fare evasion

[roodles123]

Hi,

i very stupidly yeaterday got on the train and bought a ticket when i got off and said i got on at a closer station than i actually did they sold me the ticket then took me to one side - the revenue protection officer said i couldnt have got on there as there were ticket blocks in place.
As soon as he said this i admitted which station i had got on at and he took my name and address in his little notebook and asked me a couple of questions
(do you know you have commited an offence and why did you do it.)

That was all and he retained my ticket. i did not get a receipt for the retention of my ticket and did not sign anything and no other paperwork was filled in.
(there was a massive ticket block at the station with about 10 recevnue inspectors)

i was told i would get a letter within the next four weeks

i am extremely worried about getting a criminal record for breach of the railway act 1889 as this will effect my job etc. just want some advice on what is likely to happen?

i am not condoning my actions in any way and would just like some answers/advice - i know i was stupid so i would really appreciate some advice rather than the - you deserrve what you get speech!

thanks

 

[ralphchadkirk]

It's a civil action, so wait until any papers arrive in the post

I doubt it, as the OP has been caught out here. I'm not entirely sure, but the 1889 could be used.

 

[First class]

You do deserve a criminal record IMO, just because of the sheer stupidity for what I guess under £10! It is classed as fraud by misrepresentation, (and covered by RoRA 1889 as you know).

Fourtunately, most (all) TOCs will write to you and ask you to pay an "administrative penalty and sign a reprimand", assuming it is your first offence. The reprimand just confirms that you admit liability, and that you aknowledge you won't get a second chance. The "penalty" ranges from £50 to £100. Wait for them to contact you with details and don't offer less than what they want. Can you put a price on a criminal record? Barred from many countries through the world... unable to work in some financial industries... would an employer let you handle cash?

This won't be a civil action... an MG11 will have been completed because it sounds like an interview has taken place. Offering a short fare is a very, very, very easy 5(3a). Clearly intent to avoid paying the correct fare!

If it is a second offence, pretty much stuffed really. Best just to admit the offence and see what the court decides. You don't need to attend.

You will get a copy of your ticket, MG11 (statement), and any witness statements from the Inspector/Police etc in your pre-court bundle, if you contest liability.

However, they have the right to retain your ticket, (without a receipt) as you have effectively completed that journey anyway and the ticket holds no further validity. Just a human version of an automatic ticket gate! If you were mid-way through your journey then a receipt would have been issued.

 

[roodles123]

thankyou for the replies.

just to clarify it was my first offence.

also what is an MG11 form? - he did not fill any forms in - the only details that were taken were in a little notebook and i did not sign anything get read my rights or get the information read back to me before i left. there were no police present only the RPO and the 'interview' was just done at the side of the barrier.

thanks

 

[First class]

thankyou for the replies.

just to clarify it was my first offence.

also what is an MG11 form? - he did not fill any forms in - the only details that were taken were in a little notebook and i did not sign anything get read my rights or get the information read back to me before i left. there were no police present only the RPO and the 'interview' was just done at the side of the barrier.

thanks

Hmm, the "notebook" is an interview and he will write that up on an Official Statement form (like the police use). That is called an MG11. What TOC are we dealing with here? My "knowledge" is with Southern and Merseyrail, but will try and help with others.

You will probably get a letter asking you to explain the events, followed by a request for an "administrative penalty". Be careful what you write if you want to dispute liability. Also avoid writing a sob story.

You can PM me if you want some advice on the procedures the Train Operators have to follow with regards to prosecutions and how best to proceed.

 

[rail-britain]

I doubt it, as the OP has been caught out here

The matter is processed as a complaint from the TOC and not the Crown Office, it is therefore dealt with in exactly the same way as a civil matter

Different in Scotland, the TOC have to pass the matter over to BTP, who then pass if to the Fiscal
That is the only way it can be processed as a criminal offence

 

[First class]

The matter is processed as a complaint from the TOC and not the Crown Office, it is therefore dealt with in exactly the same way as a civil matter

Different in Scotland, the TOC have to pass the matter over to BTP, who then pass if to the Fiscal
That is the only way it can be processed as a criminal offence

It is a private prosecution.

Some operators use their in-house Private Prosecutions Unit in order to
deal with these issues, on the basis that the CPS does not have
first-hand experience of working on the railway, and that taking it
in-house avoids unnecessary delays, and gives the operator greater
control and a better chance of success.

In terms of their success rate, private prosecutions appear on the
whole to be highly effective in using the legal system to tackle fare
evasion. ==

My TOC, certainly has an in-house private prosecutions team. We also pass the details to a government agency in Cardiff that tracks the case on PNC from start to finish, which is how the criminal record is obtained on conviction of a Section 5 offence.

 

[roodles123]

thanks first class.

it was in manchester and there was a massive block on so not sure if it was network rail or northern rail.

i cannot PM because i have only just joined and it says i have to have at least 5 posts before that can be activated.

when you say be careful what you write - im not sure how i can make it any worse as i admitted that i got on at a different station to that i bought a ticket for.

if i pay administrative penalty does this mean they wont take it to court or is that on top of them possibly taking it to court? i dont care about paying any fines just as long as it dosent go to court and i get a CR.

does it make any difference that i didnt get asked to sign anything?

 

[First class]

thanks first class.

it was in manchester and there was a massive block on so not sure if it was network rail or northern rail.

i cannot PM because i have only just joined and it says i have to have at least 5 posts before that can be activated.

when you say be careful what you write - im not sure how i can make it any worse as i admitted that i got on at a different station to that i bought a ticket for.

if i pay administrative penalty does this mean they wont take it to court or is that on top of them possibly taking it to court? i dont care about paying any fines just as long as it dosent go to court and i get a CR.

does it make any difference that i didnt get asked to sign anything?

When you pay the "admin penalty" and sign the "reprimand" you basically give them money to make the case dissapear. It won't show up anywhere, and the court won't get involved.

If you do it a second time, the reprimand may be used as evidence against you to show you knew full well the consequences.

When writing your version of events, if you are offered that opportunity, what you want to essentially say is what you said to the Inspector. Don't add anything or try to justify your actions. Stick to the bare facts.

As for not signing anything, it doesn't make any difference. Some people choose not to sign anything even if asked. It just helps (sometimes) to prove that an accurate account of what you said has been recorded correctly and you agree to what is written, (but not your opinion on the incident). You should probably sign any future correspondence though, because it may appear as a retaliatory move on your part not to. If what you write is true and accurate, then there isn't a problem signing. If you knowingly sign a false statement of fact then depending on how the TOC has worded the letter could be another criminal offence, (I think a breach of the Criminal Justice Act).

 

[roodles123]

thankyou for clarifying that.

im just so worried because i have seen other threads where people have replied to the train companies as i will be asked to do and they have still decided to carry on with legal proceedings for cases on the same level as mine.

 

[First class]

thankyou for clarifying that.

im just so worried because i have seen other threads where people have replied to the train companies as i will be asked to do and they have still decided to carry on with legal proceedings for cases on the same level as mine.

I wouldn't worry too much.

People sometimes don't realise that they are just a number in a (very large) database. Smaller TOCs still have at least 3000-5000 names, with larger ones having upwards of 20000 "offenders".

Taking that many to court can overpower their resources and manpower so someone sending a Postal Order for whatever amount they request can reduce costs and time for both parties.

HOWEVER - it is important to remember that a TOC can freely choose whether they settle out of court or not. That is why I urge you (and any similar people) not to get too defensive with the TOC, because they will bend you right over and really go deep if they feel it necessary.

FYI it will probably be Northern Rail or an agent acting on behalf of them, but still classed as an "officer or servant of the railway with all rights and privileges bestowed upon them for the purposes of the Railway Byelaws, Transport Act 2000 and Regulation of Railways Act 1889". (Network Rail does not deal with passenger revenue).

One more thing, you may not hear from them for a while. If you don't hear from them within 2 months, I would ring up their prosecutions department and check they have your correct details, as you could be convicted in your absence if they have sent you letters or even eventually a summons (that may go missing in the post etc) and then you have to start making Statutory Declarations that you were unaware etc... but don't worry too much about this. Doesn't happen very frequently.

 

[roodles123]

thanks for the advice very much appreciated.

I guess I will just have to wait and see when the letter comes through.

thanks again.

 

[MikeWh]

i cannot PM because i have only just joined and it says i have to have at least 5 posts before that can be activated.

Which you now have, so you can PM. Good luck sorting the issue out and I hope you've learnt a valuable life lesson. And welcome to the forum.

 

[RPI]

It's a civil action, so wait until any papers arrive in the post

TOCs in England and Wales rarely, if ever use county courts, 99% of the time it will be a private prosecution that ens up as a criminal conviction.

 

[superfluous]

Hello, I have joined these forums following a Google search about the situation the OP has described. I had a very similar situation on 01 April at Manchester Piccadilly.

In my case, I boarded the train at one station prior to the one I intended to return to later that same day. I approached the ticket collector and asked for a return to this particular station as opposed to a return from the station I had traveled from - in retrospect, this was obviously erroneous on my part and I too was taken aside and told the same as OP. I offered to pay the correct fare (£1.55 as opposed to £1.05) but obviously the member of staff took my details.

I have been very, very worried about this as I later learnt it was possible to receive a criminal conviction for my actions. This is the first time I have ever been caught up in any legal action at all, let alone trouble with Northern Rail.

I was preoccupied thinking about my return journey considering my travel circumstances for this day which lead to my mistake in the purchase of my tickets. I should have asked for a return from the station I got on at and jumped off one early. I do realize I am in the wrong and I hope that the process which follows is the cautionary admin fee and reprimand which has been mentioned and nothing more. Further to this, I have been in touch with Northern Rail Debt & Prosecution Services to explain my situation yet they have informed me that I will just have to wait for the letter to explain myself.

First class, it has been very insightful reading your replies on this particular issue. As this is my first instance of being in trouble with Northern Rail, would you say the same process of action is likely to follow considering my situation?

I also have a more general inquiry. On the National Rail website, it says that the stations I used for travel this particular day are not subject to penalty fares. I'm just curious to what this means and if it has any matter considering my situation?

 

[cuccir]

I also have a more general inquiry. On the National Rail website, it says that the stations I used for travel this particular day are not subject to penalty fares. I'm just curious to what this means and if it has any matter considering my situation?

Penalty fares are a slightly different thing. In areas where these operate, if you do not have a ticket or a permit to travel, and have passed an opportunity to buy one, you automatically pay a fare of £20 or twice the full single fare from the station where the passenger got on the train to the next station at which the train stops, whichever is the greater. This scheme doesn't affect whether or not passengers are prosecuted for attempting to avoid payment.

 

[island]

This scheme doesn't affect whether or not passengers are prosecuted for attempting to avoid payment.

Well, except for that fact that you can't both be PFed and prosecuted for the same thing!

 

[First class]

Well, except for that fact that you can't both be PFed and prosecuted for the same thing!

Sometimes you can:

1) Giving false details. The PF will stand if they eventually get correct details, but could also convict for 5(3c) (providing false details) or a byelaw.

2) Failing to pay a Penalty Fare after 21 days.

 

[Mojo]

Sometimes you can:

1) Giving false details. The PF will stand if they eventually get correct details, but could also convict for 5(3c) (providing false details) or a byelaw.

2) Failing to pay a Penalty Fare after 21 days.

This is not the same thing.

If you are issued a PF, and it is issued correctly, and you pay it, then you will not be prosecuted. This (exclusion of double liability) is in the Penalty Fares Regulations.

The amount of a penalty fare us a civil debt. In the event of non payment they can either chase payment as a civil debt or drop the penalty fare and prosecute in the criminal courts (or do nothing I suppose).

 

[First class]

This is not the same thing.

If you are issued a PF, and it is issued correctly, and you pay it, then you will not be prosecuted.

Failing to pay a PF will result in prosecution.

 

[ACE1888]

personally if someone has made a genuine mistake, I'm sure the Revenue protection team would surely apply some common sense, although I do appreciate that are certainly some right old 'jobsworths' out there! You live and learn in life....

 

[superfluous]

personally if someone has made a genuine mistake, I'm sure the Revenue protection team would surely apply some common sense, although I do appreciate that are certainly some right old 'jobsworths' out there! You live and learn in life....

it definitely was a silly mistake I made. I should not have presumed it OK to ask for a return to the station I intended to go back to instead of the one I came from I realize that I am in the wrong under the rail regulations and thats why I'm getting quite worried about all this.

 

[Mojo]

Failing to pay a PF will result in prosecution.

And..? What's that got to do with what either I or island have said? At what point has that been doubted?

You seem to be confusing the situation by providing facts that have either not been doubted or are irrelevant to the situation.

To clarify, in case anyone is getting confused: a penalty fare is a civil debt and if the issuer of a PF wants it paid then they take action in the civil courts. Alternative (and more likely) action would be to drop the PF and go for either a criminal proscution for a byelaw or RRA offence. A PF cannot be charged IN ADDITION to an offence under 5(3)(a) or (b) or a section 18 or 19 byelaw.

 

[Paul Kelly]

@superfluous, All I know about these sorts of cases is from reading these forums really, but I would say that it is not simply a case of being in "the wrong under the rail regulations". That would apply to a Penalty Fare area, where the very action of getting on the train without a valid ticket can in most circumstances leave you liable to the penalty fare - but it's not a fine, simply an inflated version of the normal fare, and paying it is not an admission of any criminal intent on your part. But as this is not a penalty fare area, the key thing here is whether the inspector can prove you had some intent to avoid paying the correct fare - and if so then they can prosecute you.

When you asked for a return *to* the station you wanted to go back to, did the inspector then ask you where you got on the train at? What did you say then? If you said something like "I got on at station X this morning, but I want to get a return ticket to go back to station Y this evening", I don't see how that can really incriminate you - you haven't told any lies. If however you got flustered and said erroneously that you got on the train at station Y, then that could be interpreted as intent to avoid paying the correct fare, which is all they need to prosecute you.

 

[Mojo]

Further to my message above I'll need to check, but I think that the only penalty that can be applied to those in a compulsory ticket area is a PF (the Byelaws state that the CTA Byelaw is not counted like the rest) and thus a civil action may be required for payment of a PF in this case.

If there is a law about this then this of course doesn't apply, I did a small bit of digging but didn't see anything.

 

[superfluous]

Hi Indigo2, from what I remember the inspector did not ask me where I had got on the train. I'm not someone who would intentionally try and deceive a payment of rail fare so this question would certainly have caused an honest reaction.

I asked for my return ticket, produced my student railcard and was asked if I had a voucher to which I answered 'No.' I was then taken aside and told that I couldn't have possibly got on at said station because of the ticket block/voucher system there. I told the revenue ticket officer that I thought it OK to ask for a return to this particular station since it was my genuine intention to travel back there and not the station I had joined the line. Obviously, I should have just purchased a return from the other station instead and I admit I made a mistake in my assumption of what I should have bought. This is quite an unusual travel plan and one I was not accustomed to.

Following on from what First class said though, I am very wary of pursuing any kind of line which has me dispute liability as I would certainly prefer this matter be settled with no court proceedings whatsoever.

I realize I acted in error and would be happy to have it end in a caution or reprimand. Frankly, I'm pretty terrified it might be taken to court as a clean criminal record is pretty much a must for the career I'm hoping to go into

 

[Paul Kelly]

Sounds to me then that the inspector was a bit over-zealous, jumped to conclusions and didn't bother to fully establish intent since (in his eyes) he was so certain about "what you were up to". But I'm sure you'd need a good solicitor to argue that on your behalf - would be a lot of stress I'm sure. Anyway sounds like you've had a good read through the other advice offered on here so you have a general idea of the procedure for offering to settle out of court etc. - good luck.

 

[Mojo]

Are you saying you, at Manchester, asked to buy a ticket for a longer journey than you had just taken? Can you name the stations here as I'm struggling to picture what happened?

I would often travel from Filton to Temple Meads, but back to Parkway. To avoid hassle I'd ask for a return from Parkway, which is further away (but on the same line) and more expensive. This is permitted (provided no break of journey conditions apply, which they don't in this case.)

 

[superfluous]

Are you saying you, at Manchester, asked to buy a ticket for a longer journey than you had just taken? Can you name the stations here as I'm struggling to picture what happened?

I would often travel from Filton to Temple Meads, but back to Parkway. To avoid hassle I'd ask for a return from Parkway, which is further away (but on the same line) and more expensive. This is permitted (provided no break of journey conditions apply, which they don't in this case.)

Hi Mojo, sorry if I've been unclear. I boarded the train at Station X, this train went through Station Y before ending up at Piccadilly.
At Piccadilly, I wrongly asked for a return to Station Y instead of a return from Station X.
I didn't do this maliciously as it was my intention to genuinely travel back to Station Y and not Station X later that day.

If I had been returning or was buying a single ticket from Station X yet I blatantly lied to the inspector at Piccadilly by telling him I had boarded and was due to return to Station Y to get the fare cheapened I can totally understand why I may be in trouble.

In fact, I can understand why I may in trouble anyway since I guess its my responsibility to provide accurate travel information to the inspector but I in no way set out to deceive him of the 50p, I just made a mistake. If the inspector had followed up my request for 'a return to Station Y' by probing me where it was I joined the line I would have answered Station X and the correct fare would have been paid.

Considering the circumstances of that day however, I am very surprised Northern didn't exercise extra caution but then again, from Northern's view, a request for a return to Station Y suggests I have boarded there... logically. So I feel a bit stuck in it all really

 

[Stuwhu]

Playing devils advocate here
What would happen if.. someone asked for a ticket from further along the line than they got on as they wanted to return there later, but the further station had a block on. Could they be accused of fare evasion?

Eg, giving a Manchester example.. I get on the train at Ashburys, and at the barrier ask for a return from Guide Bridge (as I want to go back there later), but Guide Bridge has a block on. How could I prove I got on at Ashburys?