Irregularity report?

[rail-train]

I was on Transpennine from York to Leeds and had an open return ticket. I took this journey once/twice (I don't remember really) before but they never checked my ticket on board. So I consider it valid. But when a conductor scanned it this time it came up that I scanned it at the exit of the Leeds station 3 times before (Conductors/security let me out no problem). The conductor didn't let me buy a ticket and despite the fact the ticket was never scanned on board, made an irregularity report. I am still not sure what it means. I think technically I'm in the right even if I know I should've bought a new ticket. I could say I entered the Leeds station but not got on any train (e.g. to buy something from a shop). Another thing is I froze from fright and gave him wrong details (past address, misspelled/changed name and DOB). I was never in this situation. Was it wrong? Will they investigate/prosecute me? Will they find me when I don't live there? Is it possible to escape?
Please don't judge me, I have to travel often and thought I could've saved money.

 

[Gloster]

A return ticket is only valid for one journey from A to B and then to return to A: in this case it permitted you to travel from York to Leeds and then back to York. If you made a second journey from York to Leeds you should have bought a new ticket. If you used the same ticket to make the journey several times you are breach of the regulations. It does not matter whether or where your ticket was checked.

By giving the wrong name and address you have also committed an offence. Did you correct the wrong details you gave or has the railway only got the incorrect details?

Have I got the details correct? What sort of ticket did you buy (paper, etc.) and who did you buy it from?

Your last sentence suggests that, at the very least, you knew you were chancing it.

I am not an expert, but experts will be along in due course.

 

[rail-train]

Yes, but the only evidence of me making several journeys is those scans at the Leeds station exit. How can they prove that I used the ticket in reality? If a security guard checked my ticket several times and allowed me to exit, then what’s my fault?
I obviously agree with you, just thinking of my defense.
Online ticket

 

[SuspectUsual]

So your defence is going to be that the reason the ticket you were using had been scanned on the exit barriers at Leeds on three previous occasions is because you'd gone into the station to use a shop?

You must realise how utterly implausible that sounds?

And furthermore, if that were the case, you'd have had to get through the barriers onto the platform - how would you have done that?

 

[Starmill]

Yes, but the only evidence of me making several journeys is those scans at the Leeds station exit. How can they prove that I used the ticket in reality? If a security guard checked my ticket several times and allowed me to exit, then what’s my fault?
I obviously agree with you, just thinking of my defense.
Online ticket

Unfortunately I don't think people are going to advise you on the basis of submitting something you know not to be true at Court, should it come down to it. We don't know what the company will do regarding your inaccurate details, and there's very little that can be done about it now. For the moment you likely should do nothing at all unless you have received some correspondence.

It would be better to submit mitigation at Court than to suggest you're "technically in the right" - this would be very poorly received and would risk making any sentence harsher. If you're happy to accept that and submit a guilty plea if you're charged, people will be able advise you on mitigation.

In the future I would advise that under no circumstances should you try to use a single ticket more than once, or more than once in each direction for a return.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Welcome to the forum. Inclined to concur with both @Gloster's and subsequent posters' analyses. If the ticket you held had essentially been used for travel before, it's no longer valid. Your explanation regarding access to the platform at Leeds is implausible. If you do manage to avoid being taken to court, you can perhaps expect to be hit with a request to pay the £18.60 fare avoided, plus a three figure sum towards TPE's investigation and admin costs.

However, giving incorrect / false personal details doesn't do you any favours and makes you look like a fare dodger. Your case could easily end up in court and you being found guilty in your absence as you'll not necessarily know of the hearing.

Assume that you can retrieve any post if sent by TPE to the wrong address that you gave. In any event, TPE may still be able to track you down from your online account which presumably does have your correct name and address associated with it, so don't assume you've gotten away with paying up.

 

[rail-train]

Thank you. I understand I've should've acted differently, I am only asking for advice what to do next. What is the legal definition of a used ticket? Can I pay a fine 50/100 pounds? Is it 100% that they will investigate it? I'm hoping with all their issues with nationalisation, it gets lost somewhere. If so, When I eventually get that letter (I'll go to that old address), should I just pay, or try telling my side of the story and asking to let it go, saying its my first time etc.?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jun 2023 ==

Unfortunately I don't think people are going to advise you on the basis of submitting something you know not to be true at Court, should it come down to it. We don't know what the company will do regarding your inaccurate details, and there's very little that can be done about it now. For the moment you likely should do nothing at all unless you have received some correspondence.

It would be better to submit mitigation at Court than to suggest you're "technically in the right" - this would be very poorly received and would risk making any sentence harsher. If you're happy to accept that and submit a guilty plea if you're charged, people will be able advise you on mitigation.

In the future I would advise that under no circumstances should you try to use a single ticket more than once, or more than once in each direction for a return.

Sorry didn't quote you. My questions above please

 

[island]

What is the legal definition of a used ticket?

There is no "legal definition". A ticket is used when it has been used. A return ticket is valid for one journey, not infinite journeys.

Can I pay a fine 50/100 pounds?

That is not your choice to make.

Is it 100% that they will investigate it?

No, but it's 80s or 90s.

I'm hoping with all their issues with nationalisation, it gets lost somewhere.

I wouldn't bet on it.

If so, When I eventually get that letter (I'll go to that old address), should I just pay, or try telling my side of the story and asking to let it go,

I would advise being honest, and

saying its my first time etc.?

would not be honest, as you've admitted already to 3 violations.

 

[Starmill]

Thank you. I understand I've should've acted differently, I am only asking for advice what to do next. What is the legal definition of a used ticket? Can I pay a fine 50/100 pounds? Is it 100% that they will investigate it? I'm hoping with all their issues with nationalisation, it gets lost somewhere. If so, When I eventually get that letter (I'll go to that old address), should I just pay, or try telling my side of the story and asking to let it go, saying its my first time etc.?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jun 2023 ==


Sorry didn't quote you. My questions above please

With the best will in the world, you did make it rather obvious to them that you were trying to use the same ticket more than once. As such, it would be very surprising if they didn't write to the address you supplied at all. You'll be in no position to negotiate, should you receive a letter threatening to have you prosecuted for trying to avoid paying, I fear. You will likely need to accept whatever sum in a settlement they are willing to accept.

 

[rail-train]

Right, but when has it been used? My understanding is that scanning it at the barrier doesn't mean it is used. I read you can 50 in the first 21 days. No, it's my first time getting an offence, which they have a record of. I didn't admit to anything else.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jun 2023 ==

There is no "legal definition". A ticket is used when it has been used. A return ticket is valid for one journey, not infinite journeys.

That is not your choice to make.

No, but it's 80s or 90s.

I wouldn't bet on it.

I would advise being honest, and

would not be honest, as you've admitted already to 3 violations.

 

[SuspectUsual]

I read you can 50 in the first 21 days

Can you clarify what you mean by this?

 

[Starmill]

Right, but when has it been used?

When you travelled with it.

My understanding is that scanning it at the barrier doesn't mean it is used.

Correct, but this isn't relevant here as you did use it.

I read you can 50 in the first 21 days.

This sounds like a Penalty Fare. You've not been charged one of these, so this isn't relevant.

 

[rail-train]

When you travelled with it.

Correct, but this isn't relevant here as you did use it.

This sounds like a Penalty Fare. You've not been charged one of these, so this isn't relevant.

But there's no evidence of me traveling before. And what's the difference to penalty fare? Isn't it when you don't have a ticket?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jun 2023 ==

Can you clarify what you mean by this?

Revenue Protection Policy | TransPennine Express

Learn about our Revenue Protection Policy & how we're protecting our fare-paying customers. Download the full policy & pay unpaid fare notices, here.

www.tpexpress.co.uk

 

[island]

Right, but when has it been used?

When you used it. I'm not going to play word games here, you're very clearly in the wrong and you need to accept that.

My understanding is that scanning it at the barrier doesn't mean it is used.

No, but that doesn't mean you haven't used it.

I read you can 50 in the first 21 days.

That is an option offered at the train company's discretion for minor ticket violations. They've chosen not to offer it to you here. You don't have a right to choose it.

 

[SuspectUsual]

But there's no evidence of me traveling before

There is - there's clear evidence of you attempting to leave Leeds station three times using the same ticket. They won't buy a cock and bull story about going shopping at the station

And what's the difference to penalty fare? Isn't it when you don't have a ticket?

A penalty fare is intended for genuine mistakes, not what the railway will see as multiple deliberate fare evasion

 

[Starmill]

But there's no evidence of me traveling before.

There is evidence in that you have used the ticket to exit the ticket gates. You're correct that this isn't proof, but it's very persuasive in this case, because you can't account for using the ticket to exit the ticket gates for another reason than travelling with the ticket.

And what's the difference to penalty fare? Isn't it when you don't have a ticket?

A Penalty Fare isn't relevant here because you can't choose one. If you're offered one you can accept it and pay it, but you weren't so you can't.

 

[alholmes]

Right, but when has it been used? My understanding is that scanning it at the barrier doesn't mean it is used. I read you can 50 in the first 21 days. No, it's my first time getting an offence, which they have a record of. I didn't admit to anything else.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jun 2023 ==

It’s very simple. The Ticket has been used if you’ve made a journey with it. Whether or not it’s been scanned on the train or at a barrier is irrelevant. If you’ve made the journey with that ticket, it’s been used and shouldn’t be used again.

 

[rail-train]

There is - there's clear evidence of you attempting to leave Leeds station three times using the same ticket. They won't buy a cock and bull story about going shopping at the station



A penalty fare is intended for genuine mistakes, not what the railway will see as multiple deliberate fare evasion

And I had to use it one more time after this incident to leave this station again lol

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jun 2023 ==

With the best will in the world, you did make it rather obvious to them that you were trying to use the same ticket more than once. As such, it would be very surprising if they didn't write to the address you supplied at all. You'll be in no position to negotiate, should you receive a letter threatening to have you prosecuted for trying to avoid paying, I fear. You will likely need to accept whatever sum in a settlement they are willing to accept.

Ok, I guess I have to pay up. But hypothetically if I don't pay and I don't live in that city, will the court search for me?

 

[island]

And I had to use it one more time after this incident to leave this station again lol

You didn't "have to use it one more time", you could have purchased and used a valid ticket.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jun 2023 ==


Ok, I guess I have to pay up. But hypothetically if I don't pay and I don't live in that city, will the court search for me?

Yes, though depending on how wrong the details you have given were, they may or may not find you.

 

[SuspectUsual]

But hypothetically if I don't pay and I don't live in that city, will the court search for me?

Yes, though depending on how wrong the details you have given were, they may or may not find you

If you used an online retailer to buy your ticket, its likely they already know who you really are.

What is likely to happen:

They will almost certainly write to you, asking for your version of events.

If you ignore it, they will almost certainly move to a prosecution

If you engage with them and express remorse (see other threads for the stuff to include) they *may* offer you an out of court settlement. If you pay it, that's the end of it. (But if you were to come to their attention a second time, it would count against you)

If you don't engage with them, it is likely to mean a prosecution

 

[rail-train]

If you used an online retailer to buy your ticket, its likely they already know who you really are.

What is likely to happen:

They will almost certainly write to you, asking for your version of events.

If you ignore it, they will almost certainly move to a prosecution

If you engage with them and express remorse (see other threads for the stuff to include) they *may* offer you an out of court settlement. If you pay it, that's the end of it. (But if you were to come to their attention a second time, it would count against you)

If you don't engage with them, it is likely to mean a prosecution

Thanks! So do you all think it's better to ask for forgiveness than argue my point?

 

[AndroidBango]

Thanks! So do you all think it's better to ask for forgiveness than argue my point?

You don't have a point to argue.

 

[SuspectUsual]

You don't have a point to argue.

This. 1000%

 

[Starmill]

Thanks! So do you all think it's better to ask for forgiveness than argue my point?

Yes, because you don't have any arguments to make.

 

[rail-train]

You don't have a point to argue.

Maybe I am struggling to explain. My point is that there's no evidence that the ticket was used. The fact that it was scanned can mean that there was a IT error, me going to the shop (which I can give an invoice to). Or some other reason like meeting a friend from the station who is visiting me. I'm not British, I understand tickets differently I guess. However, you think implausible, these reasons are valid. What further should question them is why I was freely let go by security several times if the ticket was used allegedly.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Maybe I am struggling to explain. My point is that there's no evidence that the ticket was used. The fact that it was scanned can mean that there was a IT error, me going to the shop (which I can give an invoice to). Or some other reason like meeting a friend from the station who is visiting me. I'm not British, I understand tickets differently I guess. However, you think implausible, these reasons are valid. What further should question them is why I was freely let go by security several times if the ticket was used allegedly.

They will argue that you leaving the station is proof.

I thought you'd come to accept what you did was wrong, but maybe I was wrong.

If you want people to help you concoct far-fetched tales to try and avoid the consequences of your actions, you need to go and do that somewhere else.

If you want knowledgeable people to help you to try and minimise the consequences of what you've done, you're in the right place, but you need to stop the pretence and cooperate

 

[island]

We're going round in circles now, I'm not going to explain again why your points are invalid and I'd be surprised if the other posters will. We do this in our spare time and I for one am not willing to waste any more of mine on someone who is deliberately refusing to get the point.

 

[AndroidBango]

Maybe I am struggling to explain. My point is that there's no evidence that the ticket was used. The fact that it was scanned can mean that there was a IT error, me going to the shop (which I can give an invoice to). Or some other reason like meeting a friend from the station who is visiting me. I'm not British, I understand tickets differently I guess. However, you think implausible, these reasons are valid. What further should question them is why I was freely let go by security several times if the ticket was used allegedly.

Ticket scan times compared to train arrival times will help.

 

[AlterEgo]

Maybe I am struggling to explain. My point is that there's no evidence that the ticket was used. The fact that it was scanned can mean that there was a IT error, me going to the shop (which I can give an invoice to). Or some other reason like meeting a friend from the station who is visiting me. I'm not British, I understand tickets differently I guess. However, you think implausible, these reasons are valid. What further should question them is why I was freely let go by security several times if the ticket was used allegedly.

You’re not struggling to explain. You already know that you should have acted differently by not reusing a ticket for multiple journeys. The advice of the forum is always to never tell lies to the train company or the court, and you are best advised to cease road testing your worthless, fictional excuses on the people here who are volunteering their time and experience to help.

 

[rail-train]

They will argue that you leaving the station is proof.

I thought you'd come to accept what you did was wrong, but maybe I was wrong.

If you want people to help you concoct far-fetched tales to try and avoid the consequences of your actions, you need to go and do that somewhere else.

If you want knowledgeable people to help you to try and minimise the consequences of what you've done, you're in the right place, but you need to stop the pretence and cooperate

I'm panicking a bit and looking at all options to minimise the consequences as you say. I appreciate all information