Future of Ticket Office Consultations launched

[modernrail]

Sorry if this has been asked before but does this change the policy with automatic gate lines at all? If a station gateline is unstaffed do the gates have to remain open?


I don’t really understand the whole thing to be honest. With ticket buying as it is, surely it should be something like:

Big station - travel centre with multiple windows
Medium station - travel and info centre with 1 window
Small station - down to the TOC, but minimum staffing level for station safety and window open for 10 mins before next service
Very small station - safety monitored by CCTV

They seem to be going mad here - closing ticket offices completely at major stations? Name a single country that has done that? Feels like very classic Tory slash and burn.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The ticket office at Bletchley is rarely open, let alone used! Certainly the hours provided by LNW in their statement do not bear any resemblance to the current opening hours. Also Wolverton, which is apparently open daily despite having not been open at all for over a year! Another example of a brand new station building completed very recently but currently sitting empty and unused. Closures by stealth have already been happening, this process just formalises things.

Bletchley wasn't well used pre COVID either when it was open consistently. It was very common for there to be queues at the TVMs and nobody at the booking office at all, mostly because people were collecting online booked Travelcards and such.

 

[A0]

And this "consultation" is a sham. The decisions have already been made and will be implemented regardless of any comments received during the so called consultation.

With respect, that's how all "consultations" work - they are consulting on a proposed plan, not seeking to find another plan. It is about ensuring people have a say and to ensure that edge cases have been properly considered and there are mitigations in place. There may be modifications depending on the feedback they get - but frankly the kind of "barking at the moon" feedback you'll find on here or on Twitter won't change things one iota. Equally if one of the disabled groups comes up with a key concern that hasn't been properly considered you may find changes are made to ensure that is addressed.

At the end of the day, you're a customer of the rail network - they sell you a product in the way they want to sell you the product. If you don't like that, then use something else - it's no different to buying a pint of milk, if you don't like how Tesco sell you a pint of milk, buy it from Morrisons or the Co-op or a corner shop. You're under no compulsion to buy from them and they're under no compulsion to sell to you in a way which makes no practical sense for the business.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Barrow is just one example though, what about the other Northern ones like Victoria, Oxford Road, Liverpool, Bolton etc? Surely they make more sense particularly with Avanti closing all of theirs.

The TOCs won't have talked to one another to that extent. Northern's list is decidedly different in character from the others, which might relate to the poorer areas they serve and thus increased usage.

 

[michael74]

My tuppence worth..... People making comparisons to banks, for a while now my Mum has noted that everytime she walks into her local branch, the floating member of staff asks her what she is there to do and will direct her to a machine to continue the transaction away from the staffed counters (the argument is to allow them to deal with more complex transactions... Unsurprisingly they are now closing the branch due to "less people using the counter...." This isn't a consultation, its going to happen.......

As a GWR revenue guard, my prediction is fare evasion will increase (along with the risks of trying to deal with them) and those that have been unable to buy a ticket because the TVM is out of service (again) or the one TVM has a long queue will either just board and get a free journey, or worse get a UFN/PFN because the RPI doesn't believe them....

 

[glasgowniteowl]

Saying soon customers will be able to use cash at local retail outlets to purchase tickets, presumably something like a tie in with pay point or similar with a journey planner app for the store keeper etc and simply printing a paper ticket with aztec code,

would seem like nearly a privatisation of the ticket offices on the cheap, WH Smith are already in most of the prime locations already (they took on a lot of post office counter services in a similar sort of way)

 

[duncanp]

Your card and phone has been stolen, but you happen to have enough cash on you to spring hundreds for a walk up fare from London to Edinburgh?! Come off it - that’s pretty implausible, even by RailUK Forums minority standards.



Yes, that’s just ridiculous! EMR seem to be keeping the ones I’d have expected.

Not necessarily.

If card and/or phone is stolen you can phone up the bank and get a code to get emergency cash from a machine. Not everyone has a smartphone, and the phone call could be made from a police station or using someone else's phone.

And perhaps the number of people wanting to pay cash for a Kings Cross to Edinburgh ticket is small, but what about Kings Cross to Potters Bar or some other suburban station?

 

[Bletchleyite]

And perhaps the number of people wanting to pay cash for a Kings Cross to Edinburgh ticket is small, but what about Kings Cross to Potters Bar or some other suburban station?

Cash payment is very close to not being a thing in London at all. Everyone pays by card (or phone) in London. You can't even pay cash on a bus - the most "proletarian" thing in the world, just about. A very large number of retailers in London are card only and have been for a long time now, and you get looked at funny in most places if you proffer cash, even if it's accepted. Even buskers have card machines.

Barrow to Ulverston, say, I'd expect a lot of cash. Barrow is a very traditional (and quite poor) place. That's probably why Northern are keeping more open.

 

[43066]

Not necessarily.

If card and/or phone is stolen you can phone up the bank and get a code to get emergency cash from a machine. Not everyone has a smartphone, and the phone call could be made from a police station or using someone else's phone.

And perhaps the number of people wanting to pay cash for a Kings Cross to Edinburgh ticket is small, but what about Kings Cross to Potters Bar or some other suburban station?

It’s a small enough number that it wouldn’t make any difference, and the benefits from removing cash might well exceed the lost revenue.

You realise you haven’t been able to pay cash for a bus fare in London for ten years now?

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

The TOCs won't have talked to one another to that extent. Northern's list is decidedly different in character from the others, which might relate to the poorer areas they serve and thus increased usage.

I think for the most part, Northern's approach is, at least partially influenced by there being cash/ticket handling staff there regardless - as there are also traincrew/revenue protection depots at most of those locations - at which, they need people balancing and reconciling shifts, cashing the takings up, sorting out irregularities/issuing errors, sorting out the physical ticketing equipment etc.

 

[Titfield]

I agree. Progress is inevitable, but staff should be well looked-after if that means their job isn't needed any more, such as giving lots of options for moving to another role, cross-training or decent redundancy money.

Neither extreme is good.

But very often the changes are not so dramatic as to be a "your job isnt needed" and redundacy is offered. Often it is incremental as you gradually lose the stuff you are comfortable with but the stuff you dont like / dont enjoy becomes the bulk of the work. Cross training is an excellent idea but in my experience it is minimal and then you are on your own. Without going too OT I am not surprised that post covid so many decided not to come back to work.

 

[birchesgreen]

To be honest if we believed this was genuinely to provide a better service and not just to get rid of people then a lot more people would be in acceptance (or be less against it anyway) but the last few decades have made cynics of us all.

 

[HORNIMANS]

Bletchley wasn't well used pre COVID either when it was open consistently. It was very common for there to be queues at the TVMs and nobody at the booking office at all, mostly because people were collecting online booked Travelcards and such.

people do use ticket offices for other things than buying tickets
they are the face of the railway, enquiries for train times for those that are blind, unusual tickets, routes, seat reservations, sleeper reservations, those who cant operate TVM machines, ticket easements,and others Icould mention. what about turning up at the station and their is 100 plus wanting to buy tickets and only 3 TVM,s
and in times of disruption.

 

[Halwynd]

What? Investigate the car parking before you go is nonsense. Why make things more difficult when it would be much easier to have the parking ticket macing accept card? A universal system that doesn't need apps or phone calls.

I always check the car parks at a new destination the night before - purely to avoid those abominations that require an App, phone call or text!

And it can't be too long now before the railway catches on to the parking industry leg-lifting called 'convenience' fees and tries the same with e-tickets?!

 

[MikeWM]

It seems it happened to Farage at Coutts because he failed to maintain the required balance for their super-premium services.

Then they probably should have told him that, rather than leaking private customer financial information to the media, which either is illegal or ought to be.

--

I know you enjoy a good conspiracy but I'm not sure the present situation is really akin to Nazism.

Of course not, but that's not the point of the poem.

Nevertheless, I appreciate I'm very off-topic, so I'll leave that conversation here. I'll try to do better for my next - 4,000th (!) - post.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

people do use ticket offices for other things than buying tickets
they are the face of the railway, enquiries for train times for those that are blind, unusual tickets, routes, seat reservations, sleeper reservations, those who cant operate TVM machines, ticket easements,and others Icould mention. what about turning up at the station and their is 100 plus wanting to buy tickets and only 3 TVM,s
and in times of disruption.

The vast majority of people are perfectly happy to use online or smart ticketing. There is an increasingly small, diminishing demographic that this is problematic for. TVMs are largely irrelevant, they are used increasingly less too and will eventually be removed in the fullness of time.

Clearly this small % needs to be supported, but in most cases, the support is by helping them to transition to alternatives, which are actually normally better in the long run for them, rather than maintaining the status quo. You have to also contrast this against the fact that the vast majority of ticket offices are absolutely hopeless, and in some cases, simply cannot sell you the cheapest ticket, even if they wanted to, for example Advance Purchase fares on the day at Northern stations, (only available online or TVM). It's a fantasy land to think you're getting 'expert' advice about 'easements' etc in 2023 at a ticket office - you're lucky if you get the right ticket you actually need - a few notable and very noble exceptions aside.

 

[43066]

people do use ticket offices for other things than buying tickets
they are the face of the railway, enquiries for train times for those that are blind, unusual tickets, routes, seat reservations, sleeper reservations, those who cant operate TVM machines, ticket easements,and others Icould mention. what about turning up at the station and their is 100 plus wanting to buy tickets and only 3 TVM,s
and in times of disruption.

They can’t really be “the face of the railway” when 90% plus don’t use them. On the other hand these changes will most likely lead to a worse experience for those who do, certainly if the TfL experience is anything to judge by (and national rail ticketing is far more complex).

 

[A0]

They can’t really be “the face of the railway” when 90% plus don’t use them. On the other hand these changes will most likely lead to a worse experience for those who do, certainly if the TfL experience is anything to judge by (and national rail ticketing is far more complex).

Bit in bold - is there any evidence that it has been detrimental ? As you pointed out TFL stopped accepting cash payments for bus fares 10 years ago and IIRC it was about 8 years ago they closed the Underground ticket offices.

Have there been any reports or studies in to the effect of these changes ?

 

[43066]

I think there is appetite by the DoT, the TOCS and The Treasury. It is the trade unions who appear to resist every move unless their members are well compensated for any change and if they do not want to change they do not have to.

Those of us who work in non unionised environments seem to be subject to constant change and we just have to like it or lump it.

This is complete nonsense. Trade unions have embraced all sorts of changes on the railway. They do however ensure their members tend to be treated a little better than others who just have to “lump it”.

The fact that’s seen as a bad thing by some is bizarre (and often those who have themselves been treated badly!), but is typical of the mentality of envy that exists in this country.

 

[alastair]

The GWR document says rovers and rangers can be bought on train (and online and telesales) in alternative provision section.

So it appears GWR conductors and guards (and if you take it literally a driver on a DOO service) will sell you a rover.

GWR do in theory sell rovers/rangers on line but only with postal delivery and a compulsory £7.50 fee for next day delivery so not an attractive option.

 

[43066]

Bit in bold - is there any evidence that it has been detrimental ? As you pointed out TFL stopped accepting cash payments for bus fares 10 years ago and IIRC it was about 8 years ago they closed the Underground ticket offices.

Have there been any reports or studies in to the effect of these changes ?

London Travelwatch did a study in 2016 (post closure) which was a mixed bag, and highlighted concerns around staff being less visible, feeling less safe and accessibility. They concluded they weren’t opposed to closures as long as their recommendations were adopted, but it’s not clear that they ever were. Link below:

https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/def...ket_office_closures_on_london_underground.pdf

It was inevitable at some point, but surely nobody is naive enough to imagine that this process happening now is primarily intended to improve things for passengers? It’s about cost saving first and foremost.

 

[northwichcat]

The TOCs won't have talked to one another to that extent. Northern's list is decidedly different in character from the others, which might relate to the poorer areas they serve and thus increased usage.

I think the approach of one ticket office in Warrington town centre is workable. If you want to undertake a transaction that can't be handled online or at a ticket machine, then you have somewhere to go. In other areas it gets a lot more messy as different nearby stations are managed by different operators who are all closing ticket offices on different criteria. It also seems at the moment TfW and PTE managed ticket offices are excluded. So Runcorn East may end up being a regional ticket office for the Halton and Northwich areas.

In relation to your other post about where cash fares are paid, the question should be how many of the tickets sold are to barriered stations? Any cash fares for Lostock Gralam or Greenbank taken at Northwich station probably won't be collected either on the train or at the destination. Cash fares from Levenshulme certainly will be collected at Manchester Piccadilly or Stockport.

 

[Goldfish62]

Bit in bold - is there any evidence that it has been detrimental ? As you pointed out TFL stopped accepting cash payments for bus fares 10 years ago and IIRC it was about 8 years ago they closed the Underground ticket offices.

Have there been any reports or studies in to the effect of these changes ?

Cash fares were at a much lower level than ticket office usage on National Rail before TfL decided to remove cash on buses. It was an excellent, if bold, move that everyone got used to very quickly and the amount of issues after implementation was extraordinarily low.

On the Underground ticket machines were upgraded and additional ones installed before ticket offices were closed.

In both the above cases the fares were a lot simpler than on the National Rail network. For this reason and the rushing through without first ensuring that the full range of tickets are available by other means that I'm dead against this proposal as it stands.

 

[northwichcat]

They can’t really be “the face of the railway” when 90% plus don’t use them.

Well one morning when I was travelling and the line was blocked, the man from the ticket office came out multiple times to both platforms informing passengers what was going on. He also asked the school children for the name of their schools so he could phone the schools to let them know how many of their pupils were stuck there. While not everyone is that proactive, he certainly was the face of the railway for everyone that morning, regardless of whether you'd purchased a ticket off him or not.

 

[A0]

In both the above cases the fares were a lot simpler than on the National Rail network. For this reason and the rushing through without first ensuring that the full range of tickets are available by other means that I'm dead against this proposal as it stands.

But how many people are buying "complex" fares and how many are simply buying a return to 3 stops down the line and are using the ticket office because they use the office out of habit or "don't like using machines" ?

 

[geordieblue]

At the end of the day, you're a customer of the rail network - they sell you a product in the way they want to sell you the product. If you don't like that, then use something else - it's no different to buying a pint of milk, if you don't like how Tesco sell you a pint of milk, buy it from Morrisons or the Co-op or a corner shop. You're under no compulsion to buy from them and they're under no compulsion to sell to you in a way which makes no practical sense for the business.

The rail network is not a business - it is a public service, largely publicly funded. Evidently there must be a degree of cost efficiency particularly in the current climate but the enormous amount of state subsidy demonstrates that the network is by no means an independent business with 'customers' in the usual meaning of the word. Thus you can understand that there may be some disquiet when a service many people rely on, and contribute taxes towards, may become worse - whereas such disquiet would be misplaced at, say, Tesco, where the supposed free market can at least provide an alternative. There is no other rail network.

 

[A0]

The rail network is not a business - it is a public service, largely publicly funded. Evidently there must be a degree of cost efficiency particularly in the current climate but the enormous amount of state subsidy demonstrates that the network is by no means an independent business with 'customers' in the usual meaning of the word. Thus you can understand that there may be some disquiet when a service many people rely on, and contribute taxes towards, may become worse - whereas such disquiet would be misplaced at, say, Tesco, where the supposed free market can at least provide an alternative. There is no other rail network.

It is a business - it just happens to provide a service as do other businesses. And there are alternatives to travelling by train - so there isn't a monopoly on transport provision.

But the biggest nonsense is claiming this will make the service worse. That ~90% of tickets aren't bought at a ticket office tells you that removing a channel used by about 10% isn't going to materially change the service. No doubt it will save money - and it will change the way some - though a small and declining number - buy their tickets.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

So my local ticket office is closing quelle surpise but being replaced with a customer assistance person for exactly the same time so will still need to heat the office and provide all the same welfare for them but now there will only be one ticket machine and even those who know what they are doing need a good minute to buy a ticket. So will this customer assistance person now be provided with a portable machine more costs (they've not long installed new kit in the ticket office) or will they just be on hand to help people use the machines. Oh im guessing they will now need to be provided with cold weather clothing as well.

This is a bonkers idea if its about saving money but feels like its another Shapps special that the RDG have just rolled over and accepted. The industry is seriously lacking anybody with balls to come out and speak up for the industry.

 

[Goldfish62]

But how many people are buying "complex" fares and how many are simply buying a return to 3 stops down the line and are using the ticket office because they use the office out of habit or "don't like using machines" ?

So are you saying no one goes to the ticket office because they can't or don't know how to buy the ticket they want by other means?

A couple of weeks ago I went to the TVM at my local station to collect a ticket and the chap in front of me asked how to find London Waterloo on the machine. I informed him that it was covered by "London Terminals". He had no idea. It's really simple things like that that stop people using TVMs (and in the case of my local station not enough of them so the ticket office is needed to supplement them at busy times).

 

[wilbers]

They seem to be going mad here - closing ticket offices completely at major stations? Name a single country that has done that? Feels like very classic Tory slash and burn.

Sweden, see post #184 in this thread.