HS2 Phase 2 service pattern Lancaster - Carlisle

[adrock1976]

Having had a quick look at the HS2 Wikipedia page (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Speed_2, and scroll to the "Operation" section) I have seen the present table of the planned service pattern for when Phase 2 is completed (if it ever does).

The section of the route where it runs on the conventional network between Lancaster and Carlisle is the one that has thrown me slightly, and is where I have a few questions regarding the timetabling of services (not my suggestions at all - I am going by the table which has also come from the DfT/HS2. See embedded table below. I have removed the headings as when I pasted the table, they were upside down and bunched together).


When the whole of Phase 2 is open, the following service pattern is proposed:

London Euston – Birmingham Curzon Street	3	Old Oak Common, Birmingham Interchange (2tph)	400 m
London Euston – Manchester Piccadilly	3	Old Oak Common, Birmingham Interchange (1tph), Manchester Airport High Speed	400 m
London Euston – Macclesfield	1	Old Oak Common, Stafford, Stoke-on-Trent	200 m
London Euston – Liverpool Lime Street	1	Old Oak Common, Crewe, Runcorn	200 m
London Euston – Liverpool Lime Street and Lancaster	1	Old Oak Common, Crewe... The two portions will divide/attach at Crewe.	2 × 200 m
Liverpool portion: Runcorn	Lancaster portion: Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western, Preston
London Euston – Edinburgh Waverleyand Glasgow Central	2	Old Oak Common, Birmingham Interchange (1tph), Preston, Carlisle... The two portions will divide/attach at Carlisle.	2 × 200 m
Edinburgh portion: Edinburgh Haymarket	Glasgow portion: non-stop
Birmingham Curzon Street – Manchester Piccadilly	2	Manchester Airport High Speed	200 m
Birmingham Curzon Street – Edinburgh Waverley/Glasgow Central	1	Wigan North Western, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme Lake District (1tp2h),[a] Penrith(1tp2h),[a] Carlisle... 1tp2h will continue to/from Edinburgh Waverley, calling at Haymarket. 1tp2h will continue to/from Glasgow Central, calling at Lockerbie and Motherwell.	200 m
Birmingham Curzon Street – Leeds	2	East Midlands Parkway	200 m
Birmingham Curzon Street – Newcastle	1	East Midlands Parkway, York, Darlington, Durham	200 m

As can be seen above, there will be the London - Glasgow/Edinburgh coupling/uncoupling at Carlisle on a 30 minute frequency. Furthermore, there will be a Birmingham - Carlisle every 60 minutes, continuing on to Glasgow/Edinburgh every 2 hours (similar to the New Street - Glasgow/Edinburgh XC/West Coast today).

However, being as the Lancaster - Carlisle section presently has 1 London - Glasgow (via Nuneaton), 1 [London]-Birmingham - Glasgow/Edinburgh, and 1 Manchester - Glasgow/Edinburgh every hour and with the trains timetabled quite close together so as to give freight trains extra time in getting over Shap Fell,this is where I have been thrown slightly here and have some questions.

1) Will the present Manchester - Glasgow/Edinburgh be scrapped? This would mean that Lancaster would no longer have direct trains to/from Manchester (which it has always had) unless the Windermere shuttle or Barrow in Furness trains was extended to cover.

2) The calling pattern of the Birmingham - Glasgow/Edinburgh runs non stop Birmingham - Wigan, and the London - Glasgow/Edinburgh calls at Preston and Carlisle after Old Oak Common and Birmingham Interchange. This would mean that points north of Lancaster would no longer have direct trains calling at Crewe, which it has always had. What is going to cover that section? (Wolverhampton - Preston could be covered by my previous suggestion in one of the XC threads by switching one of the Manchester to Blackpool instead).

3) Even if the present day New Street - Glasgow/Edinburgh via Preston section was to remain as a traditional InterCity service, and the present day Manchester - Glasgow/Edinburgh also remained, this would mean that there would be 5tph in total between Lancaster - Carlisle. Would this section be able to cope with that bearing in mind there are slower moving freight trains climbing uphill in both directions?

4) Whenever there are strong gusts of wind, the Lancaster - Carlisle section is reduced to 50mph maximum running. While some trains be curtailed at Preston/Lancaster so as give extra time for the reduced speed?

Note these are questions I have pertinent to the Lancaster - Carlisle section post Phase 2 of HS2. I do not intend this to turn into "Suggestions for Crosscountry", Sussex Scot, loco hauled 442s, every market town either side of the Pennines having direct trains to Manchester and the airport, etc.

 

[The Planner]

Ignore it all, it will change at least a dozen times before it opens.

 

[Agent_Squash]

It seems a bit pie in the sky in all honesty. Wouldn't want to live in Kendal (Oxenholme) under this timetable losing all the London fasts...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Ignore it all, it will change at least a dozen times before it opens.

In particular, the draft timetable presumed the building of the Golborne Link, which is now shelved or worse.
If there was a blueprint for HS2/WCML services, it has gone out of the window with all the changes/cutbacks to HS2 plans.
I think we will end up with a timetable with 200m HS2 trains merged in with classic trains north of Crewe, and not run as a separate service.

 

[doiheart]

The HS2 website used to have a widget to find your journey time to London under the proposed timetable.

Oxenholme managed to have a shorter time than Lancaster, presumably because they figured Lancaster passengers would prefer to stay on the same train all the way while Kendalians would have to change at Preston, but get a non stop service when they did.

I doubt this took into account any time to actually make the change though and the widget has now been removed, probably because the draft timetable was fantasy as other posters have pointed out

 

[HamworthyGoods]

It seems a bit pie in the sky in all honesty. Wouldn't want to live in Kendal (Oxenholme) under this timetable losing all the London fasts...

Indeed, it’s difficult to take any proposal removes direct trains from the Capital to England’s Largest Natural Park (The Lake District) sensibly and if it does you would rightly assume open access would become very interested in it.

 

[30907]

Indeed, it’s difficult to take any proposal removes direct trains from the Capital to England’s Largest Natural Park (The Lake District) sensibly and if it does you would rightly assume open access would become very interested in it.

Except that there will still be services from Euston via Rugby.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Except that there will still be services from Euston via Rugby.

Will there?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Will there?

One of the proposals had a Euston-Manchester-Scotland, but there are obvious issues with that. I suspect there won't be, post Phase 2B, any Euston-Scotland services, they'll be split back up to a couple of Euston-Brum fasts an hour (Watford, MKC, Rugby, Cov, Intl, New St) and a separate HS2 Birmingham-Scotland service.

To be honest, if going TO the Lakes the Windermere branch is of more interest - Oxenholme is just somewhere people drive to to catch trains who live in the area plus a junction station. Thus if you had Windermere hourly from Preston or Lancaster you'd probably not need the Oxenholme stop - you'd just change where you, er, change.

 

[Carlisle]

To be honest, if going TO the Lakes the Windermere branch is of more interest -

Whilst it’s not breathtakingly scenic isn’t it the only branch in the National Park? Changing for a bus at Penrith is often quicker for the northern part.

 

[Manutd1999]

Without the Golbourne link, the HS2 service pattern to Scotland is very uncertain. It could be that there is only 1ph HS2 service (splitting at Carlisle), combined with 1ph "classic" to Euston via Birmingham.