booking office also monitors (or monitored) the gateline, but you'd think for a smaller station (like say Bletchley) this might make some sense.

One thing I find a pain about gatelines is that it's hard to see where the staff are sometimes. They used to hang around the manual gate, but since those were replaced with automatic wide gates they stand in random places. Having them in a window at the end would make it more obvious.

You used to sort of get a version of this in the North West years ago - 1980s build booking offices like Brinnington (or was it Bredbury, I forget) and Rochdale (I think) had the booking office controlling a turnstile, which you'd only be let through on paying or showing a ticket, and even more Merseyrail stations had that layout but without the physical turnstile. Salford Crescent was similar.

 

[WesternBiker]

It has long surprised me that in the UK gatelines and booking offices tend to be staffed separately. Slough "offside" is the only place I can think of where the booking office also monitors (or monitored) the gateline, but you'd think for a smaller station (like say Bletchley) this might make some sense.

Indeed - ticket booths by gatelines is a feature of a number of metro systems across the world. I was surprised to see them still in Stockholm given the gatelines accept contactless payments for single fares.

 

[Starmill]

Yes, there's at least one cash TVM. Though proffering cash in London tends to bring a sort of "how quaint" reaction, very few people in London even carry cash any more.

I don't think there are any locations where Avanti West Coast or c2c run the ticket office that do not take cash at one of the ticket vending machines. The spec was for a minimum of one at every station.

Some contrast to Northern where I think all of the ones which could take cash had that option disabled, and it was only a tiny number in any case. I am unaware if the cash acceptance at Northern machines has been restored anywhere, but I would be surprised if it has.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jul 2023 ==

It has long surprised me that in the UK gatelines and booking offices tend to be staffed separately. Slough "offside" is the only place I can think of where the booking office also monitors (or monitored) the gateline, but you'd think for a smaller station (like say Bletchley) this might make some sense.

This is a reasonably common situation at Chiltern e.g. High Wycombe, Gerrards Cross, Oxford Parkway (not actually a ticket office, just the gate staff have a ticket office machine behind the help desk). London Overground have several like this too, but they generally work with the ticket office closed but open (i.e. It's staffed with someone behind the glass all the time in order to monitor the gateline, but with a sign up saying no tickets available at this window, except for two hours a day).

 

[yorkie]

Train travel is not air travel.

No-one is claiming it is.

Can you generally rock up on a whim at the airport ten minutes before a flight departs and buy a ticket for that flight? Not really.

That's irrelevant.

I also don't understand the point you are making.

In any case, if you turn up 10 mins before departure and insist on using a ticket office to buy the ticket (or if that is the only option for the ticket you require), there is no guarantee you would make your intended train! If there is no issuing facility at the origin station, then there is no risk of that as you'd be entitled to board without penalty. So having a ticket office open, but with a long queue, can actually be worse than not having a ticket office.

 

[Krokodil]

It has long surprised me that in the UK gatelines and booking offices tend to be staffed separately. Slough "offside" is the only place I can think of where the booking office also monitors (or monitored) the gateline, but you'd think for a smaller station (like say Bletchley) this might make some sense.

The one I had in mind was Colwyn Bay. The gates are immediately adjacent to the booking office which means that the booking office clerk can act as the second person supervising the gateline (lone working not being a good idea for a gateline attendant, they get too much conflict). Do that at some of the threatened stations on Chat Moss and two staff pay for themselves where one doesn't.

 

[AlterEgo]

Train travel is not air travel. Can you generally rock up on a whim at the airport ten minutes before a flight departs and buy a ticket for that flight? Not really.

You can rock up ten minutes before check in closes and buy a ticket, and for cash in most circumstances too.

 

[philosopher]

You can rock up ten minutes before check in closes and buy a ticket, and for cash in most circumstances too.

Even if you can, the numbers actually buying flight tickets at the airport must be very small.

On trains it is very common though to buy tickets a few minutes before the train departs, particularly for shorter distance trips.

 

[AlterEgo]

Even if you can, the numbers actually buying flight tickets at the airport must be very small.

It didn’t use to be, and most tickets were sold face to face or over the phone until quite recently. You could even buy BA Shuttle tickets on board.

Airlines removed the expensive ways of fulfilling tickets and normalised eticketing because it made commercial sense.

 

[weeklycommuter]

LNER says they won't be selling Rovers on their TVMs or onboard, only in ticket offices. Would a customer traveling from Berwick to Darlington, intending to purchase (say) an All Lines Rover, thus be allowed to travel free?

Rail industry insiders stress importance of ticket office closure consultation

UK: Public consultation has begun over plans to close the majority of station ticket offices in England, with industry insiders stressing the importance of passengers giving feedback as part of the process.

www.railwaygazette.com

RDG said ‘an estimated 99%’ of all transactions made at ticket offices last year can be made at ticket vending machines or online, and TVMs would be upgraded where needed.
Asked by Rail Business UK about the inability of TVMs to sell products such as Rovers and Rangers, an RDG insider said ‘we are going to have to sort that. There are products that aren’t on TVMs and we’re going to have to migrate them.’ They added that this would need to be an industry-wide process backed with funding.
Rail Business UK understands that the ticket office measures also mean that discussions over the removal of the second member of staff on trains and the introduction of Driver Only Operation on more routes are currently off the table.

 

[D6130]

It has long surprised me that in the UK gatelines and booking offices tend to be staffed separately. Slough "offside" is the only place I can think of where the booking office also monitors (or monitored) the gateline,

For some of the single-staffed booking offices, I'd actually suggest that upstaffing would be profitable. Install a gateline alongside the window and the reduction in fare evasion at those locations will easily pay for both the booking office clerk, and the gateline attendant.

Certain ScotRail suburban stations have operated with the booking clerk monitoring - and when necessary operating the barriers - for many years. Charing Cross in Glasgow springs to mind.

 

[ClivePage]

Perhaps all of Europe is (at varying speeds) following America's bad example in many things especially transport policy.

Yes you are considerably younger than me, but that's not the point. My point is that while supermarkets might be inevitable, and in many ways preferable, a supermarket with no human staff present would be not just an eerie experience but a definitely inferior and unhelpful one.

In the case of the railways the human touch is vital for several reasons. For a start, while almost everyone uses a supermarket frequently, many, many people use trains only rarely. Many of these will be reluctant to do so again if they find the system difficult.

I'm used to online transactions and using a computer generally, but I have only today given up trying to purchase a ticket online from the dreaded Transpennine (going through the National Rail app only redirects me to TPE so it's no easier). Even when it goes smoothly it is a complicated business, and at more than one attempt when I had got as far as the 'pay now' button the whole thing froze. I've concluded it will be much easier to go to the station and make a simple request over the counter. While it's still possible!

TVMs are notoriously unreliable and many stations have only one. If it breaks down, or as often happens is unusable for other reasons, for example the screen being unreadable in bright sunshine, what are we suppose to do in the absence of staff?

TVMs are indeed very unreliable. Last Wednesday we bought tickets online and as usual expected to collect them at a ticket machine at Luton station - but none of the 3 machines I tried would work, one gave an error message, two just returned to the home screen. So we collected them from the ticket office. Exactly the same happened a week earlier, and I think the TVMs at Luton have failed about 4 times this year so far. What does one do when there is no way of collecting a pre-paid ticket - I've seen no official advice?

 

[AlterEgo]

TVMs are indeed very unreliable. Last Wednesday we bought tickets online and as usual expected to collect them at a ticket machine at Luton station - but none of the 3 machines I tried would work, one gave an error message, two just returned to the home screen. So we collected them from the ticket office. Exactly the same happened a week earlier, and I think the TVMs at Luton have failed about 4 times this year so far. What does one do when there is no way of collecting a pre-paid ticket - I've seen no official advice?

Board the train and explain. Out of service TVMs will be logged, usually with Control.

 

[Krokodil]

Out of service TVMs will be logged, usually with Control.

Should be logged.

 

[LowLevel]

Should be logged.

It is simply miraculous how often they seem to be frozen or similar, and I witness this is the case when the customer points it out to me - yet when I call the control to tell them they reckon it's reporting through the Remote Condition Monitoring as working OK and have to reboot them manually - even when it's on the white "Out of service" screen.

 

[yorkie]

Even if you can, the numbers actually buying flight tickets at the airport must be very small.

On trains it is very common though to buy tickets a few minutes before the train departs, particularly for shorter distance trips.

No-one is being prevented from doing that, are they?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jul 2023 ==

TVMs are indeed very unreliable. Last Wednesday we bought tickets online and as usual expected to collect them at a ticket machine at Luton station - but none of the 3 machines I tried would work, one gave an error message, two just returned to the home screen. So we collected them from the ticket office. Exactly the same happened a week earlier, and I think the TVMs at Luton have failed about 4 times this year so far. What does one do when there is no way of collecting a pre-paid ticket - I've seen no official advice?

Reliance on TVMs for collection is a short term issue; once all operators accept e-tickets you won't have to put up with them any longer.

If it is not possible to obtain the tickets at the origin station, you are entitled to board the train (show the reference number to any staff you encounter).

 

[tomuk]

They even considered doing it at Paignton (hence why the signaller is in a cupboard at the back of the booking office) but anyone who has seen GWR's sales statistics at the beginning of the thread, plus examined the timetable to see how many train movements there are can see that Paignton is another station whose booking office is busy enough to be worth keeping.

Paignton and the GWR data is interesting as a whole. At Paignton as well as many other similar medium\small ticket officed GWR stations they only have one TVM and in a lot of cases are card only one forcing those wanting to pay cash and/or collect ToD to use the ticket office. An extra cash taking TVM would reduced ticket office numbers considerably.
But in any case GWR are committing to retain a staffed presence on the 'ticket concourse' as they put it during virtually the same hours 7 days a week as the current office is open at Paignton.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I was discussing the matter in hand with a friend of the family, who mentioned that not so very long ago, Northern had spent a considerable amount of money on refurbishing the ticket office area and the associated waiting room at Heald Green railway station. Does anyone know how much those refurbishment works cost?

I hate to think but as a person I admire much Roger Ford stated in I think informed source law 1 - never assume railways are a rational organization!