Thameslink Prosecution 18 year old

[worriedmummy]

Please help Im a very worried mum of 18 year old daughter who suffers from depression and self harm and suicide attempts .

She has been using the Trainline app to buy ticket which she always does when she travels. However unknown to me she has been buying the 16-25 discount tickets not knowing she needed a rail card.

I know stupid! but she only strated travelling by herself recently as she didnt during lockdown as she has a brother with health issues.

A inspector asked for her railcard she didnt know what he was asking for started crying and had a full blown panic attack. Despite this she received summons to go to magistrates court.

They didnt even offer a penalty just told her she could go to prison (she turned 18 the week before) or get a £1000 fine ! She is at school !! So she sat there full blown panic attack obviously suffering with mental health .

Anyway they sent a letter saying they are going for maximum penalty and asked for her reasons . She said that it was an honest mistake she did not know she needed a card she seriously thought as she was a young person she would buy the young persons discount.

Im really worried this will push her over the edge .

Does she have to go to court ? Why dont they even offer a penalty ..she has never done anything criminal shes really honest if not a bit dumb sometimes Please help

 

[Krokodil]

Other posters will be along shortly with advice but it will help them if you post copies of all correspondence - with identifying details redacted.

 

[fandroid]

The letters are often deliberately rather more frightening than the reality in order to get the traveller to cooperate. Post a photo or scan of the letter(s) in here so that our experienced advisors can help you and your daughter to respond in the way that is best for her. Block out any details that will identify her, including the case reference number that wil be on the letter.

 

[WesternLancer]

Please help Im a very worried mum of 18 year old daughter who suffers from depression and self harm and suicide attempts .

She has been using the Trainline app to buy ticket which she always does when she travels. However unknown to me she has been buying the 16-25 discount tickets not knowing she needed a rail card.

I know stupid! but she only strated travelling by herself recently as she didnt during lockdown as she has a brother with health issues.

A inspector asked for her railcard she didnt know what he was asking for started crying and had a full blown panic attack. Despite this she received summons to go to magistrates court.

They didnt even offer a penalty just told her she could go to prison (she turned 18 the week before) or get a £1000 fine ! She is at school !! So she sat there full blown panic attack obviously suffering with mental health .

Anyway they sent a letter saying they are going for maximum penalty and asked for her reasons . She said that it was an honest mistake she did not know she needed a card she seriously thought as she was a young person she would buy the young persons discount.

Im really worried this will push her over the edge .

Does she have to go to court ? Why dont they even offer a penalty ..she has never done anything criminal shes really honest if not a bit dumb sometimes Please help

Hi there and welcome - I would think there is a good chance of untangling this without it getting to court as Thameslink are one of the train companies that often seem to agree to settle matters without court action in exchange for a payment or usually known as 'out of court settlement'.

Your daughter will not have been offered a Penalty Fare on the day it happened because likely the inspector worked out she had done this deliberately and on more than one occasion (Penalty Fares are aimed at people who have made genuine mistakes) as you can probably see what your daughter did was a 'premeditated' effort to evade paying the right fare. I know that sounds bad but it's still possible to request they don't take this to court.

As your daughter is 18 she needs to deal with this herself (with your active support and help of course) unless she gives you a written authority to act on her behalf in any written responses that will need to be sent.

You / she need to start engaging with the railway, ensure she fully accepts what she did was wrong, take responsibility for it and apologise and take it form there - as I am sure you appreciate - but in practical terms now:

a) has your daughter received anything in writing from Thameslink yet? if yes*, please blank out any personal details or ref numbers and upload copies so people can best advise you at what stage this has got to. If no - you need to wait for that and then head back here for more help

b) I would suggest buying a Railcard that your daughter is entitled to use ASAP - this will allow you to show that she has learned from her mistake and taken practical steps to legally reduce her fare an not do it again. That will help in the request you will need to make to avoid court action

c) if it did go to court I think we can say that she will almost certainly not be fined £1000 and would not go to prison - if that helps to know and to help you re-assure her given what you say about the affect this has had on her

d) if she did this on more than one occasion be aware they will now be checking her Trainline account for evidence of other instances it happened and they may seek suitable payments to cover those instances too. You have to wait and see what they say in writing to your daughter. So might be worth you having a chat with her to see if you can get an idea of how many times, and for what journeys she has done this before getting caught (no need to shar that info here)

e) a settlement, if offered, might cost £100 to £200 admin charge plus the cost of the fares evaded. Potentially at the full adult Anytime Single fare for the journey concerned.

Any other questions you can think of do post them up and people will do their best to answer.

Good luck - I'm pretty sure you can get help here to get the 'least worst' outcome. And hope you can re-assure your daughter about things.

*EDIT - I see she has received a letter, so hopefully you can upload that - but the key thing now is to work on the response to the letter as usually the letters ask for 'your side of the story' - this is your opportunity to set out your apology, admission that you understand what you did was wrong, make an undertaking never to do it again, and ask if they can kindly consider settling the matter without taking it to court

Have a go at writing something along those lines. Keep it short and to the point. Usual advice is 'don't give them a sob story, they have heard it all before', but if you can upload a cooy that migth help ensure that you get the best advice for the letter that has been received.

 

[Haywain]

They didnt even offer a penalty just told her she could go to prison (she turned 18 the week before) or get a £1000 fine ! She is at school !!

A couple of points from this, for clarification: your daughter is 18 and is therefore considered an adult in the eyes of the law, regardless of being at school; the letter states the maximum penalty that can be applied - in reality it will not turn out this bad - but in my view would be more misleading to suggest a lower level of punishment that depends on unknown factors.

Does she have to go to court ? Why dont they even offer a penalty ..she has never done anything criminal shes really honest if not a bit dumb sometimes

Going to court is almost certainly avoidable. Thameslink will seek an amount to cover unpaid train fares and a contribution to their administration costs in investigating this matter. They will be getting information from Trainline to inform them of how many times this has happened and how much they will seek to recover.

 

[SargeNpton]

She has been using the Trainline app to buy ticket which she always does when she travels. However unknown to me she has been buying the 16-25 discount tickets not knowing she needed a rail card.

You can't just accidentally buy the 16-25 discount tickets on the Trainline app. You have to make the deliberate choice to add the railcard to the fares enquiry, which takes three on-screen actions before continuing with the transaction (at least on the first use of the app).

If you are going to engage with the train company about this, your daughter will need to be absolutely straight with you about what she has done - and how many times. You need to know all the facts so that you can truthfully answer any direct questions that the train company asks.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Is it possible for the OP to request her daughter to allow the viewing of her ticket purchasing history in the Trainline app, so as to ascertain the likely number of possible previous instances of rail tickets having been bought, but with inappropriate railcard discount claimed.

 

[Puffing Devil]

You can't just accidentally buy the 16-25 discount tickets on the Trainline app. You have to make the deliberate choice to add the railcard to the fares enquiry, which takes three on-screen actions before continuing with the transaction (at least on the first use of the app).

If you are going to engage with the train company about this, your daughter will need to be absolutely straight with you about what she has done - and how many times. You need to know all the facts so that you can truthfully answer any direct questions that the train company asks.

The OP never claimed that the discount was not intentionally selected. She maintains that she selected the discount not knowing a physical railcard was needed, and that is what we should take at face value.

 

[worriedmummy]

hi there thank you for all the replies . I bought the young persons railcard for her on the day as soon as she called me . I will ask her how she bought the railcard she certainly had one she wasnt trying to evade the inspector she handed over her ticket and at that point she discovered she needed the rail card . I know shes being truthful but she has been extremly stupid and misunderstood what she needed. Normally I buy tickets or give her lifts . If they offer a penalty Im more than happy to pay it . But there was no mention of that in the letter just summons to magistrates court. I dont use the trainline app myself tbh but believe me this girl doesnt know how to switch on a washing machine she can be so dumb ..even though shes outstanding in her exams ..at that age you can make idiotic mistakes I know i did but never got threatened with prison !! I wait to see their reply it all seems so heavy handed !!

 

[WesternLancer]

hi there thank you for all the replies . I bought the young persons railcard for her on the day as soon as she called me

Good work

. I will ask her how she bought the railcard she certainly had one she wasnt trying to evade the inspector she handed over her ticket and at that point she discovered she needed the rail card .

This does not make sense to me - if she had a Railcard why did she not show it? Then you say she discovered she needed it. Can you explain a bit more clearly. If she actually had a railcard then there is a different process for that. Or was she trying to claim the 16-17 Railcard discount when she was 18? There are other threads on here where young people have done this because the 16-17 railcard gives a 50% discount (so takes the fare to the child rate) but the 'Young Persons Railcard' for people aged 16-25 only gives 34% discount IIRC

I know shes being truthful but she has been extremly stupid and misunderstood what she needed.

She won't be the 1st one to make a genunie mistake - there are about 3 Railcards for people under 30 so it can be confusing.

If they offer a penalty Im more than happy to pay it

They don't offer one unless you write a reply respectfully asking for a settlement without court action. Then you can pay that and it will close the matter, if they offer one.

. But there was no mention of that in the letter just summons to magistrates court.

This is why you need to share the letter here with personal details blanked out - was this the 1st letter she received - can you check that with her - there is usually a letter asking for your side of the story (you can find examples on other threads) is it possible she ignored that hoping the problem would go away?

If that did not arrive then you need to write a letter to Thameslink 'as if it did' as a consequence of the court summons - but if she has been summonsed to court and ignored the earlier letter she has ended up making the problem harder for you to help her sort it out - but not impossible.

I dont use the trainline app myself tbh but believe me this girl doesnt know how to switch on a washing machine she can be so dumb ..

Don't worry - we've got a new washing machine and it beats me...

even though shes outstanding in her exams ..at that age you can make idiotic mistakes I know i did but never got threatened with prison !!

Maybe you just never got caught

I wait to see their reply it all seems so heavy handed !!

You will appreciate that fare evasion is a major problem with lots of people thinking it's a 'victimless crime' but the bottom line is that other passengers pay for it and they resent that and would like to see people who don't pay made to pay their fair share. Look at it from their point of view.

 

[worriedmummy]

Good work


This does not make sense to me - if she had a Railcard why did she not show it? Then you say she discovered she needed it. Can you explain a bit more clearly. If she actually had a railcard then there is a different process for that. Or was she trying to claim the 16-17 Railcard discount when she was 18? There are other threads on here where young people have done this because the 16-17 railcard gives a 50% discount (so takes the fare to the child rate) but the 'Young Persons Railcard' for people aged 16-25 only gives 34% discount IIRC


She won't be the 1st one to make a genunie mistake - there are about 3 Railcards for people under 30 so it can be confusing.


They don't offer one unless you write a reply respectfully asking for a settlement without court action. Then you can pay that and it will close the matter, if they offer one.


This is why you need to share the letter here with personal details blanked out - was this the 1st letter she received - can you check that with her - there is usually a letter asking for your side of the story (you can find examples on other threads) is it possible she ignored that hoping the problem would go away?

If that did not arrive then you need to write a letter to Thameslink 'as if it did' as a consequence of the court summons - but if she has been summonsed to court and ignored the earlier letter she has ended up making the problem harder for you to help her sort it out - but not impossible.




Don't worry - we've got a new washing machine and it beats me...



Maybe you just never got caught


You will appreciate that fare evasion is a major problem with lots of people thinking it's a 'victimless crime' but the bottom line is that other passengers pay for it and they resent that and would like to see people who don't pay made to pay their fair share. Look at it from their point of vi

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2023 ==

Hi ..sorry for being unclear . It was the letter asking for her side of the story. She has already replied saying she honestly made a mistake she was not trying to evade the fare she bought a rail ticket ticking the box 16-25 railcard thinking that it meant 17-25 year olds. It was an honest mistake she has no reason to try evade a £30 rail ticket I bought one for her as soon as she told me she needed one. TBH I feel Im partly to blame I didnt know she needed one either until the fine. I know some might find it hard to believe but Im being totally honest I never bought a rail card for myself ever ..just rail tickets . Maybe the app should request for the railcard number or something ?? Im sure I get beaten for that but for us dumb people that would make it clear oh I need a railcard bought seperately. The letter has already been posted I didnt take a cope .. Im not very good at this am I ? Is there likely to be another letter or should I write a letter asking for out of court ? or email. Thank you for your help we are seriously not trying to evade anything just made mistake .

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

We really need to see the correspondence that has been sent by the train company to be able to offer the best advice.

Govia Thameslink Railway would almost certainly send an initial letter asking for your version of events before deciding how to proceed. This letter can be quite scary looking and will threaten prosecution but most of the time they will agree to a settlement to avoid a prosecution as long as you engage with them.

If you don’t engage with their letter then the case would proceed to court. We really need to know if what you have received is their initial letter asking for your version of events or an actual court summons.

 

[worriedmummy]

Welcome to the forum!

We really need to see the correspondence that has been sent by the train company to be able to offer the best advice.

Govia Thameslink Railway would almost certainly send an initial letter asking for your version of events before deciding how to proceed. This letter can be quite scary looking and will threaten prosecution but most of the time they will agree to a settlement to avoid a prosecution as long as you engage with them.

If you don’t engage with their letter then the case would proceed to court. We really need to know if what you have received is their initial letter asking for your version of events or an actual court summons.

yes its that one and she replied she really had made a honest mistake and was sorry

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2023 ==

Is it possible for the OP to request her daughter to allow the viewing of her ticket purchasing history in the Trainline app, so as to ascertain the likely number of possible previous instances of rail tickets having been bought, but with inappropriate railcard discount claimed.

if there is any then we dont have a problem paying the adjusted amount its only a few pounds diffrence ..it was never an issue she wasnt tyrying to avade she has the money to pay shes just very dumb at some things

 

[Mcr Warrior]

if there is any then we dont have a problem paying the adjusted amount its only a few pounds diffrence ..it was never an issue she wasnt tyrying to avade she has the money to pay shes just very dumb at some things

That's not quite the point. If the train company's investigation team ascertain that your daughter has been purchasing and then using inappropriately discounted tickets for some time, there's every chance that they will ask for the full undiscounted anytime fare(s) to be paid for each and every journey so made, with no allowance made for what's already been paid. Could soon add up!

 

[worriedmummy]

If that did not arrive then you need to write a letter to Thameslink 'as if it did' as a consequence of the court summons - but if she has been summonsed to court and ignored the earlier letter she has ended up making the problem harder for you to help her sort it out - but not impossible.

It was the letter asking for her side of the story to which she replied as before that she really made an honest mistake and thought 16-25 year old railcard applied to 16-25 year olds because they are young discount . Now looking back at it it is a really stupid interpretation but thats what it is stupid not attempting to be fraudulent or skip payment the discount is a couple of pounds as the fair is only £12 . Im annoyed at her and myself for not understanding the situation

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2023 ==

That's not quite the point. If the train company's investigation team ascertain that your daughter has been purchasing and then using inappropriately discounted tickets for some time, there's every chance that they will ask for the full undiscounted anytime fare(s) to be paid for each and every journey so made, with no allowance made for what's already been paid. Could soon add up!

shes hardly used trains as during 2020-22 we were in lockdown mode here due to family medical problems and shes only started travelling end of 22 this year 23 so I know its a handful of trips

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2023 ==

thank you everyone Im so glad I found this forum

 

[MotCO]

If the OP's daughter bought via the Trainline app, and she had an account with them, then it is possible for the rail company to access her historical purchases to see how often she had bought the wrong ticket.

(As a complete aside, The Trainline, unlike the rail companies and some other sites, charge commsision on ticket sales. Use https://tickets.railforums.co.uk/ , you do not get changed commission, and this forum gets a few pennies added to its coffers!)

 

[AlterEgo]

Trainline specifically says “railcard” when adding the discount to the booking on the app and has an advert “get a digital railcard now” at the top.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to suggest that a reasonable person would understand a railcard is a thing that needs to be obtained.

Nonetheless these cases are nearly always settled out of court.

 

[Hadders]

I'm a bit confused about exactly where things are at.

You said you got the initial letter asking for your version of events. Did you reply to this? Or is that what you have got to respond to now?
If you did respond to the initial letter have you now received a court summons?

As we have said we really need to see copies of what has been sent to offer you the best advice. The drip feeding of information makes it very difficult for us to advise. We want to help you, and we have a good track record of being able to assist people in obtaining a favourable outcome.

Make sure you hide any personal information on the letters like name, address, date of birth, case numbers etc.

 

[fandroid]

Perhaps the rail company letter got sent back with the response on the back. We've seen examples of that and it could mean that there's no copy of that letter or the response

 

[worriedmummy]

I'm a bit confused about exactly where things are at.

You said you got the initial letter asking for your version of events. Did you reply to this? Or is that what you have got to respond to now?
If you did respond to the initial letter have you now received a court summons?

As we have said we really need to see copies of what has been sent to offer you the best advice. The drip feeding of information makes it very difficult for us to advise. We want to help you, and we have a good track record of being able to assist people in obtaining a favourable outcome.

Make sure you hide any personal information on the letters like name, address, date of birth, case numbers etc.

yes we replied . sorry im drip feeding I have 5 teenagers one with learning difficulties staying with me right now and its hard to concentrate on anything for long . She replied and did not keep a copy unfortunately .

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2023 ==

Im lucky enough to have a Barrister friend one of whom knows a Solicitor who specialises in fare evasion cases in London I shall be speaking to him tomorrow for professional advise . I can update here if considered useful . Thanks

 

[JBuchananGB]

We understand that your daughter made a mistake due to lack of knowledge.

Railway ticketing is governed by the criminal law. Some of the laws date back to the 19th century but still apply today.

Boarding a train without a ticket for the journey is a criminal offence. A discounted ticket without the proper railcard doesn't count as a valid ticket at all. It is the same as no ticket.

That is why the expert advisers on this forum always say that, now you have discovered your mistake, the best way forward is to apologise profusely, offer to pay for the journey made for which no ticket was held plus an amount for the company's administration of the matter, and assure the company that now you understand the law in respect of train tickets, you will be sure to have a proper ticket for every trip you make in the future.

 

[WesternLancer]

yes we replied . sorry im drip feeding I have 5 teenagers one with learning difficulties staying with me right now and its hard to concentrate on anything for long . She replied and did not keep a copy unfortunately .

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jul 2023 ==

Im lucky enough to have a Barrister friend one of whom knows a Solicitor who specialises in fare evasion cases in London I shall be speaking to him tomorrow for professional advise . I can update here if considered useful . Thanks

OK - see what the solicitor says. But basically I would suggest that you / your daughter needs to write another letter to the Railway company asking (again) for the opportunity to settle out of court. This letter needs to be short, clear and to the point.
Draft it and post it here for people to help you get the wording correct.

It could be a bit like this letter posted here on this thread:
see
Post #1 of this thread

Chiltern Rail / Transport Investigations Case

Hi, I have been contacted by TIL regarding a recent journey that I did not have a valid ticket for. Short summary of the events as follow. I initially purchased a single to Bicester from Marylebone by mistake, instead of a return. I discovered this at the station trying to commence my return...

www.railforums.co.uk

• Keep it short
• Apologize
• say it will never happen again
• ask if they would be prepared to settle the matter without the need for court action and make it clear you would very much appreciate it if they would offer to do this.

You obv have a lot on, but try to set aside 30 mins asap to write a short letter of that sort. Your daughter needs to sign it and understand the contents. Ideally she should write it.

 

[spag23]

As discussed on previous threads, cases like this would be virtually eliminated if purchasers were required to enter (and register with the seller) their Railcard number &/or Expiry Date. But unfortunately this mechanism is not in place.
Also remember to note the new card's expiry date somewhere where it will remind your daughter to renew it.
We see many cases where this is overlooked, and even instances where youngsters thought the first (annual!) card was valid till Age 25. This, of course, is NOT the case!