Penalty fare final appeal

[smurffmo@yahoo]

First post, looks like a great resource and forum.

I'm handling an appeal against a penalty fare on behalf of my daughter and am now at the final appeal stage. As I'm not sure my arguments will ultimately be successful on mitigation I wanted to know whether the discounted payment would again be offered if the final appeal is rejected. If not it may be better to pay up although if there was nothing to lose financially by doing so I would like to put the case before the final appeal panel and see what they say. I could not find any information on this on publicly available sites.
Thank you.

 

[WesternLancer]

First post, looks like a great resource and forum.

I'm handling an appeal against a penalty fare on behalf of my daughter and am now at the final appeal stage. As I'm not sure my arguments will ultimately be successful on mitigation I wanted to know whether the discounted payment would again be offered if the final appeal is rejected. If not it may be better to pay up although if there was nothing to lose financially by doing so I would like to put the case before the final appeal panel and see what they say. I could not find any information on this on publicly available sites.
Thank you.

Hi - I think I've read on here that the clock is stopped whilst you are in the Appeal process - which presumably includes all stages.

Might be an idea to post the circs on here if you wish to, as people will give you a realistic idea if there is any hope with your daughter's appeal - and also how to craft your final stage appeal to maximise chances of success (you can post earlier efforts here maybe if that saves you rewriting all the background)

People will also proof read you intended 3rd stage wording if you did want to share your draft, and thought that might be of help.

There are some regular posters on here very familiar with the legislation that governs the Penalty Fare process who I have seen give very good advice.

 

[Haywain]

First post, looks like a great resource and forum.

I'm handling an appeal against a penalty fare on behalf of my daughter and am now at the final appeal stage. As I'm not sure my arguments will ultimately be successful on mitigation I wanted to know whether the discounted payment would again be offered if the final appeal is rejected. If not it may be better to pay up although if there was nothing to lose financially by doing so I would like to put the case before the final appeal panel and see what they say. I could not find any information on this on publicly available sites.
Thank you.

To allow us to give relevant advice, was the Penalty Fare Notice issued by a train company or Transport for London? There are differences between the schemes so it is important to know.

 

[smurffmo@yahoo]

Thanks all, it was a Govia Thameslink penalty fare, specifically the Great Northern line. Realistically I'm looking at mitigation at this point as the signage and equipment appear to be in order but my daughter swears that the terminal did beep for validation. There were a few other things going on with her that I can submit for mitigation but don't want to lose the discount by making this final appeal as it may be a long shot.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thanks all, it was a Govia Thameslink penalty fare, specifically the Great Northern line. Realistically I'm looking at mitigation at this point as the signage and equipment appear to be in order but my daughter swears that the terminal did beep for validation. There were a few other things going on with her that I can submit for mitigation but don't want to lose the discount by making this final appeal as it may be a long shot.

There’s no such thing as mitigation for a penalty fare, only a defence. Penalty fares are (supposedly!) for passengers who have made a genuine error to encourage them to be more careful next time. There is no harm in trying to plead a compelling reason as a defence, but “I swear the validator beeped” is unlikely to be considered compelling. If there are other factors you are declining to mention here which you want to advance in the final appeal, it will carry more weight if those factors were also advanced in the other stages too.

 

[RPI]

You will still have the opportunity to pay the lower amount after the final appeal.

 

[furlong]

Paying it does not prevent you from making an appeal - if you win, they have to refund the penalty element within 10 working days. If you look at the Penalty Fare notice provided at the time, it should have explained how the 21 day time limit to pay the reduced amount works with respect to appeals. If it didn't or the information is incorrect (as we saw on a recent notice posted on this forum), then that itself would itself be a valid ground for an appeal!

See 5(2A)(a)(ii) in the amended regulations:
"21 days to pay the reduced amount of the penalty fare does not include any time on appeal;"

 

[Hadders]

Please do let us know the full circumstances. It sounds as though your daughter might’ve used Oyster or contactless and we have come across several cases in the past of GTR staff issuing Penalty Fares in error because they have not been fully trained in how the system works.

 

[fandroid]

Please do let us know the full circumstances. It sounds as though your daughter might’ve used Oyster or contactless and we have come across several cases in the past of GTR staff issuing Penalty Fares in error because they have not been fully trained in how the system works.

This is important. If your daughter used either Oyster or a contactless bank card then TfL will have a record of the tap-in she claims was accompanied by a "beep". If she hasn't registered the card she used with TfL, get her to do that immediately. Then she can access the record of that journey on the TfL/Oyster website and see all taps of the card and the charges that were debited. It may well be that she has actually paid for that journey and if that's the case ,that should be enough to kill off the penalty fare altogether.

TfL look after all those payments, even for journeys on Thameslink and Great Northern. However, it does depend on her exit station being part of the Oyster and/or contactless system as well as the station she tapped in at.

 

[scrapy]

As you've appealed the penalty fare your daughter cannot be prosecuted. The penalty fare then becomes a civil debt. If your daughter is under 18 then there is little they can do to enforce payment.

 

[RPI]

As you've appealed the penalty fare your daughter cannot be prosecuted. The penalty fare then becomes a civil debt. If your daughter is under 18 then there is little they can do to enforce payment.

Is it not the case that upon conclusion of a stage 3 appeal then it could then be prosecuted? @Watershed may be able to clarify?

 

[island]

Is it not the case that upon conclusion of a stage 3 appeal then it could then be prosecuted? @Watershed may be able to clarify?

No, once a first stage appeal has concluded, prosecution is fully barred.

The only route open to the TOC thereafter is to take county court proceedings for the debt.

 

[furlong]

Is it not the case that upon conclusion of a stage 3 appeal then it could then be prosecuted? @Watershed may be able to clarify?

Only really if new information emerges that was not known to any part of the company at the time the PF was issued, of such importance that a court might consider that the Penalty Fare and the proceedings that followed were void. In practice this could be where the passenger lied to the inspector and the truth emerged during the appeals process enabling them to win the appeal on a technicality of their own creation i.e. the passenger was blatantly gaming the system.