The evolution of the English language over time

[duncanp]

Having visited Manchester today, does anyone know why Altrincham is spelt with a C, but pronounced as if the C were a G.

After all, you don't have Birmincham.

Just curious.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Having visited Manchester today, does anyone know why Altrincham is spelt with a C, but pronounced as if the C were a G.

Probably reflects the place's original name (back in 1290, when the town received a charter, it was 'Aldringeham' apparently).

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I don’t mind splitting the infinitive in certain circumstance. “To boldly go where no man has gone before” sounds much better than “to go boldly…..”

“Of” is NOT a verb.

I can live with turning “party” into a verb.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In the evolution of the English language discussion, I am minded to recall those early settlers from England who made that part of the eastern coastal regions of the USA their home and the possibility of verbal speech being amended over the following generations to what seems common verbal usage these days. It does appear that with the letter "T", they have no problem if that letter is the first one in a word, but with words where the letter "T" is in the miidle or end of the word, they always verbally use the letter "D". I well recall Madeleine Albright who held high office there as the 64th United States Secretary of State always referring the military alliance as NADO, not NATO, and left me wondering what the North American Doughnut Association had to do with nuclear deterrent. Elvis Presley in the song "Return to Sender" said that his "ledder" kept coming back.

 

[Calthrop]

I don’t mind splitting the infinitive in certain circumstance. “To boldly go where no man has gone before” sounds much better than “to go boldly…..”

I certainly like -- and am ready to go with -- the proposition that the "don't split infinitives" rule is a piece of idiocy, propounded by hyper-pedantic "scholars" some two or three centuries ago: who with their worshipful attitude toward the Latin language, tried to decree that English grammar should follow the rules of Latin ditto. I think it was Bill Bryson who commented on this, that it makes about as much sense, as trying to play football following the rules of baseball. Since you can't split an infinitive in Latin; with Latin infinitives being one-word (amare = "to love") -- these loons attempted to lay down a law that you mustn't split one in English; whose infinitives are two-word jobs ("to" + whatever the verb is). And for some strange reason, people bought into this demented stuff, and continue to do so.

 

[duncanp]

Probably reflects the place's original name (back in 1290, when the town received a charter, it was 'Aldringeham' apparently).

So how come it is spelt with a C today?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So how come it is spelt with a C today?

"C" is more refined than "G" and relects the better quality of the residents of Altrincham....

I refer you to a reading of the Bugsworth versus Buxworth saga.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

So how come it is spelt with a C today?

And still pronounced 'G'?

A ploy to spot outsiders, perhaps?

P.S. The place name was apparently sometimes spelt both as 'Altrincham' and 'Altringham' until only a couple of centuries or so ago.

 

[341o2]

I certainly like -- and am ready to go with -- the proposition that the "don't split infinitives" rule is a piece of idiocy, propounded by hyper-pedantic "scholars" some two or three centuries ago: who with their worshipful attitude toward the Latin language, tried to decree that English grammar should follow the rules of Latin ditto. I think it was Bill Bryson who commented on this, that it makes about as much sense, as trying to play football following the rules of baseball. Since you can't split an infinitive in Latin; with Latin infinitives being one-word (amare = "to love") -- these loons attempted to lay down a law that you mustn't split one in English; whose infinitives are two-word jobs ("to" + whatever the verb is). And for some strange reason, people bought into this demented stuff, and continue to do so.

You might say Latin is a dead language, because it is fixed in time, whereas other languages are changing all the time. For example, I recently learned that "Ciao" is becoming popular in informal German (and other languages), with the same meaning as in Italy.

Regarding Star Trek, it has already been suggested would you rather be Gene Roddenberry with the Star Trek franchise, or Mr Angry Letter Writer to the Times

 

[duncanp]

And still pronounced 'G'?

A ploy to spot outsiders, perhaps?

P.S. The place name was apparently sometimes spelt both as 'Altrincham' and 'Altringham' until only a couple of centuries or so ago.

I suppose it is like Milngavie near Glasgow, which has the English spelling but the Gaelic pronounciation "Mull Guy"

There are other similar examples, like centre and metre, where we retain the French spelling but the English pronounciation.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

You might say Latin is a dead language, because it is fixed in time, whereas other languages are changing all the time.

If Latin is a dead language for the reasons that you state, why does it still feature in certain noted sections of society in its continued usage?

 

[Yew]

My favourite of these is definitely 'doggy-dog world'.

Often used be people looking for an escape goat.

 

[AlterEgo]

Often used be people looking for an escape goat.

Or people who hang "ballballs" on the Christmas tree!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Regarding Star Trek, it has already been suggested would you rather be Gene Roddenberry with the Star Trek franchise, or Mr Angry Letter Writer to the Times

No contest.

 

[Calthrop]

Or people who hang "ballballs" on the Christmas tree!

"Take away that ballball !" roared Oliver Cromwell...

 

[ComUtoR]

Sounds like its time for another game of 'catphrase'

Link is to Dave Gorman's Modern life is Goodish. Where he plays 'Catphrase'

 

[simonw]

If Latin is a dead language for the reasons that you state, why does it still feature in certain noted sections of society in its continued usage?

For the very reason that it is dead and therefore words in Latin will not change their meaning.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I don't recall ever seeing the equivalent of the "Grocer's apostrophe" in other languages, but as I'm not fluent in any of those languages I may well have missed them.

I'm not sure it would be reasonably possible to have the grocer's apostrophe in any other language? As far as I'm aware, English is pretty much unique in using an apostrophe to mark the role that a noun plays in a sentence, which would imply the grocer's apostrophe mistake should generally also be unique to English: Off the top of my head, I can't think of any other language in which it's very common to spell words with an apostrophe in some situations but without an apostrophe in other situations. (Unless anyone else knows of such a language?)

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'm not sure it would be reasonably possible to have the grocer's apostrophe in any other language? As far as I'm aware, English is pretty much unique in using an apostrophe to mark the role that a noun plays in a sentence, which would imply the grocer's apostrophe mistake should generally also be unique to English: Off the top of my head, I can't think of any other language in which it's very common to spell words with an apostrophe in some situations but without an apostrophe in other situations. (Unless anyone else knows of such a language?)

Good point, the peculiarities of English are quite odd when looked at objectively. Not least because English also doesn't use diacritics (except occasionally in loan-words such as cliché, and even then they're often omitted), meaning pronunciation is a bit of a minefield for non-native (and indeed many native) speakers. The closest parallel would probably be if a diacritic marker is omitted in a language such as French, German or Czech. Although I can't think of an example off the top of my head where the absence of such would dramatically change the meaning of a sentence, I'm pretty sure they will exist.

 

[Bungle158]

The above words go back a long way and undoubtedly have a common source.

In Latin, 'Ecclesia' means a church or place of worship, and the word probably also has Ancient Greek origins.

Modern Greek uses ἐκκλησία (ekklisia), as an everyday word for a church building, although l believe the term was originally applied to an official meeting or gathering.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jun 2023 ==

On a slightly different note I do find how food travels interesting.

I recall having dinner in Germany and tucking into a creamy white rye soup, which is the exact same as Zurek in Poland.
when I mentioned it was also in Polish the readily disagreed and said it was theirs.

but Pollo Milanese, Wiener Schnitzel and Kotley Schabowy are all pretty much the exact same breaded pork or chicken cutlet which travelled with the language, making it impossible to really identify who owns it… even Chicken Kiev and Chicken Cordon Bleu arent that far removed from the above…as can be expected, the Americans claim they invented it as “chicken fried steak” in Texas.

Then we shouldn't be surprised to learn that French Fries were allegedly invented in Belgium

 

[dangie]

Maybe English should be like German and condense a whole sentence into just one word. Just Google 'long German words' for examples.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Maybe English should be like German and condense a whole sentence into just one word. Just Google 'long German words' for examples.

If we were to actually do that, the English language might soon start to sound something like one-time "Professor" Stanley Unwin's idiosyncratic (and decidedly incomprehensible) take on things. See link below...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Maybe English should be like German and condense a whole sentence into just one word. Just Google 'long German words' for examples.

There are a number of contributors to this website who take delight in using such German "condensed" words appertaining to the railway network when the opportunity arises.

 

[341o2]

For the very reason that it is dead and therefore words in Latin will not change their meaning.

It is used academically, like classical Greek, because, for example, there is a large volume of literature written in these languages.

I believe the longest compound noun in German translates as "the wife of the director of the steamship company"

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I like Welsh settlement names, as many are word-block composed and a basic knowledge can help you translate their meanings....and make up new ones..

 

[simonw]

It is used academically, like classical Greek, because, for example, there is a large volume of literature written in these languages.

I believe the longest compound noun in German translates as "the wife of the director of the steamship company"

When you say "it is used accademically" are you saying people produce new work written in ancient Greek or latin" or do you mean people study ancient texts written in dead languages?

 

[duncanp]

Maybe English should be like German and condense a whole sentence into just one word. Just Google 'long German words' for examples.

Rather like

Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch

in Welsh, which means

"...St Mary's Church in the hollow of the white hazel near to the rapid whirlpool of Llantysilio of the red cave..."

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Rather like

Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch

in Welsh, which means

"...St Mary's Church in the hollow of the white hazel near to the rapid whirlpool of Llantysilio of the red cave..."

Out of interest, which bit of that means, 'Mary's'. I'm curious because you would expect Mary, being a proper name, wouldn't change that much in translation - but there's nothing in the Welsh name that looks remotely like 'Mary'.

 

[duncanp]

Out of interest, which bit of that means, 'Mary's'. I'm curious because you would expect Mary, being a proper name, wouldn't change that much in translation - but there's nothing in the Welsh name that looks remotely like 'Mary'.

According to google translate, Llan means "..church.." in Welsh, and Fair means "..Mary..".

This would explain why so many Welsh place names begin with Llan, eg.

Llanaber = "..church by the estuary.."
Llanfairfechan = "..the small St Mary's church.."

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I like Welsh settlement names, as many are word-block composed and a basic knowledge can help you translate their meanings....and make up new ones..

Porthcawl is a funny one... "Gate soup"