Should the closed stations between Preston and Lancaster be reopened? ?

[JamieL]

That‘s quite a leap of logic. How is Lancaster to Bailrigg a long distance journey?

It's not - that is my point. The railway line in this section simply doesn't not serve the local populace - it is for long distance commuters only. Contrast that to the railway services operated in the south where suburban services run alongside longer distance ones. Of course, if Bailrigg was added it would serve local traffic and weekend long distance commuters. The railway answer alas is 'get a bus!'.

 

[eldomtom2]

Not for the first time, I really don’t understand what yo7 are trying to say.

I think for starters that you underestimate the need for modal shift.

How do you think it could be minimised?

Hasn't this entire thread been about the costs and benefits of the necessary infrastructure for new local trains to not get in the long distance trains' way?

 

[Bald Rick]

The railway line in this section simply doesn't not serve the local populace - it is for long distance commuters only.

I wouldn’t say Preston to Lancaster is long distance. Neither would I call the intervening area ‘suburban’ c

Contrast that to the railway services operated in the south where suburban services run alongside longer distance ones.

Like say Salisbury to Warminster, or Norwich to Diss, for example?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2023 ==

Hasn't this entire thread been about the costs and benefits of the necessary infrastructure for new local trains to not get in the long distance trains' way?

Yes. I was asking what your solution would be to minimising the effect on long distance passengers would be.

I think for starters that you underestimate the need for modal shift.

I‘m not sure I do.
I think perhaps many people don’t understand what solutions there are for an efficient and sustainable transport system.

 

[The Planner]

So that is xx.41 to xx.53 inclusive - what about movements during xx.54 to xx.40?

Easy enough to check on RTT, but taking Lancaster as the more important location due to terminating trains etc
xx.57 Glasgow
xx.02 Barrow
xx.09 Edinburgh
xx.12 Morecambe
xx.19 Glasgow
xx.30 is normally an Intermodal slot
xx.45ish is normally a Royal Mail slot

 

[JamieL]

Easy enough to check on RTT, but taking Lancaster as the more important location due to terminating trains etc
xx.57 Glasgow
xx.02 Barrow
xx.09 Edinburgh
xx.12 Morecambe
xx.19 Glasgow
xx.30 is normally an Intermodal slot
xx.45ish is normally a Royal Mail slot

Doesn't look too difficult to tweak given the slack in the programme after the xx.19 Glasgow!

 

[Bald Rick]

Doesn't look too difficult to tweak given the slack in the programme after the xx.19 Glasgow!

you might like to check the gap between the Glasgow and Intermodal at Preston….

 

[The Planner]

Doesn't look too difficult to tweak given the slack in the programme after the xx.19 Glasgow!

That is just looking at Lancaster, does it work in Glasgow or Edinburgh? It takes that Intermodal 44 minutes to get from Lancaster to Tebay where it can be looped, or 1 hr 10 to get to Carlisle. Takes an Avanti 24 minutes to do Lancaster to Tebay with an Oxenholme stop, TPE 25 minutes. The xx.57 is rapidly catching up that xx.30.

 

[JamieL]

That is just looking at Lancaster, does it work in Glasgow or Edinburgh? It takes that Intermodal 44 minutes to get from Lancaster to Tebay where it can be looped, or 1 hr 10 to get to Carlisle. Takes an Avanti 24 minutes to do Lancaster to Tebay with an Oxenholme stop, TPE 25 minutes. The xx.57 is rapidly catching up that xx.30.

We are talking about finding a little time capacity between Preston and Lancaster for the existing services that already run to make a few extra stops. Your own timetable shows there is a little slack there that can be utilised.

Not aimed at you personally Planner, but I think the railwayman approach of seeking out "no" as an an answer is indicative of the problem with the railways. This thread has pretty convincingly demonstrated the worth of some new stations on this stretch. The capacity is tight but do-able. The trains already run. The customers are waiting. But the every instinct is to say "no!". As in the railway can add no value here. Get a bus instead. I don't think that approach is sustainable long term if the railways are to continue to be publically funded by the very people they refuse to serve.

 

[The Planner]

We are talking about finding a little time capacity between Preston and Lancaster for the existing services that already run to make a few extra stops. Your own timetable shows there is a little slack there that can be utilised.

Not aimed at you personally Planner, but I think your approach of seeking out "no" as an an answer is indicative of the problem with the railways. This thread has pretty convincingly demonstrated the worth of some new stations on this stretch. The capacity is tight but do-able. The trains already run. The customers are waiting. But your every instinct is to say "no!". As in the railway can add no value here. Get a bus instead. I don't think that approach is unsustainable long term if the railways are to continue to be publically funded by the very people they refuse to serve.

Where have I said no? I am just illustrating the issues at hand. Simple fact is based upon the current timetable, you add 2½ minutes into the Barrow train per stop. If it is the one stop then it probably works, add in another station and you are retiming the Avanti Edinburgh (which has a cost in terms of journey time), then the Morecambe which can have turnarounds as low as 4 minutes at Morecambe. That could possibly be solved with another diagram, but that then starts working against the new stations.

 

[SynthD]

Surely you see the optics of this? Southern long distance travellers use trains, northerners must use buses.

London has 311 Tesco stores, while Lancaster and Morecambe have 5. There are more people in London, unless the optics have tricked Tesco too.

 

[Bevan Price]

Personally I think that "NO" is the only sensible answer. The local population is too low to support the costs of building and operating a new station.

And a walk of over 0.5 mile from the nearest possible station site to the main parts of the University Campus is never going to be competitive when a bus circles round the campus site 3/4 times per hour until midnight, going to/from Lancaster city centre, with many continuing to Morecambe (Stagecoach service 100).
(And in wet weather, that walk - with virtually no shelter - is long enough to ensure that you get thoroughly soaked. )

 

[Bald Rick]

This thread has pretty convincingly demonstrated the worth of some new stations on this stretch.

It hasn’t done that convincingly, at all.

Remember it’s not just about the benefit, it’s about the cost too. And not just in cash, but relative costs and benefits to those affected.

The capacity is tight but do-able.

is it? I think a proper study of the timetable is needed to confirm that.


For the avoidance of doubt I’m not saying “no” either, merely pointing out that even to get to “it might be worth looking at” someone will need to work out how to overcome some significant timetable issues, that look to me to need some very expensive infrastructure.

 

[JamieL]

London has 311 Tesco stores, while Lancaster and Morecambe have 5. There are more people in London, unless the optics have tricked Tesco too.

This is not comparing like-for-like. The question is does Preston and Lancaster just have Tesco Superstores, or do they also have Tesco Express? I see from Google that the offer the same range of store options, scaled for the local populace. Which brings us nicely onto another comparison:
- Preston and Lancaster - 141,818 and 144,246 - 2 railway stations
- Southampton - 254,361 - circa-12 railway stations

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jul 2023 ==

And a walk of over 0.5 mile from the nearest possible station site to the main parts of the University Campus is never going to be competitive when a bus circles round the campus site 3/4 times per hour until midnight, going to/from Lancaster city centre, with many continuing to Morecambe (Stagecoach service 100).
(And in wet weather, that walk - with virtually no shelter - is long enough to ensure that you get thoroughly soaked. )

People manage to regularly walk distances further than that to other railway stations? I am about 900metres away from Bristol Temple Meads but still manage to walk to the station. All noted on the buses but the same applies in any city where trains and buses run alongside each other with the railway still getting plenty of business.

 

[AlastairFraser]

More buses. The customer demand is in the order of magnitude that fits buses, rather than considerable capital expenditure.

The buses are already saturated and Stagecoach can't run any more. There are too many exurban car dependant developments in the area which clog up the A6 in south Lancaster.

The only thing that would allow you to run more would be a Lancaster city centre congestion charge, but the Wyre and rural Lancaster City reps on Lancs County would block this. A station at Bailrigg with a decent number of spaces would cut congestion right down, allowing more buses to run without terminally slow journey times.

A P and R with buses would incur too much of a time penalty for exurban and rural commuters.
And given 3k houses will be built in the vicinity soon, something needs to be done soon.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jul 2023 ==

So you'd have a bus doing a circuit of Garstang and Caterall, taking the best of an hour around the housing estates, to a new station a mile away from the town (presumably next to the Kenlis Arms) down a winding narrow lane, to catch a train for ten miles to Preston, Lancaster or Morecambe stations, none of which are near the industrial areas where people need to get to. Meaning a second bus ride needed.........Far quicker to catch a bus

Garstang to Preston/Lancaster is an absolute age on the bus.
You need parkways to cater for the large exurban villages too, which is why I suggested a large parkway at Bailrigg, and at Broughton.
The 3k houses being built next to Bailrigg suggest that flooding is not an insurmountable issue in the area (some flood mitigation must be in place for planning permission as we both know).
You could make the parkway at Bailrigg a bus interchange visited by the 40/41 and the Uni buses, and potentially the 89 too when the roads of the "Garden village" (3k houses) are built, so people can connect in.
It'd only need to be a few mins diversion and would still overall speed up journeys.

 

[Falcon1200]

Is to solely focus on the "fares covering costs" aspects I think that suggests a very narrow view of the definitions of "utility" and "effectiveness".

As with any such scheme, the level of its utility absolutely must be assessed against its cost. And I doubt anyone would disagree that the grandiose schemes proposed here, involving not only new stations but additional loops with their attendant signalling and OLE alterations, extra trains and their crews, plus recasting the WCML timetable, would be incredibly expensive. That money has to come from somewhere.

 

[randyrippley]

The buses are already saturated and Stagecoach can't run any more. There are too many exurban car dependant developments in the area which clog up the A6 in south Lancaster.

The only thing that would allow you to run more would be a Lancaster city centre congestion charge, but the Wyre and rural Lancaster City reps on Lancs County would block this. A station at Bailrigg with a decent number of spaces would cut congestion right down, allowing more buses to run without terminally slow journey times.

Stagecoach are running fewer buses on the University service than they were pre-covid. Assuming they can find the staff, numbers could easily be doubled.
As for the A6 in "South Lancaster" getting clogged, this is in reality due to traffic coming from M6 J33 to the university via Galgate, where the cross roads create a pinch point. Easily solved by building the dedicated university junction J33A which was originally planned in the 1970s. That would then open up Hazelrigg for development for the second university site on the east of the motorway (again plans from the 1970s) but most importantly you could place a park-and-ride there, served by the university buses

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jul 2023 ==

The 3k houses being built next to Bailrigg suggest that flooding is not an insurmountable issue in the area (some flood mitigation must be in place for planning permission as we both know).

The houses are being built in the knowledge that there is no workable flood mitigation. It's yet another case of planners ignoring the realities on the ground. Galgate floods every few years, some of the houses are uninsurable.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jul 2023 ==

You could make the parkway at Bailrigg a bus interchange visited by the 40/41 and the Uni buses, and potentially the 89 too when the roads of the "Garden village" (3k houses) are built, so people can connect in.
It'd only need to be a few mins diversion and would still overall speed up journeys.

So people get the 40/41 to Bailrigg/Outhwaite interchange...........a train to Lancaster and then maybe another train to Morecambe, or alternatively walk to Lancaster bus station where they catch another bus, quite possibly the one they just got off.
It's absolutely farcical

 

[Bletchleyite]

Stagecoach are running fewer buses on the University service than they were pre-covid. Assuming they can find the staff, numbers could easily be doubled.
As for the A6 in "South Lancaster" getting clogged, this is in reality due to traffic coming from M6 J33 to the university via Galgate, where the cross roads create a pinch point. Easily solved by building the dedicated university junction J33A which was originally planned in the 1970s. That would then open up Hazelrigg for development for the second university site on the east of the motorway (again plans from the 1970s) but most importantly you could place a park-and-ride there, served by the university buses

The other problem comes when an accident closes the motorway and most traffic then goes via central Lancaster. That's the argument in favour of a western bypass which could go on the trackbed of the old Glasson branch (I think it's that), cross the Lune on a new bridge and meet the Bay Gateway at Salt Ayre. It's been proposed for years but not funded, and there are environmental issues as it'd be running through what is de-facto (and in some place de-jure) a salt flats nature reserve.

If that was done through traffic could be banned entirely from central Lancaster, which would help massively, and you could probably do some rejigging like make one of the two current bridges pedestrian and cycle only.

 

[randyrippley]

The other problem comes when an accident closes the motorway and most traffic then goes via central Lancaster. That's the argument in favour of a western bypass which could go on the trackbed of the old Glasson branch (I think it's that), cross the Lune on a new bridge and meet the Bay Gateway at Salt Ayre. It's been proposed for years but not funded, and there are environmental issues as it'd be running through what is de-facto (and in some place de-jure) a salt flats nature reserve.

If that was done through traffic could be banned entirely from central Lancaster, which would help massively, and you could probably do some rejigging like make one of the two current bridges pedestrian and cycle only.

That will never happen. Not withstanding the complications of Great Crested Newts, there's no way permission will ever be given to build on an internationally recognised RAMSAR site. That whole Lune Estuary area is environmentally too sensitive for it to ever happen. Wouldn't be an easy build either - you'd need to expand a single track railway to a dual carriageway across wet, very soft boulder clay. Big land grab on bad ground at near sea level

 

[yoyothehobo]

That will never happen. Not withstanding the complications of Great Crested Newts, there's no way permission will ever be given to build on an internationally recognised RAMSAR site. That whole Lune Estuary area is environmentally too sensitive for it to ever happen. Wouldn't be an easy build either - you'd need to expand a single track railway to a dual carriageway across wet, very soft boulder clay. Big land grab on bad ground at near sea level

Just a point, boulder clay is generally fairly good to build on, the biggest issue at this location is tidal flat deposits that extend quite a way from the river Lune.

 

[Bartsimho]

This is not comparing like-for-like. The question is does Preston and Lancaster just have Tesco Superstores, or do they also have Tesco Express? I see from Google that the offer the same range of store options, scaled for the local populace. Which brings us nicely onto another comparison:
- Preston and Lancaster - 141,818 and 144,246 - 2 railway stations
- Southampton - 254,361 - circa-12 railway stations

Southampton is a great example here.

Bitterne (55,388), Woolston (91,822) and Sholing (73,474) shouldn't exist anymore as they all have more convenient road bridges and major roads for trunk bus routes. This would also speed up services in Southampton from Portsmouth and Brighton. One of Netley (64,764) or Hamble (72,282) should close as they serve almost no people and are very close together. Millbrook (20,988) is also useless and could be served by buses and the Cruise terminal is just as close to Southampton Central. Then there's Redbridge which is less than a mile from Totton and really shouldn't be open.

These still exist and are kept open without the operator moving to replacement buses while those in the North are faced with more "a bus would do" attitudes.

As an industry there is a big advantage of people looking down at buses but there appears to a refusal to take advantage of this situation anywhere other than the South

 

[Bald Rick]

Southampton is a great example here.

Bitterne (55,388), Woolston (91,822) and Sholing (73,474) shouldn't exist anymore as they all have more convenient road bridges and major roads for trunk bus routes. This would also speed up services in Southampton from Portsmouth and Brighton. One of Netley (64,764) or Hamble (72,282) should close as they serve almost no people and are very close together. Millbrook (20,988) is also useless and could be served by buses and the Cruise terminal is just as close to Southampton Central. Then there's Redbridge which is less than a mile from Totton and really shouldn't be open.

These still exist and are kept open without the operator moving to replacement buses while those in the North are faced with more "a bus would do" attitudes.

As an industry there is a big advantage of people looking down at buses but there appears to a refusal to take advantage of this situation anywhere other than the South

Spot the difference between:

1) stations that exist and therefore cost nothing to build, with an existing timetable that serves them; and,
2) stations that don’t exist and therefore cost something to build, and require a complete change to the timetable to serve them.

 

[yorksrob]

Oh that's interesting. So that sounds like you were around there in the late 1970s and I was there about 10 years later. So putting all that with what I recall, it sounds like the student population fell in Morecambe after 1977/81 due to the floods, but by 1990ish it was still significant. (Maybe it went up again since by 1985 most students would have had no knowledge of the previous floods?). Then at some point since 1990, the Uni student population in Morecambe pretty much went what now seems to be virtually zero. I assume that's partly due to more accommodation available in Lancaster, and partly because as congestion in Lancaster has steadily got worse, travel times from Morecambe have become less and less attractive. I haven't lived in the area the entire time, so not too sure of timelines for that decline. Related but not quite the same thing, I recall around 1997-8 the Carleton nightclub in Morecambe was one of the main student clubbing venues - that's now closed down.

Carleton was a main student venue into the late 90's at least. I don't recall looking at accommodation in Morecambe at that time though.

 

[Iskra]

Carleton was a main student venue into the late 90's at least. I don't recall looking at accommodation in Morecambe at that time though.

Carleton was still going in 2008-2012 when I was at Lancaster Uni.

On topic: I don’t think any intermediate stations should re-open between Lancaster and Preston. It’s quite empty from a population standpoint, has good road links and it’s a core, busy two-track railway.

 

[yorksrob]

Carleton was still going in 2008-2012 when I was at Lancaster Uni.

On topic: I don’t think any intermediate stations should re-open between Lancaster and Preston. It’s quite empty from a population standpoint, has good road links and it’s a core, busy two-track railway.

I've thought that Garstang might be a go-er (stopped off there on the bus during one of the rail strikes and it seemed busy enough) but it would depend on trains being available to stop there .

 

[Iskra]

I've thought that Garstang might be a go-er (stopped off there on the bus during one of the rail strikes and it seemed busy enough) but it would depend on trains being available to stop there .

It's got a population of just over 4000, personally I don't think that's enough to disrupt the current services.

 

[islandmonkey]

Southampton is a great example here.

Bitterne (55,388), Woolston (91,822) and Sholing (73,474) shouldn't exist anymore as they all have more convenient road bridges and major roads for trunk bus routes. This would also speed up services in Southampton from Portsmouth and Brighton. One of Netley (64,764) or Hamble (72,282) should close as they serve almost no people and are very close together. Millbrook (20,988) is also useless and could be served by buses and the Cruise terminal is just as close to Southampton Central. Then there's Redbridge which is less than a mile from Totton and really shouldn't be open.

These still exist and are kept open without the operator moving to replacement buses while those in the North are faced with more "a bus would do" attitudes.

As an industry there is a big advantage of people looking down at buses but there appears to a refusal to take advantage of this situation anywhere other than the South

My disappointment is immeasurable, and my day is ruined

In all seriousness, some of those railway station locations aren't great. Millbrook isn't even in Millbrook, it's off Foundry Lane. Bitterne isn't great, nor is Hamble, but the rest of them aren't useless at all. I know that because I have used them, as a start point to get elsewhere within the wider railway network, rather than having to get a bus to Southampton Central and start my journey there.

The poor journey time between Southampton and Portsmouth is more down to the alignment of the railway line...not many places on the railway network where you can see where you were five minutes ago looking over the River Itchen. Then the bends at St. Denys, Woolston, Bursledon, and so forth, reducing average speeds.

 

[eldomtom2]

I‘m not sure I do.

I think your comments about air travel suggest that you do.

 

[30907]

Southampton is a great example here.

Bitterne (55,388), Woolston (91,822) and Sholing (73,474) shouldn't exist anymore as they all have more convenient road bridges and major roads for trunk bus routes. This would also speed up services in Southampton from Portsmouth and Brighton. One of Netley (64,764) or Hamble (72,282) should close as they serve almost no people and are very close together. Millbrook (20,988) is also useless and could be served by buses and the Cruise terminal is just as close to Southampton Central. Then there's Redbridge which is less than a mile from Totton and really shouldn't be open.

A very good example indeed - Southampton, twice the size of Lancaster District and six times the size of Lancaster proper, and at one end of a pretty (sub)urbanised area, and each of those local stations (except St Denys) can only support 1tph.
(Preston has two "suburban" stations in Lostock Hall and Bamber Bridge, and again they sustain an hourly service only, less than Morecambe does).

An hourly service at Bailrigg, if it were feasible with existing resources, might attract a few longer distance passengers, but to achieve modal shift over the major flow into Lancaster you would need at least a half-hourly service, and therein lies the problem.

 

[Bletchleyite]

An hourly service at Bailrigg, if it were feasible with existing resources, might attract a few longer distance passengers, but to achieve modal shift over the major flow into Lancaster you would need at least a half-hourly service, and therein lies the problem.

I don't think Bailrigg would really be about travelling into Lancaster even with 2tph.

 

[JamieL]

Southampton is a great example here.

Bitterne (55,388), Woolston (91,822) and Sholing (73,474) shouldn't exist anymore as they all have more convenient road bridges and major roads for trunk bus routes. This would also speed up services in Southampton from Portsmouth and Brighton. One of Netley (64,764) or Hamble (72,282) should close as they serve almost no people and are very close together. Millbrook (20,988) is also useless and could be served by buses and the Cruise terminal is just as close to Southampton Central. Then there's Redbridge which is less than a mile from Totton and really shouldn't be open.

These still exist and are kept open without the operator moving to replacement buses while those in the North are faced with more "a bus would do" attitudes.

As an industry there is a big advantage of people looking down at buses but there appears to a refusal to take advantage of this situation anywhere other than the South

Good post, thank you. I lived in Southampton many years back and agree on the bus routes - but I believe many users of these local railway stations are probably intercity commuters, e.g. those who live in the Southampton region and work in Portsmouth, or vice versa. Back in the day it was many of the displaced VT workers for example when it moved from Woolston to Portsmouth dockyard. Your comments on different attitudes between north and south really resonate though and are spot on - why does the south get such intercity links from the suburbs whilst the north has to do with buses whilst the railway lines passes through directly adjacent unable to help?