ASLEF non-contractual overtime bans -various dates and TOCs

[TTD31]

If only ASLEF would make that point more clearly when on the radio or TV.

I don't think ASLEF media team have done a very good job at explaining this, as nearly all comments by various media outlets seem to focus on pay percentages and amount earned, and imply that is 100% of the dispute.

I wouldn't be surprised if even members of Government and DfT have only got the edited version that it is basically only a pay amount dispute too.

I actually read one article that said ASLEF are doing an overtime ban, because their staff are well paid and don't need the overtime, and that was it. Clearly no attempt at explanation and bit of 2+2 is 5 filling in going on, which ASLEF are not attempting to fix.

This is how the press release starts. ....dispute over pay. So reads as just pay, nothing else in dispute.

ASLEF Announces Further Overtime Ban | ASLEF

ASLEF, the train drivers’ union, has announced that members at 16 companies will refuse to work overtime from 17 - 22 July in the union’s ongoing national dispute over pay.

aslef.org.uk

Genuine question as I haven't really kept up with the ASLEF dispute as much as I should've but is this a case of ASLEF not correctly showcasing that the strikes are for pay and T&Cs or is it predominantly the media who are spinning it to just be about pay so they can run "greedy train drivers want more money" narrative and disregarding the argument that pay rises will come at the cost T&Cs?

 

[ainsworth74]

Exactly how many of us feel, the job requires enough compromises on the home life front as it is.

I’m a driver and I’ve said to my friends they could offer me a 100% rise and I’d vote against it with those changes to conditions. I’ll never vote for it.

Which is why its frustrating (or, well it would be were I a member!) that ASLEF are playing directly into the hands of the right wing media (who love a good "GREEDY BUTTON PUSHING TRAIN DRIVERS ON CUSHY SALARY DEMAND EVEN MORE OF YOUR MONEY TO CONTINUE PUSHING BUTTONS" headline) and the Government who will be very happy for headlines like that to exist by making it more about pay than conditions. Barmy.

 

[Snow1964]

Genuine question as I haven't really kept up with the ASLEF dispute as much as I should've but is this a case of ASLEF not correctly showcasing that the strikes are for pay and T&Cs or is it predominantly the media who are spinning it to just be about pay so they can run "greedy train drivers want more money" narrative and disregarding the argument that pay rises will come at the cost T&Cs?

No the ASLEF press release clearly states dispute is about pay (full stop), nothing about T&Cs in dispute. Therefore perfectly reasonable for media to treat it as 100% about pay.

If I was a train driver I would be giving my local Rep a real ear bashing as they are clearly not successfully conveying upwards any unhappiness about T&Cs, as it appears T&Cs are no longer in the dispute.

 

[12LDA28C]

Thats the unintended consequence of an overtime ban. The operator cuts services and the spares sit spare. And the fewer trains running are packed so who really wins ?

Clearly in that instance the operator has misjudged (or deliberately overstated) the amount of services run on overtime / RDW and reduced the service by far more than was necessary to take RDW into account. A poor decision by the TOC and passengers suffer as a result, but at least they can claim it's all the fault of the drivers.

 

[father_jack]

Clearly in that instance the operator has misjudged (or deliberately overstated) the amount of services run on overtime / RDW and reduced the service by far more than was necessary to take RDW into account. A poor decision by the TOC and passengers suffer as a result, but at least they can claim it's all the fault of the drivers.

Agree entirely.

 

[Silverlinky]

No the ASLEF press release clearly states dispute is about pay (full stop), nothing about T&Cs in dispute. Therefore perfectly reasonable for media to treat it as 100% about pay.

If I was a train driver I would be giving my local Rep a real ear bashing as they are clearly not successfully conveying upwards any unhappiness about T&Cs, as it appears T&Cs are no longer in the dispute.

If you listen to any news piece the line that "our members have not had a payrise for five years" will come out. Interviews can be edited, some bits discarded and some not, but that is the bit that is never discarded, and therefore it does indeed give the impression that this is a pay dispute above everything else.

 

[Carlisle]

Ah yes the myth that industrial action drives passengers away permanently. Never happened yet in the history of the railway, so a risk worth taking…

At least 3 people used their car instead of the train for last years summer holidays due to strikes but not sure how it’s actually affected long term usage .

 

[jon0844]

Plus planes dont have tresspassers, animals, red signals, stations, level crossings, bridges, points, PSR's, ESR's etc at 38,000 feet

Pilots don't generally stop a plane to go and fault find and have to identify issues outside the train, or have to consider the lives of 1700+ people when a train has derailed or something else has happened that puts everyone in danger.

On the other hand, pilots may well prove their worth if there's a major incident in the air.

In other words, while both are safety critical roles, there are differences but the same outcome. Both are responsible for hundreds of lives and while the dangers might be different, they're just as important in their respective industries. It seems silly to judge how important one is over the other, or compare salaries and worth.

 

[irish_rail]

Aslef can talk about terms and conditions all day long, but the media will not report it. End 9f story. It just doesn't fit the narrative the British press want to portray. "Train drivers not wanting to work additional overtime" doesn't have the same ring to it as "greedy train drivers want more pay". So aslef can publicise the fact we want to keep our Ts and Cs til its blue in the face, but the media will unlikely report it so its a waste of time.

 

[Bantamzen]

Aslef can talk about terms and conditions all day long, but the media will not report it. End 9f story. It just doesn't fit the narrative the British press want to portray. "Train drivers not wanting to work additional overtime" doesn't have the same ring to it as "greedy train drivers want more pay". So aslef can publicise the fact we want to keep our Ts and Cs til its blue in the face, but the media will unlikely report it so its a waste of time.

More importantly, the public don't care which is partly the reason the media don't report it. Most people at this point only care to know if / when this dispute will end, and what will be left of the network afterwards. Some will be even wondering about the alternatives if things don't turn around soon. The railway industry has been falling apart and failing the public increasingly over the years, this for most is just more of the same I'm afraid.

 

[43066]

More importantly, the public don't care which is partly the reason the media don't report it. Most people at this point only care to know if / when this dispute will end, and what will be left of the network afterwards. Some will be even wondering about the alternatives if things don't turn around soon. The railway industry has been falling apart and failing the public increasingly over the years, this for most is just more of the same I'm afraid.

So do you think the government should settle the dispute, or do you think it should be allowed to run on until the next election, wasting billions more than the cost of ending it?

I know what I’d prefer as a taxpayer…

 

[greyman42]

So do you think the government should settle the dispute, or do you think it should be allowed to run on until the next election, wasting billions more than the cost of ending it?

I know what I’d prefer as a taxpayer…

How would the government settle the dispute?

 

[43066]

How would the government settle the dispute?

The quickest and easiest way to resolve it would be removing some of the changes to Ts and Cs which they know ASLEF will never accept, as has been pointed out again and again on here by those who know what they’re talking about.

Similar disputes in the private sector operators including LUMO, and with TFL, Scotrail etc have long since been resolved. That’s because those employers don’t have a bottomless pit of taxpayers’ cash to squander…

 

[Robertj21a]

So do you think the government should settle the dispute, or do you think it should be allowed to run on until the next election, wasting billions more than the cost of ending it?

I know what I’d prefer as a taxpayer…

Not really sure what you expect.

There's little need for the government to do anything as it appears that few voters are particularly bothered - and, in any event, many of those will be happy to see Rail Unions being confronted (any rights or wrongs of the various disputes aren't of interest to the general public).

I also very much doubt that any alternative incoming government would do much until they had addressed the far more relevant issues in the Health Service, and teaching.

 

[43066]

Not really sure what you expect.

There's little need for the government to do anything as it appears that few voters are particularly bothered - and, in any event, many of those will be happy to see Rail Unions being confronted (any rights or wrongs of the various disputes aren't of interest to the general public).

I also very much doubt that any alternative incoming government would do much until they had addressed the far more relevant issues in the Health Service, and teaching.

You are as always assuming that your extremely narrow world view (as someone who claims to hardly use the railway, yet has an almost pathological dislike of railway trade unions) in some way reflects the majority. I can assure you, you do not speak for most people!

The current government are polling appallingly, suggesting that the public are absolutely not behind them. In the dispute polling I have seen there’s a 50/50 split for and against, and government is very clearly getting the blame for disputes (again reflected in its appalling polling). Much as disputes aren’t ever popular, especially amongst those disrupted, they are clearly not benefiting the government either.

That’s because most sensible and even handed people will understand that the disputes can either be settled (as has happened at open access operators and FOCs), or they can be dragged on at great expense. It’s public money they’re wasting.

Personally I’d be quite happy to keep going as we are until the next election, and to further escalate matters in the autumn.

 

[infobleep]

Mick Whelan made that point on Sky News the other day, but the BBC has hardly mentioned the overtime ban. It was a minor "in other news" item on the 6 O'clock news on Monday.

Glad to hear it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jul 2023 ==

I don't think ASLEF media team have done a very good job at explaining this, as nearly all comments by various media outlets seem to focus on pay percentages and amount earned, and imply that is 100% of the dispute.

I wouldn't be surprised if even members of Government and DfT have only got the edited version that it is basically only a pay amount dispute too.

I actually read one article that said ASLEF are doing an overtime ban, because their staff are well paid and don't need the overtime, and that was it. Clearly no attempt at explanation and bit of 2+2 is 5 filling in going on, which ASLEF are not attempting to fix.

This is how the press release starts. ....dispute over pay. So reads as just pay, nothing else in dispute.

ASLEF Announces Further Overtime Ban | ASLEF

ASLEF, the train drivers’ union, has announced that members at 16 companies will refuse to work overtime from 17 - 22 July in the union’s ongoing national dispute over pay.

aslef.org.uk

That is not good. If I was an ASLEF member I wouldn't be impressed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jul 2023 ==

If you listen to any news piece the line that "our members have not had a payrise for five years" will come out. Interviews can be edited, some bits discarded and some not, but that is the bit that is never discarded, and therefore it does indeed give the impression that this is a pay dispute above everything else.

Interviews live on the radio or TV are not edited. I tend to listen to LBC and interviews with ASLEF tend to be live.

I remember the extremely poor press releases from the RMT during the Guard dispute on Govia Thameslink Railway.

 

[Dan G]

Has this action had much impact?

 

[43066]

Has this action had much impact?

Far fewer Thameslinks getting in in the way, which is nice.

 

[Hadders]

Has this action had much impact?

Half the Thameslink services between Peterborough and Horsham and Cambridge and Brighton have been removed meaning that Stevenage is left rather inconvenience 15/45 minute gaps.

 

[TreacleMiller]

As a Driver I do agree with you. I think the issue is that Drivers these days come from varied backgrounds, some from lower paid jobs, some have been in the industry/role for most of their adult life, some have a higher level of education and have come from careers that are paid on par with Train Drivers wages.
People from the latter group are much more likely to wonder ‘is this job really worth it for what’s on offer elsewhere?’.
For the shift work alone we aren’t paid enhanced rates for anti social hours (anti social hours being a fundamental ‘goes without saying’ aspect of the job). If say you have a Driver on 60k working erratic shifts who knows they could potentially find a job ‘outside’ with more sociable hours but for 10k less in salary (due to their previous work experience), they could easily argue that the 50k salary in that role is comparable to the 60k Drivers salary when you take into account the ‘shift allowance’.
Train Driving is well paid, I would never dispute that, but remember only a very small part of this dispute is wage related.

Pretty much me. I've declined going back I to my old profession twice in the last 12 months, on both occasions for about 15k less than my current salary but with all the nice 9-5 benefits. Doesn't appeal at all.

Drivers are well paid at most TOCs and spend a lot of time getting paid for being at work and not working. There's nothing like it.

That doesn't mean it's at the rate it should be. With RPI being what it is, if the government was not controlling pay at private companies we would have had deals sorted last year.

 

[Fragezeichnen]

That’s because most sensible and even handed people will understand that the disputes can either be settled (as has happened at open access operators and FOCs), or they can be dragged on at great expense. It’s public money they’re wasting.

I don't think that's only one side that is doing the dragging on. Yes, the TOCs cannot negotiate in a sensible way, but equally ASLEF would not pursue it's current strategy if it had to concern itself with risk that competing operators would swoop in and take over the market, or with the possibility that their action would force the employer into insolvency. Many decry the influence of the government in preventing TOCs from making deals, but the government influence of protecting the TOCs from open access competition and providing effectively unlimited quantities of cash to ensure that salaries are always paid even if the business is not earning any revenue seems to be taken for granted.

A while some back German freight drivers were stupid enough to actually go on strike. Some of them lost their jobs afterwards, because the customers whose freight they were driving around immediately cancelled their contracts and switched to another operator.

It will never happen, but personally I would be for as little government influence as possible. Give the TOCs a fixed amount of money and the freedom to manage it how they want. If the demands of the unions prove totally unsolvable with available resources, them the operator will fail and the now unemployed staff will have to take their chances with whatever pay and T&C's the replacement operator thinks will be acceptable to enough people.

 

[43066]

but equally ASLEF would not pursue it's current strategy if it had to concern itself with risk that competing operators would swoop in and take over the market, or with the possibility that their action would force the employer into insolvency.

Yet ASLEF has indeed pursued the same strategy on the freight side, and have received modest pay rises in exchange for reasonable tweaks to Ts and Cs. The reason you’ve heard very little about it is that, for the reasons you state, both sides recognise the importance of getting an agreement that works for both sides.

ASLEF aren’t asking for anything unreasonable compared to other unions - merely a modest rise and no bonfire of Ts and Cs, yet the government has allowed the dispute to continue for over a year - at enormous cost to the industry (which then has to be bailed out by the taxpayer) and the wider economy. It’s frankly reckless behaviour on the part of this increasingly rudderless and toxic government.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jul 2023 ==

Give the TOCs a fixed amount of money and the freedom to manage it how they want. If the demands of the unions prove totally unsolvable with available resources, them the operator will fail and the now unemployed staff will have to take their chances with whatever pay and T&C's the replacement operator thinks will be acceptable to enough people.

Yet as shown by freight/open access, ASLEF aren’t making unreasonable demands and driving companies under. The government is the unreasonable party here…

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

ASLEF aren’t asking for anything unreasonable compared to other unions - merely a modest rise and no bonfire of Ts and Cs, yet the government has allowed the dispute to continue for over a year - at enormous cost to the industry (which then has to be bailed out by the taxpayer) and the wider economy. It’s frankly reckless behaviour on the part of this increasingly rudderless and toxic government.

Torys on a scorched earth policy now to leave a complete mess for Labour should they be elected of course who will not be able to appease all the public sector workers although I would hope they would delink T&C's issue here to restore stability to the industry and then see how well the industry can do when it can operate normally.

 

[Sunil_P]

Hourly only Waterloo to Shepperton (xx:42), and most other SWR routes.

 

[baz962]

Has this action had much impact?

There are two ways of looking at it. Most people that comment on here, keep saying that people work from home or find a different way etc and that's quite true. People always seem to miss the point that it costs the economy and the government have admitted it's cost quite a bit of money. Of course wether it's had an impact in concentrating minister's minds is another question yet.

 

[Goldfish62]

Hourly only Waterloo to Shepperton (xx:42), and most other SWR routes.

Half hourly in the peaks.

Unusually I had to travel in Waterloo twice in both peaks this week and it was very much business as usual.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Half the Thameslink services between Peterborough and Horsham and Cambridge and Brighton have been removed meaning that Stevenage is left rather inconvenience 15/45 minute gaps.

The 1T45/1T52 15.42 Kings Lynn - Kings Cross and 18.09 Kings Cross - Kings Lynn diagram was also cancelled due to crew which displaced several hundred punters onto the 18.12 Peterborough to change at Stevenage. I dont think I've ever had to stand before after Stevenage on a class 2 Cambridge, including Arsenal football nights.

18.12 was a 700/1 which left full and near-crush loaded throughout, made worse by an additional stop at Finsbury Park.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

There's little need for the government to do anything as it appears that few voters are particularly bothered - and, in any event, many of those will be happy to see Rail Unions being confronted (any rights or wrongs of the various disputes aren't of interest to the general public).

I also very much doubt that any alternative incoming government would do much until they had addressed the far more relevant issues in the Health Service, and teaching.

One would hope that the current government would address the relevant issues in the Health Service and teaching.... Of course, they have no interest in settling the rail disputes so may well leave those to the next government

 

[Dan G]

There are two ways of looking at it. Most people that comment on here, keep saying that people work from home or find a different way etc and that's quite true. People always seem to miss the point that it costs the economy and the government have admitted it's cost quite a bit of money. Of course wether it's had an impact in concentrating minister's minds is another question yet.

I don't disagree; I just have seen very little changes to services this week

 

[Topological]

There are two ways of looking at it. Most people that comment on here, keep saying that people work from home or find a different way etc and that's quite true. People always seem to miss the point that it costs the economy and the government have admitted it's cost quite a bit of money. Of course wether it's had an impact in concentrating minister's minds is another question yet.

Devils advocate a little.

We are seeing interest rates rise to reduce disposable income to reduce spending in the economy. This is the basic logic that underlies the model of central banks everywhere.

A rail strike prevents people travelling and spending...

Now here a lot is made about that "loss" to the economy, but the interest rate rises are entirely designed to generate "loss" to the economy. There will be some sitting thinking that these rail strikes are actually helping long term.

I still cannot see this as anything more than members of ASLEF costing themselves for no likely change. Sad but in current times very true.