GWR IET's with at least one engine turned off.

[Master29]

I was going to put this in the "state of IET's thread but perhaps not a directly related inquiry.

I'm not sure whether or not this has been covered although I suspect it has. I was on a 5 car IET the other day and it seemed to have the diesel power pack turned off in the coach I was in or possibly not working. As this was through Devon I was wondering how normal this might be here and on the network in general depending on various factors like loadings etc. The train did seem sluggish at times, especially on the Hemerdon bank.

 

[Towers]

To clarify, this was one of the centre cars, not a driving car (which don’t have engines anyway)?

 

[Clarence Yard]

It’s very normal - today 20 units in the GWR fleet have at least one GU out. All because of faults - engines are not isolated for loading reasons.

 

[43096]

It’s very normal - today 20 units in the GWR fleet have at least one GU out. All because of faults - engines are not isolated for loading reasons.

The fact that this is considered “normal” tells us everything we need to know about the fleet and its maintenance. It’s a very, very good thing that Hitachi only build and “maintain” trains, not planes.

 

[Railperf]

Weren't the fleet supposed to have been re-engined to fix the early engine issues or is it simply overheating again due to pollen blocked radiators?

 

[FGW_DID]

Weren't the fleet supposed to have been re-engined to fix the early engine issues or is it simply overheating again due to pollen blocked radiators?

I may be wrong but I don’t think the fleet were re-engined, more the GUs were upgraded / up rated / unleashed*

*whichever is the best phrase to describe!

 

[800301]

Weren't the fleet supposed to have been re-engined to fix the early engine issues or is it simply overheating again due to pollen blocked radiators?

From what I can see, it’s various faults not just overheating, there is one isolated due to being over operational hours and a few others just awaiting parts/investigations.

The GU is not just the engine, it’s the entire traction pack and other parts of the system can have faults that require the GU to be isolated

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I may be wrong but I don’t think the fleet were re-engined, more the GUs were upgraded / up rated / unleashed*

*whichever is the best phrase to describe!

‘Unmuzzled’ was the term I think!

 

[Clarence Yard]

The acceleration profile has been changed (more than once) but the engines have been on the same hp rating since entering passenger service.

The engines are quite highly stressed for the duty cycle so you do sometimes get them pushing out coolant at the top and oil at the bottom but there are a myriad of individual reasons for the 20 GU isolations, some of which are mechanical, some are electrical, some require further investigation and at least one is overdue overhaul - getting enough repaired engines out of East Grinstead can sometimes be a limiting factor in the number of units running on a full set of engines.

 

[800001]

From what I can see, it’s various faults not just overheating, there is one isolated due to being over operational hours and a few others just awaiting parts/investigations.

The GU is not just the engine, it’s the entire traction pack and other parts of the system can have faults that require the GU to be isolated

Plus I think it is MTU the engine manufacturer who attend to faults with the GU, so if there is a lot of faults it will take time for MTU to attend.

 

[DanNCL]

Out of interest are the LNER and TPE 80xs having the same issues or is this worse on the GWR units?

 

[800001]

Out of interest are the LNER and TPE 80xs having the same issues or is this worse on the GWR units?

LNER normally average about 2-3 GU locked out of use per day.

 

[43096]

Plus I think it is MTU the engine manufacturer who attend to faults with the GU, so if there is a lot of faults it will take time for MTU to attend.

I would expect MTU to have a permanent presence on the depots.

 

[irish_rail]

I

Out of interest are the LNER and TPE 80xs having the same issues or is this worse on the GWR units?

I'd guess all in all the GWR engines are worked alot harder than the LNER stuff which spends much more time on electric?

 

[Clarence Yard]

The GWR units work at a higher power rating, which does stress the GU units more.

 

[MotCO]

Does Hitachi get a reduced lease payment if all engines are not working? I assume that the other engines work harder, reducing their mpg and involving additional cost to the TOC, so would that be offset by reduced lease payments.

 

[Master29]

To clarify, this was one of the centre cars, not a driving car (which don’t have engines anyway)?

It was coach B 2nd from rear.

 

[class ep-09]

Does Hitachi get a reduced lease payment if all engines are not working? I assume that the other engines work harder, reducing their mpg and involving additional cost to the TOC, so would that be offset by reduced lease payments.

What costs ?
Only if more than one engine is off on a unit , train may be delayed .
They just about to keep to times with one engine off .

 

[Railperf]

The GWR units work at a higher power rating, which does stress the GU units more.

In the six years since these engines have been introduced, surely there are reliability improvements in the pipeline to improve reliability? We have the latest engine remote monitoring devices and everyone knows what the duty cycle is now. 20 GU's out of service is poor - especially as the timings are tight enough for units with all GU's running. That's embarrasing for Hitachi/ Rolls Royce!

 

[northernbelle]

There is, of course, the point that having multiple GUs does allow for a bit of redundancy in the event of failure unlike a locomotive hauled train. Not that I'm saying isolated GUs are acceptable or without impact to the service.

It's not helped by several factors including the fact that the GWR sets spend far longer on diesel than originally intended.

The fact that maintenance of the more-reliable East Coast sets and the GW sets are both carried out by Hitachi suggests that there's a problem beyond who's doing the maintenance.

 

[43096]

There is, of course, the point that having multiple GUs does allow for a bit of redundancy in the event of failure unlike a locomotive hauled train.

It also encourages sloppy maintenance: “It’s got two engines, it’ll be fine”.

 

[Master29]

There is, of course, the point that having multiple GUs does allow for a bit of redundancy in the event of failure unlike a locomotive hauled train. Not that I'm saying isolated GUs are acceptable or without impact to the service.

It's not helped by several factors including the fact that the GWR sets spend far longer on diesel than originally intended.

The fact that maintenance of the more-reliable East Coast sets and the GW sets are both carried out by Hitachi suggests that there's a problem beyond who's doing the maintenance.

It could also be pointed out with LNER sets that many 800/1's spend about 3 hours + with the GU's running on the Aberdeen/Inverness services but that is probably offset by the fact they are not spread as thinly as their GWR counterparts across their respective networks. Is there a very subtle hint to build quality on the GWR 802's here? You may well be right.

 

[Starmill]

It could also be pointed out with LNER sets that many 800/1's spend about 3 hours + with the GU's running on the Aberdeen/Inverness services but that is probably offset by the fact they are not spread as thinly as their GWR counterparts across their respective networks. Is there a very subtle hint to build quality on the GWR 802's here? You may well be right.

Yes but that's only what six diagrams a day? And the demand on the diesel traction on Newark North Gate - Lincoln, Temple Hirst Jn - Hull, Leeds - Harrogate, Pilmoor - Middlesbrough and Newcastle - Sunderland is negligible.

 

[DanNCL]

Would be interesting to see how TPE’s 802s compare. They might spend more time under the wiresthan the GWR units but the time they spend away from the wires is on a demanding route, and they’re mostly Pistoia built like the GWR 802s.

Not sure about GWR, certainly on LNER though HSTs with a power car shut down, whilst it did happen from time to time, wasn’t a daily occurrence.

LNER normally average about 2-3 GU locked out of use per day.

Much better than GWR then. Thanks for confirming this.

I

I'd guess all in all the GWR engines are worked alot harder than the LNER stuff which spends much more time on electric?

LNER’s only unelectrified routes that could really be considered demanding are Aberdeen and Inverness. Add in the Tyne Valley for diversions, but in normal service just Aberdeen and Inverness.

 

[Clarence Yard]

In the six years since these engines have been introduced, surely there are reliability improvements in the pipeline to improve reliability? We have the latest engine remote monitoring devices and everyone knows what the duty cycle is now. 20 GU's out of service is poor - especially as the timings are tight enough for units with all GU's running. That's embarrasing for Hitachi/ Rolls Royce!

It has been much higher - 39 units is probably the highest and it was as high as 34 earlier this year. There has been quite a bit of effort by all concerned to reduce it.

I’m not sure exactly n detail what individual mods have been done but I know MTU and Hitachi have been on the case. Hitachi are making more of an effort on cleaning regimes too, such items as brake resistors are getting more of a focus.

Can we put something to bed please? There has been comments made by other posters about the build of the units, the different depots, all trying to find a differential cause of the problem. The cause is really simple, it’s the higher engine rating and duty cycle - it’s a much harder ask for the engines on GWR. That is known and accepted.

The engines are swapped out individually for overhaul on a regular basis and sometimes Hitachi can be awaiting an engine back from East Grinstead so the unit runs around with one locked out of use, out of hours.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

It has been much higher - 39 units is probably the highest and it was as high as 34 earlier this year. There has been quite a bit of effort by all concerned to reduce it.

I’m not sure exactly n detail what individual mods have been done but I know MTU and Hitachi have been on the case. Hitachi are making more of an effort on cleaning regimes too, such items as brake resistors are getting more of a focus.

Can we put something to bed please? There has been comments made by other posters about the build of the units, the different depots, all trying to find a differential cause of the problem. The cause is really simple, it’s the higher engine rating and duty cycle - it’s a much harder ask for the engines on GWR. That is known and accepted.

The engines are swapped out individually for overhaul on a regular basis and sometimes Hitachi can be awaiting an engine back from East Grinstead so the unit runs around with one locked out of use, out of hours.

The planned / actual extent of the OHLE has never been changed on the London-Penzance route and the characteristics of the route certainly haven’t changed, so the overall duty cycles were perfectly clear throughout. If the engine maintenance regime hasn’t been up to the task then that’s Hitachi’s fault. If the design wasn’t up to the task of keeping trains reliably in service, even in summer which does happen every year… then it’s Hitachi’s fault. Build quality would also be Hitachi’s fault but if you’re saying that’s not a factor then fair enough. Diagramming regime and fleet size vs reliability requirements are all surely set down in the contracts with Hitachi. There’s a definite theme in all of this!

 

[Clarence Yard]

I do wonder if, in the end, the engines will have to be derated.

There is an emerging theme with these units, whether it be the GUs, potentially the wrong grade of aluminium used in key components (or the welding thereof), durability of the seats, durability of the toilet equipment, the wheelsets not lasting to overhaul and so on. They are not exactly trouble free.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I do wonder if, in the end, the engines will have to be derated.

There is an emerging theme with these units, whether it be the GUs, potentially the wrong grade of aluminium used in key components (or the welding thereof), durability of the seats, durability of the toilet equipment, the wheelsets not lasting to overhaul and so on. They are not exactly trouble free.

That will not be a welcome development as it will presumably invalidate the sectional timings.

 

[themiller]

If one engine in a set fails, don’t the remaining engines automatically have their power rating restriction lifted?

 

[mangyiscute]

Just a random question I have about the IETs, I sometimes see them running with the front cone open, which must massively reduce the aerodynamics of the train. How does this affect performance?