Project Oval: TfL win DfT contract to expand contactless system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, Railcards coming to contactless payment cards

[DynamicSpirit]

Noted in another thread that c2c have priced Contactless fares at all stations on their network, and to other destinations.

For example:
Shoeburyness to Thorpe Bay is shown priced as £2.20 'Cpay peak info' and £1.70 'Cpay offpk info'

Shoeburyness to Reading is shown priced as £32 'Cpay peak info' according to BRFares, but there is no off-peak price set yet.

Interestingly, Southern have priced Reigate to Redhill at £1.70 peak and £1.50 off-peak, so presumably they are also thinking about the Contactless fare setting. Here, not all fares are set from Reigate.

No sign of a standalone reader at Reigate yet.

Chiltern are in on the act as well, with their provisional fares reaching High Wycombe, and Southeastern at Sevenoaks, but not via Eynsford.

Where this becomes interesting is that it now allows us to see what some of the actual contactless prices will be. Doing a bit of browsing around seems to me to confirm that TOCs are pricing contactless at about half the cost of an equivalent return fare, give or take a bit, so people making single journeys will hugely benefit from cheaper journeys, and people making return journeys may benefit slightly - but there are cases where it's still slightly cheaper to buy a paper return where that's available - especially if you're travelling at a time when super-off-peak or weekender fares are available. I imagine paper travelcards will still be the cheaper option for people who want to make return journeys into London AND use TfL services around London though.

I imagine the issue will be though that the people who benefit will be people like - probably, most of us here - who will know how to look on somewhere like brfares.com to check what the cheapest option will be. Your average passenger who just rolls up at the station and randomly either uses contactless or buys a paper ticket depending on habit/etc. is less likely to benefit from cheaper fares.

 

[JonathanH]

Indeed, it shows that this phase of Project Oval doesn't move away from the process already started by the original extension of Oyster to National Rail fares in London in 2010.

For so long as there remains two fares structures people will be able to choose what works best for them. If and when the existing structure is withdrawn, passengers will be subject to the single leg pricing structure with all the anomalies that introduces for evening peak journeys.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I can definitely see myself doing some new combined train-cycle trips that I wouldn't otherwise have made (because single paper fares are so expensive) once the project is rolled out.

I'm also thinking that, when combined with the £2/£2.50 single bus fare cap, this could give rise to some interesting day leisure trips involving part-train, part-bus. (I realise though, while I'd certainly do that, it's a bit of a niche market, and not going to generate masses of new custom).

 

[JonathanH]

Checking fares from Shoeburyness, I think we may be able to identify 47 of the 52 stations in the first phase.

Sevenoaks, Dunton Green

Bat & Ball, Otford, Shoreham, Eynsford

Reigate

High Wycombe, Beaconsfield, Seer Green, Gerrards Cross, Denham Golf Club, Denham

Great Missenden

Shoeburyness, Thorpe Bay, Southend East, Southend Central, Westcliff-on-Sea, Chalkwell, Leigh-on-Sea, Benfleet, Pitsea, Basildon, Laindon, West Horndon

Stanford-le-Hope, East Tilbury, Tilbury Town

Luton, Leagrave

Watford North, Garston, Bricket Wood, How Wood, Park Street, St Albans Abbey

Kings Langley, Apsley, Hemel Hempstead, Berkhampstead, Tring, Cheddington, Leighton Buzzard, Bletchley, Milton Keynes Central, Wolverton

However, I also note a Contactless fare priced from Reading to Sevenoaks 'via Guildford', which might be imagined to be something for the next phase, as almost every station on the way is outside the planned area.
https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=RDG&dest=SEV

 

[DynamicSpirit]

However, I also note a Contactless fare priced from Reading to Sevenoaks 'via Guildford', which might be imagined to be something for the next phase, as almost every station on the way is outside the planned area.
https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=RDG&dest=SEV

That one would make sense as part of the first phase since Reading and Sevenoaks will both individually be in the contactless zone. The fact that you'll be passing through non-contactless stations en-route would appear to be no different from the situation that I would presume must exist today if you go from Reading to Waterloo on contactless?

(EDIT: And theoretically someone could already be travelling that route on contactless between Reading and Gatwick Airport anyway. I imagine it must complicate the lives of any revenue inspectors between Reading and Guildford/Redhill though: You'd need to allow for that people might be travelling on contactless, although in practice almost no-one will be).

 

[JonathanH]

That one would make sense as part of the first phase since Reading and Sevenoaks will both individually be in the contactless zone. The fact that you'll be passing through non-contactless stations en-route would appear to be no different from the situation that I would presume must exist today if you go from Reading to Waterloo on contactless?

It isn't permitted to travel with a Contactless card on a direct train between Reading and Feltham at present as it is outside the permitted area.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It isn't permitted to travel with a Contactless card on a direct train between Reading and Feltham at present as it is outside the permitted area.

Ah OK. I can imagine that rule confusing a few people seeing as the train is travelling between places that are both obviously within contactless. Luckily I'd imagine very few people would take that route from Reading all the way to Waterloo anyway, since going via Paddington is so much quicker.

 

[jnjkerbin]

Interesting that the fares to Sevenoaks on BRFares are marked OYSTER CARD REQUIRED. Are we to read into this that it's not just Contactless being introduced here, but also an extension of the Oyster zones? I was under the impression this was only going to be Contactless - perhaps I missed something.

 

[MrJeeves]

Interesting that the fares to Sevenoaks on BRFares are marked OYSTER CARD REQUIRED. Are we to read into this that it's not just Contactless being introduced here, but also an extension of the Oyster zones? I was under the impression this was only going to be Contactless - perhaps I missed something.

That's simply how BRFares shows them rather than anything else.

You see the same for fares to/from Reading.

My understanding is that it's simply saying this fare is only available through TfL Oyster/Contactless, but the system doesn't know which ones are valid and defaults to saying Oyster.

Definitely no Oyster extension.

 

[jnjkerbin]

That's simply how BRFares shows them rather than anything else.

You see the same for fares to/from Reading.

My understanding is that it's simply saying this fare is only available through TfL Oyster/Contactless, but the system doesn't know which ones are valid and defaults to saying Oyster.

Definitely no Oyster extension.

I see, that makes sense. Thanks

 

[Roast Veg]

Ah OK. I can imagine that rule confusing a few people seeing as the train is travelling between places that are both obviously within contactless. Luckily I'd imagine very few people would take that route from Reading all the way to Waterloo anyway, since going via Paddington is so much quicker.

Most travelers will use a journey planner, which will take them via Paddington. The ones that don't will look at the London zonal fare map and (correctly) assume that contactless is valid via Paddington.

 

[Jammy Dodger]

Is there any update on where contactless will be expanded to over the entire project? The only map I've seen is from the 2019 consultation - has it changed or not?

 

[JonathanH]

The only map I've seen is from the 2019 consultation - has it changed or not?

Previous posters have advised that the map has changed, but an updated version is not available.

 

[etr221]

Most travelers will use a journey planner, which will take them via Paddington. The ones that don't will look at the London zonal fare map and (correctly) assume that contactless is valid via Paddington.

The issue is that - for these sort of journeys - the fact that Oyster/Contactless is not valid is not made clear: the Oyster information system says that Oyster/Contactless is accepted at both ends, and you can use it travel from end to other, and this is the default fare, but if you go this way it will be that - but does not say that if you go the direct way, Oyster/Contactless isn't valid...

 

[Roast Veg]

The issue is that - for these sort of journeys - the fact that Oyster/Contactless is not valid is not made clear: the Oyster information system says that Oyster/Contactless is accepted at both ends, and you can use it travel from end to other, and this is the default fare, but if you go this way it will be that - but does not say that if you go the direct way, Oyster/Contactless isn't valid...

But in order to "accidentally" find oneself on an invalid route, one must ignore the advice of both the journey planner and the London suburban map.

 

[Hadders]

Checking fares from Shoeburyness, I think we may be able to identify 47 of the 52 stations in the first phase.

Sevenoaks, Dunton Green

Bat & Ball, Otford, Shoreham, Eynsford

Reigate

High Wycombe, Beaconsfield, Seer Green, Gerrards Cross, Denham Golf Club, Denham

Great Missenden

Shoeburyness, Thorpe Bay, Southend East, Southend Central, Westcliff-on-Sea, Chalkwell, Leigh-on-Sea, Benfleet, Pitsea, Basildon, Laindon, West Horndon

Stanford-le-Hope, East Tilbury, Tilbury Town

Luton, Leagrave

Watford North, Garston, Bricket Wood, How Wood, Park Street, St Albans Abbey

Kings Langley, Apsley, Hemel Hempstead, Berkhampstead, Tring, Cheddington, Leighton Buzzard, Bletchley, Milton Keynes Central, Wolverton

However, I also note a Contactless fare priced from Reading to Sevenoaks 'via Guildford', which might be imagined to be something for the next phase, as almost every station on the way is outside the planned area.
https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=RDG&dest=SEV

Good work! I agree this does look like the likely list for phase 1.

I’m surprised that Welwyn North, Knebworth, Watton at Stone and Stevenage aren’t on the list as it would then cover the whole of the Great Northern outer suburban service, although I suspect there’ll need to be some negotiation with LNER for Stevenage to be included.

 

[miklcct]

But in order to "accidentally" find oneself on an invalid route, one must ignore the advice of both the journey planner and the London suburban map.

The journey planner will tell someone from Richmond to Reading to travel on the direct train. In such case, BOOM! Penalty fare!

 

[ThameslinkUser]

What's intriguing to me is that they seem to be sticking to peak 0630-0929 departures for all locations, including the further destinations such as Shoreburyness. Given the longer commutes involved, and thus the earlier peak of departures, I'm surprised to see that the TOCs haven't pushed for differing peak times for differing departure locations.

 

[Ediswan]

Most travelers will use a journey planner, which will take them via Paddington. The ones that don't will look at the London zonal fare map and (correctly) assume that contactless is valid via Paddington.

I tried the NRE journey planner for Reading to Waterloo 'Show only direct trains'. That does not go via Paddington.

 

[Haywain]

although I suspect there’ll need to be some negotiation with LNER for Stevenage to be included.

LNER have been involved in Project Oval for quite a while now, precisely because of Stevenage being included.

What's intriguing to me is that they seem to be sticking to peak 0630-0929 departures for all locations, including the further destinations such as Shoreburyness. Given the longer commutes involved, and thus the earlier peak of departures, I'm surprised to see that the TOCs haven't pushed for differing peak times for differing departure locations.

No scope for changing those times is available to TOCs.

 

[MrJeeves]

Checking fares from Shoeburyness, I think we may be able to identify 47 of the 52 stations in the first phase.

Sounds like I need to download the fares data again...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jun 2023 ==

I tried the NRE journey planner for Reading to Waterloo 'Show only direct trains'. That does not go via Paddington.

And then it does not show the journey as available with Contactless...

 

[JonathanH]

Sounds like I need to download the fares data again...

Tilehurst and Reading West were also shown, but this could just be the result of them being in Reading's cluster, so I didn't include them.

Also Sevenoaks has fares to Stone Crossing and Greenhithe, but these locations didn't seem to be identified from Shoeburyness.

Clearly downloading all the data might enable all combinations to be identified.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Most travelers will use a journey planner, which will take them via Paddington. The ones that don't will look at the London zonal fare map and (correctly) assume that contactless is valid via Paddington.

Most occasional travellers will do that. But what about commuters at Reading who have got completely used to using contactless to get to London, and who are likely to be already aware that the slower route exists so feel no need to check a map. If one day some reason comes up to use the slower route (disruption on GWR? Or maybe one day you actually want to go to Richmond or somewhere in SW London?) than it's very plausible that you'll just touch in at Reading and hop on the Waterloo train on the basis that you 'know' contactless is valid from Reading to London.

 

[Jammy Dodger]

Clearly downloading all the data might enable all combinations to be identified.

Where is this data from, and is it publicly accessible?

 

[MrJeeves]

Where is this data from, and is it publicly accessible?

You need to fill out a form to get access, but it's one of the top results when you search "rail fares data" on Google.

It's not distributed in a particularly friendly format.

 

[Bread & cheese]

Checking fares from Shoeburyness, I think we may be able to identify 47 of the 52 stations in the first phase.

Sevenoaks, Dunton Green

Bat & Ball, Otford, Shoreham, Eynsford

Reigate

High Wycombe, Beaconsfield, Seer Green, Gerrards Cross, Denham Golf Club, Denham

Great Missenden

Shoeburyness, Thorpe Bay, Southend East, Southend Central, Westcliff-on-Sea, Chalkwell, Leigh-on-Sea, Benfleet, Pitsea, Basildon, Laindon, West Horndon

Stanford-le-Hope, East Tilbury, Tilbury Town

Luton, Leagrave

Watford North, Garston, Bricket Wood, How Wood, Park Street, St Albans Abbey

Kings Langley, Apsley, Hemel Hempstead, Berkhampstead, Tring, Cheddington, Leighton Buzzard, Bletchley, Milton Keynes Central, Wolverton

However, I also note a Contactless fare priced from Reading to Sevenoaks 'via Guildford', which might be imagined to be something for the next phase, as almost every station on the way is outside the planned area.
https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=RDG&dest=SEV

Sevenoaks has contactless fares to Ashford (Surrey), Staines, Wraysbury, Sunnymeads, Datchet, Windsor & Eton Riverside.

 

[Jamiescott1]

I've seen a lot of people wave their credit / debit card at ticket inspector on the marlow branch line. When they disembark they go no where near the card reader.

 

[Hadders]

I've seen a lot of people wave their credit / debit card at ticket inspector on the marlow branch line. When they disembark they go no where near the card reader.

That’s likely to cost them a maximum fare if they’ve touched in at the start of their journey and not touched out at Marlow.

 

[matt_world2004]

That’s likely to cost them a maximum fare if they’ve touched in at the start of their journey and not touched out at Marlow.

Or they are aware the inspector cannot read their card and are getting a free ride

 

[Hadders]

Or they are aware the inspector cannot read their card and are getting a free ride

They would get a free ride if they didn’t touch in and touch out.

If they only touch in at one end of the journey they would end up paying more.