Future of Ticket Office Consultations launched

[bramling]

If you're going to somewhere "unfamiliar" which was the case cited, wouldn't you check out the parking options on line before setting out ? I would.

I might if I have time to do that. Not always a given.

And if there's an option to pay for the parking whilst I'm doing that, why wouldn't I ? Then it's all done - all I need to do is park and walk to the station.

There’s a number of potential reasons why not. What if it’s full when I get there? But the big one for me would be what if I have a change of plan in the meantime? I value flexibility and don’t like to be be tied down.

 

[A0]

nothing says technological progress like having to pre-plan how long you think you might stay and rehearsing the payment process, lol.

(I am not a luddite in this regard, but I don't think car parking should have middlemen. If cash has to go, at least replace it with a machine capable of taking contactless payments, as some councils have done. Or make it free.)

Most (if not all) station parking isn't on a 'by hour' basis, instead it's usually 2 or 3 options, those being 'All day', 'Off peak i.e. after 10am) or Weekend. None of the stations I use have the traditional 'pay and display' approach of buying by the hour.

Edit - @Bletchleyite made the same point in post #237

 

[Gloster]

I would point out one general point. The fact that you are using an Internet forum suggests that the overwhelming majority of people commenting on this thread have reasonably easy access to the Internet and are competent in its use. There are still quite a number of people who don’t have easy access to and have difficulty using the Internet. Their opinions are unlikely to appear, except occasionally, in this thread. Do not think that because many (most?) posters think that losing ticket offices is no great problem because they are comfortable with the alternatives, that there are not many people who think that losing offices is a problem: they haven’t been able to come on line to express their opinions.

 

[HST274]

I think there is appetite by the DoT, the TOCS and The Treasury. It is the trade unions who appear to resist every move unless their members are well compensated for any change and if they do not want to change they do not have to.

Those of us who work in non unionised environments seem to be subject to constant change and we just have to like it or lump it.

Is thata good thing? I'd argue something in the middle is preferable, whatever that may be.

 

[trundlewagon]

I don't have an issue with ticket office closures, the staff should be on the concourse assisting passengers, rather than sitting behind a sheet of glass doing a crossword, as per the LU approach.

That isn't exactly what's happening though.

For example, WMT are retaining staff at a handful of stations and replacing all their other staff with 'a mobile team'.

I guess anyone who needs assistance needs to hope that their trip coincides with the time that the 'bloke in a van' is at their local station.

 

[birchesgreen]

Luckily i've only once needed to use a car park where an app needed to be downloaded to pay, unfortunately i only had (barely) 3G and so couldn't download the app. I just went home.

 

[MikeWM]

The majority of *all* age groups now have Smart Phones https://www.statista.com/statistics/300402/smartphone-usage-in-the-uk-by-age/

Are they all comfortable with using them to pay for things? I'm mid-40s and I'm certainly not - I think that's a totally different thing from making a telephone call or 'surfing' the internet. We're changing an awful lot of things awfully quickly and we're not pausing one minute to consider the implications and inevitable disadvantages.

Out of interest at what point do you say it's OK to discontinue something due to low usage ?

When usage is close to zero. Which it will get to naturally if the new mechanism is so much better and convenient. 405-line TV broadcasts are an interesting example.

 

[ainsworth74]

I can see how it isn't entirely unrelated but I do think we're getting a bit into the weeds at the moment with the discussion of car parking using apps on a thread about ticket offices so I'd ask that we conclude it there or if anyone does wish to continue the discussion they start a new thread.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is thata good thing? I'd argue something in the middle is preferable, whatever that may be.

I agree. Progress is inevitable, but staff should be well looked-after if that means their job isn't needed any more, such as giving lots of options for moving to another role, cross-training or decent redundancy money.

Neither extreme is good.

 

[12LDA28C]

I would point out one general point. The fact that you are using an Internet forum suggests that the overwhelming majority of people commenting on this thread have reasonably easy access to the Internet and are competent in its use. There are still quite a number of people who don’t have easy access to and have difficulty using the Internet. Their opinions are unlikely to appear, except occasionally, in this thread. Do not think that because many (most?) posters think that losing ticket offices is no great problem because they are comfortable with the alternatives, that there are not many people who think that losing offices is a problem: they haven’t been able to come on line to express their opinions.

According to some on here, those people's opinion is irrelevant as the majority rules, so the minority just has to suck it up.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That isn't exactly what's happening though.

For example, WMT are retaining staff at a handful of stations and replacing all their other staff with 'a mobile team'.

I guess anyone who needs assistance needs to hope that their trip coincides with the time that the 'bloke in a van' is at their local station.

The impression I have is that these staff will be doing stuff like opening/closing toilets, cleaning etc, rather than providing ticketing assistance.

The booking office at Bletchley is barely used. They just sit there doing nothing while people use the TVMs to collect pre-bookings. Almost all tickets sold are returns to London or Travelcards. It's not massively dissimilar to Merseyrail.

 

[duncanp]

I note it also says 'can only pay in cash', not 'prefer to pay in cash' as per the current NRCoT. Creep, creep.

Are they going to amend the NRCoT to say that people must pay with a card if they have one?

How is a guard or RPI going to prove that a customer who says "...I've only got cash..." actually has a card?

What happens if someone turns up at Euston wanting to use cash to buy a ticket? Whilst the numbers of such people are small they won't be zero, and it is often the poorer members of society who are more dependent on cash.

I don't think the consequences of these proposals have been properly thought through (no surprise there then)

And this "consultation" is a sham. The decisions have already been made and will be implemented regardless of any comments received during the so called consultation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

According to some on here, those people's opinion is irrelevant as the majority rules, so the minority just has to suck it up.

That, outside of protected characteristics, is how business works. All of it. It's simply uneconomic to provide for voluntary minorities, i.e. people who choose not to use a more mainstream method of purchase even though they could.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jul 2023 ==

What happens if someone turns up at Euston wanting to use cash to buy a ticket? Whilst the numbers of such people are small they won't be zero, and it is often the poorer members of society who are more dependent on cash.

There is at least one cash TVM, I think it's one of the LNR ones located in the booking office foyer.

 

[43066]

In terms of London and Manchester, I take it King's Cross and Oxford Road/Victoria will become the 'ticket retail hubs' for the city centres in retaining their booking offices, on behalf of Euston and Piccadilly respectively which are both planned to close?

No idea re. Manchester, but EMR are retaining their ticket office at St Pancras, albeit with slightly tweaked hours, and there will be others at main London termini.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jul 2023 ==

Are they going to amend the NRCoT to say that people must pay with a card if they have one?

This would make a lot of sense, to be fair. As would complete removal of cash!

 

[Bletchleyite]

In terms of London and Manchester, I take it King's Cross and Oxford Road/Victoria will become the 'ticket retail hubs' for the city centres in retaining their booking offices, on behalf of Euston and Piccadilly respectively which are both planned to close?

You mean "will be used by the very small number of people who insist on buying from a person behind glass for cash*"? Yes, but I doubt it'll make much difference to their figures because most people don't buy train tickets that way.

* Both Euston and Manchester Piccadilly have cash TVMs and you will be able to buy from a person with a tablet by card, so it *is* just that tiny (and diminishing) group.

 

[duncanp]

That, outside of protected characteristics, is how business works. All of it. It's simply uneconomic to provide for voluntary minorities, i.e. people who choose not to use a more mainstream method of purchase even though they could.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jul 2023 ==



There is at least one cash TVM, I think it's one of the LNR ones located in the booking office foyer.

Well I would hope that it is made mandatory that every station has at least one TVM that accepts cash. (Is that a flock of flying pigs I can see outside?)

This is made all the more relevant by the stories in the papers at the moment about people (not just a certain politician that everyone loves to hate) having their bank accounts closed on a whim.

 

[43066]

You mean "will be used by the very small number of people who insist on buying from a person behind glass for cash"? Yes, but I doubt it'll make much difference to their figures because most people don't buy train tickets that way.

These are the locations it would make sense to keep largely traditional due to the number of foreign tourists etc. in London making complex queries. St Pancras and Kings + are well used throughout the day.

 

[Philip]

You mean "will be used by the very small number of people who insist on buying from a person behind glass for cash"? Yes, but I doubt it'll make much difference to their figures because most people don't buy train tickets that way.

A lot of people still pay with cash in the centre of Manchester (and probably in other city centres). And I suspect a lot of people would prefer to buy their tickets or ask for advice (who aren't doing it online) at the more organised environment of a person at a desk in an office, rather than going up to a person holding a tablet on a noisy and chaotic concourse.

 

[MikeWM]

You mean "will be used by the very small number of people who insist on buying from a person behind glass for cash*"? Yes, but I doubt it'll make much difference to their figures because most people don't buy train tickets that way.

Or buy a rover/ranger. Or get a refund on a ticket. Or get a seat reservation for an existing ticket. Or a plusbus add-on to an existing ticket. Or...

 

[duncanp]

No idea re. Manchester, but EMR are retaining their ticket office at St Pancras, albeit with slightly tweaked hours, and there will be others at main London termini.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jul 2023 ==



This would make a lot of sense, to be fair. As would complete removal of cash!

The removal of cash would make sense to everyone except, er, the people who only have cash on them.

So if you only have cash because you card or phone has been stolen, tough ****, you can walk home, which is a bit of a problem if you are at Kings Cross and you live in Edinburgh.

 

[Bletchleyite]

These are the locations would make sense to keep largely traditional due to the number of foreign tourists etc. in London making complex queries. St Pancras and Kings + are well used throughout the day.

There's a strong case, if designing this properly, for the 20-30 or so key main stations to have significantly sized travel retail facilities - call them "travel centres" or whatever - which would have TVMs, people helping, plus a few desks where advice can be obtained, including on TfL/TfGM/Merseytravel/Nexus etc products. I'm thinking Euston, Kings X/St Pancras (no need for both, they're next to each other, you could even have it in one of those buildings in between the two or one of the street facing retail units on the front of St P which is convenient for both), Paddington, Victoria, Manc Picc, Edinburgh Waverley, Glasgow Central, Liverpool Lime St, Newcastle, Bristol TM and such.

There'd even be an argument for Network Rail providing these (or another contractor) as a wholly impartial GBR facility, not a TOC one, so the experience is consistent.

But because this is being done on a per-TOC basis, we're left with nonsense like Barrow in Furness staying open and Euston closing. Sure, Barrow is probably one of the places where cash is more commonly used, but cash TVMs are possible.

 

[HST274]

The impression I have is that these staff will be doing stuff like opening/closing toilets, cleaning etc, rather than providing ticketing assistance.

The booking office at Bletchley is barely used. They just sit there doing nothing while people use the TVMs to collect pre-bookings. Almost all tickets sold are returns to London or Travelcards. It's not massively dissimilar to Merseyrail.

This to me shows that as ever there should be more compromise. Predictably the two sides have become NO TICKET OFFICES or KEEP ALL THE TICKET OFFICES. In reality, perhaps in the case mentioned the staff being allocated a more 'active role' might be beneficial. In my local station however which has been allocated the future role of 'Customer service and retail hub' by WMR, the ticket office plays a much more active role, almost always dealing with at least one customer (usually having a small queue in 'peak' times), and (I would guess) a majority of those not using e-tickets using the office over a TVM. In this case perhaps the staff being shifted around would be a worse case scenario. That is why I hope this consultation period is more than a sham designed to push it through with the pretence of support.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The removal of cash would make sense to everyone except, er, the people who only have cash on them.

So if you only have cash because you card or phone has been stolen, tough ****, you can walk home, which is a bit of a problem if you are at Kings Cross and you live in Edinburgh.

My phone is in one pocket. My wallet is in the other. All my cash is in my wallet.

As such, it isn't really a possible scenario for me to be left with only cash. Indeed if I'm concerned I'm more likely to take one payment card out of my wallet and hide it in my bag, or similar, then there is a backup.

 

[43066]

The removal of cash would make sense to everyone except, er, the people who only have cash on them.

So if you only have cash because you card or phone has been stolen, tough ****, you can walk home, which is a bit of a problem if you are at Kings Cross and you live in Edinburgh.

Your card and phone has been stolen, but you happen to have enough cash on you to spring hundreds for a walk up fare from London to Edinburgh?! Come off it - that’s pretty implausible, even by RailUK Forums minority standards.

But because this is being done on a per-TOC basis, we're left with nonsense like Barrow in Furness staying open and Euston closing.

Yes, that’s just ridiculous! EMR seem to be keeping the ones I’d have expected.

 

[MikeWM]

This is made all the more relevant by the stories in the papers at the moment about people (not just a certain politician that everyone loves to hate) having their bank accounts closed on a whim.

It seems that few care (indeed some find it amusing or 'karma') - until it happens to them or someone they like, by which point it is usually too late to complain. I have a vague memory of there being a rather well-known poem about that.

 

[Silverlinky]

The impression I have is that these staff will be doing stuff like opening/closing toilets, cleaning etc, rather than providing ticketing assistance.

The booking office at Bletchley is barely used. They just sit there doing nothing while people use the TVMs to collect pre-bookings. Almost all tickets sold are returns to London or Travelcards. It's not massively dissimilar to Merseyrail.

The ticket office at Bletchley is rarely open, let alone used! Certainly the hours provided by LNW in their statement do not bear any resemblance to the current opening hours. Also Wolverton, which is apparently open daily despite having not been open at all for over a year! Another example of a brand new station building completed very recently but currently sitting empty and unused. Closures by stealth have already been happening, this process just formalises things.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It seems that few care (indeed some find it amusing or 'karma') - until it happens to them or someone they like, by which point it is usually too late to complain. I have a vague memory of there being a rather well-known poem about that.

It seems it happened to Farage at Coutts because he failed to maintain the required balance for their super-premium services.

It does occasionally happen to others due to criminal matters, and the law requires banks not to disclose to people the reasons for this because it might prejudice an investigation. I'm not sure how that can be fixed, and that isn't really in scope for this thread anyway as cash payment is not (for now) being prevented, there are and still will be cash TVMs.

 

[ainsworth74]

It seems that few care (indeed some find it amusing or 'karma') - until it happens to them or someone they like, by which point it is usually too late to complain. I have a vague memory of there being a rather well-known poem about that.

I know you enjoy a good conspiracy but I'm not sure the present situation is really akin to Nazism.

 

[Philip]

But because this is being done on a per-TOC basis, we're left with nonsense like Barrow in Furness staying open and Euston closing. Sure, Barrow is probably one of the places where cash is more commonly used, but cash TVMs are possible.

Barrow is just one example though, what about the other Northern ones like Victoria, Oxford Road, Liverpool, Bolton etc? Surely they make more sense particularly with Avanti closing all of theirs.

 

[HORNIMANS]

No idea re. Manchester, but EMR are retaining their ticket office at St Pancras, albeit with slightly tweaked hours, and there will be others at main London termini.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jul 2023 ==



This would make a lot of sense, to be fair. As would complete removal of cash!

and illegal