Introduction of BR Blue

[L+Y]

I am fascinated by the transition era from the steam age railway of the early 1960s to the essentially modern network of the late 1970s.

I've seen plenty of threads before about locos: but here's a more niche question. Does anybody know when the first coaching stock (aside from the XP64 rake) was outshopped in blue and grey?

And did carriages go through a similarly confused livery introduction as locos, with some being outshopped in maroon (or even SR green?) even as others were appearing in blue and grey?

 

[Andy873]

I am fascinated by the transition era from the steam age railway of the early 1960s to the essentially modern network of the late 1970s.

Me too.

And did carriages go through a similarly confused livery introduction as locos, with some being outshopped in maroon (or even SR green?) even as others were appearing in blue and grey?

It looks like it. Can't answer specifically, but what I can tell you is that the last stopping trains (specials) on my old branch line (Padiham branch) were on the last week of July 1964. All the photos show the engines were pulling ex-LMS non-corridor maroon carriages.

I think the rebranding of BR started in 1965 with the shortening of its name to British Rail and the introduction of the double arrow symbol.

 

[Gloster]

According to .bloodandcustard.org the official date for the introduction of the blue livery was 1 January 1965. The last maroon coach disappeared in 1974 and Selhurst outshopped its last green unit (2-HAP 6009) in December 1968.

 

[Magdalia]

I think the rebranding of BR started in 1965 with the shortening of its name to British Rail and the introduction of the double arrow symbol.

According to .bloodandcustard.org the official date for the introduction of the blue livery was 1 January 1965.

But the roll out of the new liveries did not happen very quickly. There was a bureaucratic process to go through for each type of rolling stock, especially details such as position of fleet numbers and logos. For example, Doncaster Works were still painting locos in green in 1967.

The Great Central closed in September 1966 and I only know of one photo where a Great Central passenger train includes a blue and grey coach, though their fleet may not be a representative sample!

The last maroon coach disappeared in 1974

The wanderings of the "Derby maroon set" are quite well documented. I think there was a similar maroon set in Scotland.

 

[Strathclyder]

Not quite what the OP had in mind, but this excellent article goes into detail on BR Blue's conceptualization, prototyping (in the form of XP64), offical mandate/rollout and why it had such a impact despite being - on the surface anyway - a incredibly simple rebranding compared to the preceding Green/Maroon etc.

History: The Life & Times of Rail Blue

"So, what was the first Rail Blue train? That’s a question no one seems to want to answer. But the candidate spotlight fell on brand new loc...

railrevisited.blogspot.com

 

[Beebman]

'British Rail Mark 2 Coaches' by Michael Harris (Mallard, 1999) has the following paragraph on p39:

The first 64-seater open seconds were completed at Derby Litchurch Lane Works in the late spring of 1965, the first new carriages to carry the BR Corporate Identity livery of rail blue and pearl grey, the XP64 set having been outshopped in 1964 with an experimental livery with slightly different colour tones.

I no longer have my collection of old railway magazines but ISTR that there were various photos in 1965 issues which showed Mk1 catering vehicles outshopped in blue and grey to match the Mk2 rakes being used in trains of otherwise maroon vehicles. I also seem to recall that other Mk1s continued to be outshopped in maroon (or SR green) until sometime in 1966.

 

[Richard Scott]

'British Rail Mark 2 Coaches' by Michael Harris (Mallard, 1999) has the following paragraph on p39:

I no longer have my collection of old railway magazines but ISTR that there were various photos in 1965 issues which showed Mk1 catering vehicles outshopped in blue and grey to match the Mk2 rakes being used in trains of otherwise maroon vehicles. I also seem to recall that other Mk1s continued to be outshopped in maroon (or SR green) until sometime in 1966.

Weren't some of the early mk 2s outshopped in maroon or green?

 

[hexagon789]

Weren't some of the early mk 2s outshopped in maroon or green?

Yes, all FKs afaik

 

[Gloster]

Weren't some of the early mk 2s outshopped in maroon or green?

Yes, all FKs afaik

I think there were twenty green ones and they were intended for the Southampton Boat Trains and, possibly, the Golden Arrow: they were sometimes used for other work, particularly out of Waterloo. Once the two services had disappeared they were transferred away and the Southern made do with Mark 1s.

 

[Taunton]

According to .bloodandcustard.org the official date for the introduction of the blue livery was 1 January 1965.

A fraction before, the Modern Railways dated January 1965 would have been available a couple of weeks before, and announced it. The issue coincided with its own change from the smaller page size to A4, it had a signed introduction from BR chairman Beeching about the change, and an extended colour (equally novel then) article about the new image, the double arrow symbol, and the overall corporate identity.

 

[Beebman]

I think there were twenty green ones and they were intended for the Southampton Boat Trains and, possibly, the Golden Arrow: they were sometimes used for other work, particularly out of Waterloo. Once the two services had disappeared they were transferred away and the Southern made do with Mark 1s.

I remember travelling on a BR-organised excursion train from Reading in 1980 for Rocket 150 which went to Manchester Victoria (where everyone transferred to DMU shuttles for the final part of the journey). The train originated on the Southern and it was almost completely formed of early Mk2 FKs with their Mk1-style interiors. Presumably it was a set normally used for Southampton Boat Trains?

 

[randyrippley]

I think there were twenty green ones and they were intended for the Southampton Boat Trains and, possibly, the Golden Arrow: they were sometimes used for other work, particularly out of Waterloo. Once the two services had disappeared they were transferred away and the Southern made do with Mark 1s.

Weymouth boat trains as well. From memory two in each rake

 

[Beebman]

I've just checked my old RCTS coaching stock books - 46 Mk.2 FKs with Mk.1 interior designs were built at Derby in 1964 with 18 to Lot 30733 for the LMR and ER, and 28 to Lot 30734 for the SR. Looking at P5 books from the 80s the first batch had all gone by 1986 and the second by 1989. However by 1986 two from the second batch were allocated to Cambridge and that's jogged a memory of me travelling on one to there from Liverpool St behind a Class 86 just after electrification went live in 1987.

Weymouth boat trains as well. From memory two in each rake

Another memory I have (but much earlier and vaguer) is one of my Dad pointing out "two new coaches" on the Channel Islands Boat Train in Weymouth sometime in the mid-60s.

 

[randyrippley]

they

I've just checked my old RCTS coaching stock books - 46 Mk.2 FKs with Mk.1 interior designs were built at Derby in 1964 with 18 to Lot 30733 for the LMR and ER, and 28 to Lot 30734 for the SR. Looking at P5 books from the 80s the first batch had all gone by 1986 and the second by 1989. However by 1986 two from the second batch were allocated to Cambridge and that's jogged a memory of me travelling on one to there from Liverpool St behind a Class 86 just after electrification went live in 1987.


Another memory I have (but much earlier and vaguer) is one of my Dad pointing out "two new coaches" on the Channel Islands Boat Train in Weymouth sometime in the mid-60s.

they were easily visible from the beach, parked on the quay early afternoon

 

[L+Y]

The Great Central closed in September 1966 and I only know of one photo where a Great Central passenger train includes a blue and grey coach, though their fleet may not be a representative sample!

I think I've seen the same photo- is it a class 37 hauled York-Bournemouth train somewhere near Bulwell Common?

'British Rail Mark 2 Coaches' by Michael Harris (Mallard, 1999) has the following paragraph on p39:

This would seem to answer the question: spring 1965.

Anecdotally your comment about some maroon repaints continuing into 1966 seems to line up: it seems uncommon by 1967 to see photos of expresses with entirely maroon rakes, and by 1969 maroon is distinctly unusual.

 

[randyrippley]

FWIW last maroon coaches I saw were in summer 1971. Three attached to the back of an otherwise blue/grey rake hauled by a Peak heading west at Dawlish, presumably NE-SW saturday only service.
Coaches were in a real mess, faded peeling paint, cracked windows and peeling roof felt. Looked straight from the scrapline

 

[Magdalia]

I think I've seen the same photo- is it a class 37 hauled York-Bournemouth train somewhere near Bulwell Common?

The picture I'm thinking of is a Brush Type 4 at Nottingham Victoria very shortly before the end. The blue and grey coach is immediately behind the loco.

EE Type 3s were rare on the Newcastle-Bournemouth in the summer 1966 timetable.

 

[Beebman]

FWIW last maroon coaches I saw were in summer 1971. Three attached to the back of an otherwise blue/grey rake hauled by a Peak heading west at Dawlish, presumably NE-SW saturday only service.
Coaches were in a real mess, faded peeling paint, cracked windows and peeling roof felt. Looked straight from the scrapline

My 'lasts' are as follows:

25/04/71 (I remember it was Census Day) at Twyford - one maroon coach on the rear of a down train
June 1972 at Bangor - two maroon coaches separately in the formation of the Up Holyhead Boat Train
22/09/73 between Gloucester and Cheltenham - a complete rake (presumably the 'Derby Set') heading south spotted from a northbound excursion train to Kidderminster.

 

[Rescars]

To provide sufficient capacity for the International Motor Show at the NEC in 1978, the frequency of main line trains between Euston and Birmingham International was doubled with departures both ways every 15 minutes. The stock used for these extra trains was clearly only used very infrequently. IIRC there were one or two carriages still in maroon, though I can't remember any further details. Perhaps someone somewhere has more information.

 

[Magdalia]

The last maroon coach disappeared in 1974

To provide sufficient capacity for the International Motor Show at the NEC in 1978, the frequency of main line trains between Euston and Birmingham International was doubled with departures both ways every 15 minutes. The stock used for these extra trains was clearly only used very infrequently. IIRC there were one or two carriages still in maroon, though I can't remember any further details. Perhaps someone somewhere has more information.

1974 is the correct date for last maroon coaches in passenger service.

The Derby maroon set survived into 1975 but only as the Crewe Works Test Train, its last workings in passenger service were in the autumn of 1974.

 

[Rescars]

Thanks all. I defer to your accurate information. The passage of time plays tricks with such recollections!

 

[Taunton]

We discussed before that the Derby set was the last maroon one. There was a comparable one in Scotland, the Cowlairs excursion set, which was the last maroon train I saw, in 1972, running a football excursion from Glasgow to Edinburgh. It looked a complete riot on board as it ran into Haymarket, presumably one of the Glasgow teams was playing Hearts, and the police at Glasgow Queen Street seemed to have most effectively diverted the supporters into a different special from the regular half-hourly push-pull service. Now it was the Edinburgh police's problem. To complete the allusion, Eastfield had turned out their most down-at-heel, pockmarked paint, Class 27 with a smoky exhaust to haul it.