ENCTS and London buses

[Falcon1200]

It wasn’t at the first stop by any chance?

No, it was at Marylebone on the 205 from Paddington.

 

[fandroid]

London isn't the only place where the problem occurs. A bunch of us pass holders got on a Stagecoach bus at Keswick. Mine (from Hampshire) worked fine on the reader, as did most others. One from Manchester did not work. The bus driver said that this was perfectly normal and gave my friend a concession ticket anyway.

 

[MrJeeves]

When an ITSO card is validated on a bus ticket machine in London, the machine says ITSO card - show driver.

I assume this is referring to particular ITSO cards rather than all, since travelcards on rail ITSO smartcards "just work".

 

[matt_world2004]

ENCTS being queried on TfL Buses

After showing a national Old Codgers bus pass to the driver on TfL buses without issue for several years - today two drivers insisted that I swiped it against the Oyster reader . As expected - it shows an "invalid card" error . One then claimed it clearly wasn't valid and if I tried to use it...

www.railforums.co.uk

My original post was after showing my Hertfordshire ENCTS as usual , a few TfL drivers then insisted I swiped it against the Oyster reader - either by pointing at it or by command. Then reacting to the "invalid card" error by scowling or outright claiming it wasn't valid and by implication I needed to find another method of payment. I suspect the issue is - other than a lack of training, ENCTS looking similar to Freedom Passes so a new driver may question why a traveller hasn't bothered to swipe - perhaps its a fake or expired /reported stolen, hence the request to scan .
As suggested by a previous contributor I now carry a copy of the relevant pages from the drivers handbook - however all I do now is just say "This doesn't work on your machine" . Swipe then carry on .
This happened recently - same bus route as before - the 186 at Harrow & Wealdstone.

It is very strange your having this problem in Harrow and wealdstone of all places given the proportion of cross boundary traffic there.

 

[RJ]

I assume this is referring to particular ITSO cards rather than all, since travelcards on rail ITSO smartcards "just work".

ENCTS cards not issued by London Councils.

 

[wildcard]

Unfortunately I had another row last night (23/6 ) with a driver on the 282 at Mount Vernon Hospital over acceptance of my Herts ENCTS . He insisted I swiped the card against Oyster - I said it wouldn't work but complied anyway . He then used the "invalid card " message to claim it wasn't valid . He wouldn't listen to me saying there was an acknowledgement button to press or that is was a English national bus pass . In the heat of the moment I forgot I was carrying a copy of the revalvent page of the drivers handbook - it may have made no difference , he was fixated on the "invalid card " message. A queue was building up behind me so eventually I walked past and sat down.
I have complained to TfL. It may have been the same driver as my complaint from a few years back - the conversation eerily followed the same path.

 

[Blindtraveler]

This seriously needs sorting out. I had issues on the 96 the other day and I'm expecting them again as we go through July with more strikes

 

[Class800]

Be careful what you wish for. As we know sorting it out is seldom in our favour. The solution could be tfl withdrawing acceptance for non London passes, whether they are allowed to or not

 

[Blindtraveler]

Which would be the better solution quite frankly. We could then take them to task through whatever legal processes or appeals to politicians we chose and they would either be forced to address the issues or there would be a statutory ruling made one way or another on it. Half the time I just pay anyway but the other time recently that I had the dispute I was using the 96 as a rail replacement and was unwilling to pay any more than I'd already done for tickets I now wasn't using on the train

 

[MikeWh]

Be careful what you wish for. As we know sorting it out is seldom in our favour. The solution could be tfl withdrawing acceptance for non London passes, whether they are allowed to or not

Given the ENCTS scheme is backed by legislation I think there's no chance of that happening. They do need to sort out the drivers though.

 

[davews]

On recent trips on buses I have had no issues, just wave the card and driver smiles. As was yesterday on a 331 at Harefield. But it seems there are still some who don't know the process. Interestingly several of the school kids who swiped their Oysters got a multiple beep which presumably indicates an invalid tap but the driver totally ignored it.

 

[MikeWh]

Interestingly several of the school kids who swiped their Oysters got a multiple beep which presumably indicates an invalid tap but the driver totally ignored it.

Good. The multiple beep indicates that it's a zip card. A failed touch is two beeps.

 

[urbophile]

What about using ENCTS cards out of area outside London? Should card readers recognise these?

I think they do now. A few years ago though West Yorkshire buses (the readers, not the drivers) didn't recognise my Merseytravel pass. London obviously use a different technology.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jun 2023 ==

i genuinely try to not be party political on this forum, but to use words like 'buffoon' is just unconstructive.

Yes far too kind.

 

[davews]

Good. The multiple beep indicates that it's a zip card. A failed touch is two beeps.

Thanks, learn a bit every minute on this forum..

 

[matt_world2004]

Be careful what you wish for. As we know sorting it out is seldom in our favour. The solution could be tfl withdrawing acceptance for non London passes, whether they are allowed to or not

They cant legally withdraw acceptance for non london ENCTS passes .

 

[Blindtraveler]

They could, participation in any bus concession scheme is voluntary although highly recommended by both local and national government and in many cases registration or operation of all or part of a service is dependent on it but there are plenty of exceptions of scheduled services where they are not welcomed, I believe there's a couple of express routes somewhere in the Midlands where you can't use them and they are scheduled services rather than coach long distance and in Scotland a good example would be the dods of troon operated air to Ken Ryan service which although primarily for rail passengers with relevant tickets also takes bookings and accepts walk ups but no Scottish concession cards despite being a Scottish registered service

Where I see it is TFL have two possibilities for sorting this out. There is a third but it basically a variation on what's already being done which we have plenty of evidence in this conversation alone to prove that it's not working. That thing is of course to remind all drivers new and old on a pretty regular basis that English national concessions from out with London should be accepted at all relevant operating times, I can understand a few blank looks if you perhaps turned up with a Cumbria county Council issued card but passengers from Kent and Essex comma beds bucks and hearts, and indeed all other areas bordering London which I either have TFL services operating within them over a close to them should have no issue whatsoever




Second is to reply for an exemption for all TFL operated services, citing the fact that bus fares are cheap and that the hopper fair makes even a two or three bus trip taken over the course of an hour extremely good value for money

Finally it's to either in code the existing equipment or install new equipment that reads and recognises all English national concession cards and maybe Welsh ones as well as the scheme is similar and put an end once and for all to the ever so slightly discriminator he practiced where past holders can turn up and board any bus within London but there's a fairly moderate chance that they'll get a non acceptance and perhaps a free of charge argument which not only delays them but other passengers as well and creates poor relations and a bad image of TFL

 

[duncanp]

Be careful what you wish for. As we know sorting it out is seldom in our favour. The solution could be tfl withdrawing acceptance for non London passes, whether they are allowed to or not

The ENCTS scheme has been established by legislation, and TfL cannot withdraw acceptance for non London passes without government permission (however much they might want to) , in the same way that Manchester cannot unilaterally decide not to accept passes from outside Manchester.

Managing the English national concessionary travel scheme (ENCTS)

www.gov.uk

2/ The scheme is enshrined in primary legislation through the ‘Greater London authority act 1999’ and the ‘Transport act 2000 (as modified by the ‘Concessionary bus travel act 2007).

I have used my West Midlands ENCTS pass in London several times with no problems.

 

[matt_world2004]

They could, participation in any bus concession scheme is voluntary although highly recommended by both local and national government and in many cases registration or operation of all or part of a service is dependent on it but there are plenty of exceptions of scheduled services where they are not welcomed, I believe there's a couple of express routes somewhere in the Midlands where you can't use them and they are scheduled services rather than coach long distance and in Scotland a good example would be the dods of troon operated air to Ken Ryan service which although primarily for rail passengers with relevant tickets also takes bookings and accepts walk ups but no Scottish concession cards despite being a Scottish registered service

The only way IIRC they can withdraw their buses from the ENCTS concessionary scheme is by making the subject to European Drivers hours legislation rather than domestic working time law. this would be administratively a huge issue and would probably cost more money than it saves.

 

[urbophile]

I've never had a problem with my Merseytravel pass on London buses.

 

[Busaholic]

I have no more problem with my Cornwall pass on London services than Londoners do on Cornish services, who are numerous at this time of year, particularly the open toppers.

 

[Simon75]

I've never had a problem with my Merseytravel pass on London buses.

I have a Stoke-on-Trent issued one, I just show it to the driver. Never had an issue

 

[AM9]

Never had a problem with my Herts pass, probably more of an ignorance of the rules by some drivers, or an attitude to others getting something they don't, - occasionally a problem for us boomers. It's unlikely to be a behaviour thing with passengers of ENCTS eligibility age.

 

[richard13]

I noticed on the Somerset Bus Pass Use page, that it said that Somerset passes may not always work on TfL bus readers, in which case just show it to the driver.

 

[Busaholic]

I noticed on the Somerset Bus Pass Use page, that it said that Somerset passes may not always work on TfL bus readers, in which case just show it to the driver.

For 'may not always' substitute 'never.'

 

[Deerfold]

i genuinely try to not be party political on this forum, but to use words like 'buffoon' is just unconstructive.

But overly polite.

I worked for TfL when he was in charge. He made a decision after meeting an MP that made things worse for many more TfL passengers than it made them better for. He refused to meet with the head of my department who wanted to explain this and that we were already satisfying what the MP wanted.

Obviously as Mayor he could have ignored him, but he refused to even hear the arguments against his proclamation.

Oddly when I was there, as I received some data from ticket machines, I received an indication that the ticket machines were being updated to accept all ENTCS cards.

I'm not sure why that didn't work then, and I left the organisation 8 years ago.

 

[GusB]

As the question in the opening post has been answered, we can draw this thread to a close. Thanks you all for your responses.