Caledonian Sleeper

[lachlan]

Just realised the classic rooms don’t include lounge access at Euston. Feels rather petty that you have to pay for the more expensive room, given the cost of even the cheapest rooms

 

[ajrm]

Just realised the classic rooms don’t include lounge access at Euston. Feels rather petty that you have to pay for the more expensive room, given the cost of even the cheapest rooms

Leading to the absurd situation that passengers whose berth includes an en-suite shower also have access to the showers at Euston, while those without are barred. CS has its own lounge at Euston under construction, presumably with the intention that all customers will have access?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Leading to the absurd situation that passengers whose berth includes an en-suite shower also have access to the showers at Euston, while those without are barred. CS has its own lounge at Euston under construction, presumably with the intention that all customers will have access?

It's kind of odd that Victoria has no sleeper trains but has showers in the normal toilets, but Euston has sleeper trains and doesn't (Paddington does, I've used them). But I'm genuinely surprised CS haven't just got some shower-in-a-trailer units and plonked them in a spare corner of P1/2.

 

[JamieL]

Just realised the classic rooms don’t include lounge access at Euston. Feels rather petty that you have to pay for the more expensive room, given the cost of even the cheapest rooms

Leading to the absurd situation that passengers whose berth includes an en-suite shower also have access to the showers at Euston, while those without are barred. CS has its own lounge at Euston under construction, presumably with the intention that all customers will have access?

Classic customers are standard class. And as bowled out earlier in the thread, only club is marketed as a hotel experience. I believe standard class users of the CS can buy a shower token to use the facilities as Euston if they wish.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Classic customers are standard class. And as bowled out earlier in the thread, only club is marketed as a hotel experience. I believe standard class users of the CS can buy a shower token to use the facilities as Euston if they wish.

It's all marketed as a hotel due to the prices. Perhaps Classic is a Premier Inn and Club is a Hilton, but the prices are very much based around "Advance on a day train or budget flight plus one hotel night", which makes sense as this is the choice the vast majority of users are making.

If it was marketed as "hostel bed plus budget flight" it'd be a third of the price. And even hostels have showers. 40 years ago a bath once or twice a week may have been normal, but these days a daily shower is a basic expectation.

 

[Trainbike46]

Classic customers are standard class. And as bowled out earlier in the thread, only club is marketed as a hotel experience. I believe standard class users of the CS can buy a shower token to use the facilities as Euston if they wish.

Lounge access varies by station, though at the stations where the sleeper has its own lounges all sleeper passengers tend to get lounge access. presumably this will also apply to euston once the new sleeper lounge opens

 

[Caleb2010]

Lounge access varies by station, though at the stations where the sleeper has its own lounges all sleeper passengers tend to get lounge access. presumably this will also apply to euston once the new sleeper lounge opens

Not so at Fort William, there’s a notice on the door informing intended users of exactly who is, and isn’t allowed in!

 

[JamieL]

It's all marketed as a hotel due to the prices.

We discussed this earlier in the thread. CS markets themselves as a "unique way to travel". The only reference anyone could find to a hotel when challenged was a note on Club cabins ("a hotel experience").

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2023 ==

40 years ago a bath once or twice a week may have been normal, but these days a daily shower is a basic expectation.

Indeed, but it doesn't have to be on the CS or in the lounge! You can always shower when you get home/to work.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2023 ==

Lounge access varies by station, though at the stations where the sleeper has its own lounges all sleeper passengers tend to get lounge access. presumably this will also apply to euston once the new sleeper lounge opens

Lounge access is specifically stated on applicable fares - Club and Club Double get it, Classic and Seat do not:

Accommodation

Accommodation | Caledonian Sleeper. View the accommodation options available on Caledonian Sleeper services between London and Scotland.

www.sleeper.scot

Realistically, it would not be practical for all classic users to use the lounges. At Euston there are only a handful of showers and it would be pretty unfair on First Class users of the lounge, such as those getting the morning Avanti services, if they had to contend with a trainload of standard class users piling in.

 

[Trainbike46]

We discussed this earlier in the thread. CS markets themselves as a "unique way to travel". The only reference anyone could find to a hotel when challenged was a note on Club cabins ("a hotel experience").

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2023 ==


Indeed, but it doesn't have to be on the CS or in the lounge! You can always shower when you get home/to work.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Jun 2023 ==


Lounge access is specifically stated on applicable fares - Club and Club Double get it, Classic and Seat do not:

Accommodation

Accommodation | Caledonian Sleeper. View the accommodation options available on Caledonian Sleeper services between London and Scotland.

www.sleeper.scot

Realistically, it would not be practical for all classic users to use the lounges. At Euston there are only a handful of showers and it would be pretty unfair on First Class users of the lounge, such as those getting the morning Avanti services, if they had to contend with a trainload of standard class users piling in.

As I stated upthread, it varies by station. See the attached screenshot from the CS website, at some stations all CS passengers can use the lounge, at others only certain ticket types are allowed. This is probably to do with passenger numbers relative to lounge capacity.

At euston, the conflict with Avanti passengers you mention will of course disappear when CS' own lounge opens, so access may be extended to more ticket types at that time. I guess we shall see

source of screenshot attached: https://www.sleeper.scot/guest-lounges/

 

[sirren]

it would be pretty unfair on First Class users of the lounge, such as those getting the morning Avanti services, if they had to contend with a trainload of standard class users piling in.

‘Contend with’? ‘Trainload’? ‘Piling in’? Really? Said as someone who has travelled both Club and Classic, depending on availability. I tend to walk, not pile .

If the facilities are currently inadequate then it’s those that should change, rather than anything else. CS don’t sell Club by labelling it ‘first class’, so the designation (implied or otherwise) on the lounges would also be better without the label.

 

[JamieL]

‘Contend with’? ‘Trainload’? ‘Piling in’? Really? Said as someone who has travelled both Club and Classic, depending on availability. I tend to walk, not pile .

If the facilities are currently inadequate then it’s those that should change, rather than anything else. CS don’t sell Club by labelling it ‘first class’, so the designation (implied or otherwise) on the lounges would also be better without the label.

The facilities in London (and also Glasgow and Edinburgh) are not owned by CS. I am sure if more people paid for Club, rather than expect a freebee, then CS might seek an uplift in facilities? Currently though, they market the tickets accordingly - Club get a shower, classic don't.

 

[sirren]

The facilities in London (and also Glasgow and Edinburgh) are not owned by CS. I am sure if more people paid for Club, rather than expect a freebee, then CS might seek an uplift in facilities? Currently though, they market the tickets accordingly - Club get a shower, classic don't.

I’m aware of the nature of the facilities. I travel with CS, have done for years. Correct me if I’m wrong but I think you’ve argued upthread about how well patronised CS are, which means that some who would like a Club room can’t get one because sold out, so it’s not quite so simple as you suggest.

I was trying (and obviously failing) to point out that the language used was ‘pretty unfair’. Much like ‘expect a freebie’.

Oh well, back to the cupboard for me

 

[JamieL]

I’m aware of the nature of the facilities. I travel with CS, have done for years. Correct me if I’m wrong but I think you’ve argued upthread about how well patronised CS are, which means that some who would like a Club room can’t get one because sold out, so it’s not quite so simple as you suggest.

Shower tokens are available for purchase!

 

[sirren]

Shower tokens are available for purchase!

Again, yes, I know.

What if a ‘trainload of standard class users’ bearing shower tokens piled in? Would that be ok? Is the objection the trainload etc, or the perception that it’s not paid for? How would a trainload purchasing shower tokens help inadequate facilities from being overwhelmed (I assume that’s what you meant by ‘contend with’)?

Maybe go back to my first meant-to-be constructive comment about improving the facilities? In 2023, someone travelling overnight wanting a shower in the morning isn’t unreasonable, but showers are just a resource to be paid for, not something to be guarded for those lucky enough to have purchased a ticket that means they‘re likely not to need an after-travel shower in the first place.

Not so long ago I was in Rothesay, where free and clean showers were available to anyone who wanted or needed one. There’s a thought!

 

[Davester50]

We discussed this earlier in the thread. CS markets themselves as a "unique way to travel". The only reference anyone could find to a hotel when challenged was a note on Club cabins ("a hotel experience").

Nope.

https://www.transport.gov.scot/news/dream-overhaul-for-iconic-sleeper-service/

Dream overhaul for iconic Sleeper service​

Incoming operator Serco unveiled the new look of the service in Inverness, the home of the new Caledonian Sleeper franchise, at the city’s new Guest Service Centre.
Ms Sturgeon met with the award-winning Scottish design team who are creating the luxurious new interiors for the passenger lounges and the new trains and the uniforms for the staff, both of which will help turn the Caledonian Sleeper from a rail journey into a hotel on wheels.

No mention of any class.

 

[alistairlees]

Nope.

https://www.transport.gov.scot/news/dream-overhaul-for-iconic-sleeper-service/



No mention of any class.

That was 8 years ago. It’s not how the trains are marketed today

 

[Davester50]

That was 8 years ago. It’s not how the trains are marketed today

It's what the promise was.
Some of us don't forget what the promise was, and reality is.

It's false to say the promise was never a hotel on wheels for anyone other than the en-suite.

 

[JamieL]

Nope.

https://www.transport.gov.scot/news/dream-overhaul-for-iconic-sleeper-service/



No mention of any class.

That is a Scottish Government press release from 2015 who were discussing Serco being offered the contract. The current service didn’t start until 2019 - can you find anything from the actual operator since then? If not, it rather proves my point. The CS is not marketed as a hotel on wheels - it is labelled as an "unique way to travel".

Moreover, apply some critical thinking to that throw away comment on the press release. If they are talking about the whole train, vice Club and Double (which probably had not even been designed in 2015), does that mean the seated coach is also a "hotel experience"? How about standing in a vestibule? Is that also a "hotel experience". Framed as such, you can see the absurdity in relying in a near decade old press release. Look at the current literature to understand the services offered.

 

[jagardner1984]

That is a Scottish Government press release from 2015 who were discussing Serco being offered the contract. The current service didn’t start until 2019 - can you find anything from the actual operator since then? If not, it rather proves my point. The CS is not marketed as a hotel on wheels - it is labelled as an "unique way to travel".

Moreover, apply some critical thinking to that throw away comment on the press release. If they are talking about the whole train, vice Club and Double (which probably had not even been designed in 2015), does that mean the seated coach is also a "hotel experience"? How about standing in a vestibule? Is that also a "hotel experience". Framed as such, you can see the absurdity in relying in a near decade old press release. Look at the current literature to understand the services offered.

I think the broader point is that when paying £150+ per night - easier access to a shower at the end of your journey doesn’t seem entirely unreasonable and is a fairly basic requirement of most people each morning - in a way it wasn’t so universal when the Mk3 were designed. I wonder if the issue is more the capacity of 10 showers or so (?) at Euston so they actively don’t want to acknowledge their existence, rather than financial matters which is presumably rather trivial income in all directions …

Does anyone know where in Euston the Sleeper lounge is going to be ? Have there been any construction photos ?

 

[JamieL]

I think the broader point is that when paying £150+ per night - easier access to a shower at the end of your journey doesn’t seem entirely unreasonable and is a fairly basic requirement of most people each morning - in a way it wasn’t so universal when the Mk3 were designed. I wonder if the issue is more the capacity of 10 showers or so (?) at Euston so they actively don’t want to acknowledge their existence, rather than financial matters which is presumably rather trivial income in all directions …

Does anyone know where in Euston the Sleeper lounge is going to be ? Have there been any construction photos ?

Agree on the financial side - I guess it is just a way of moderating use. There is a boxed off area on Platform 1 at Euston with CS branding so guess that might be where they are putting it. Will be interesting to see if nationalisation (from next week?) changes any of those plans.

On an aside, anyone know what happened to the Highlander last night? Didn't make it to Helensburgh apparently. Vested interest here as I am taking it south on Sunday evening!

 

[Morayshire]

On an aside, anyone know what happened to the Highlander last night? Didn't make it to Helensburgh apparently. Vested interest here as I am taking it south on Sunday evening!

West Highland Line has been disrupted all week with no trains to/from Fort William due to landslides/flooding closing the line near Roybridge. Adjacent road is also closed.

 

[JamieL]

West Highland Line has been disrupted all week with no trains to/from Fort William due to landslides/flooding closing the line near Roybridge. Adjacent road is also closed.

Is the whole service cancelled then? I thought I heard it was going to be routed into Oban? Last night it didn't seem to even make it to the Central belt stops let alone the West Highland line.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is the whole service cancelled then? I thought I heard it was going to be routed into Oban? Last night it didn't seem to even make it to the Central belt stops let alone the West Highland line.

They can only run half of it because one set is stuck in FW, at least.

 

[Morayshire]

Service: Fort William to London Euston Date: 18.06.23 Status: Rail service begins in Dundee Departure time: 19.50 from Fort William by road replacement Arrival time: 08.00 Reason: Closure of West Highland Line at Roy Bridge and Tulloch area following severe flooding and line damage in the area by Network Rail

Road Replacement Travel arrangements: We will transfer all guests from Fort William, Rannoch & Bridge of Orchy to Dundee at the scheduled departure time to join the Aberdeen service southbound to London Euston. Guests booked from Dalmuir, Garelochhead & Helensburgh Upper should travel to Edinburgh Waverley via Scotrail services using their Caledonian Sleeper ticket where they will join the train in their booked accommodation. There will be no change to guest arrival into London.

Compensation If guests wish to cancel a full 100% refund will be given, and all guests travelling are entitled to a refund of 50% of the ticket price. We will take care of everything when booked directly with us, the refund will be processed automatically and be returned to the card you used to make the purchase within 5-7 days.

Lifted from the sleeper website
https://www.sleeper.scot/service-alterations/

 

[xotGD]

I'm just struggling to get my head around the notion of Avanti first class passengers who get up in the morning, get dressed, travel to Euston and then take a shower. Do such people really exist?

Maybe the odd club DJ straight from an all night set, but who else would be using the facilities other than those disembarking from an overnight train?

 

[JamieL]

I'm just struggling to get my head around the notion of Avanti first class passengers who get up in the morning, get dressed, travel to Euston and then take a shower. Do such people really exist?

I doubt they do - the point I was making was about the influx of such passengers into the lounge. I note from my last visit, Euston now scans all tickets into the lounge as well - so there is obviously concern about freeloading.

 

[ajrm]

Classic customers are standard class. And as bowled out earlier in the thread, only club is marketed as a hotel experience. I believe standard class users of the CS can buy a shower token to use the facilities as Euston if they wish.

No—on my most recent visit there was no way in. And the showers at King's Cross were also unavailable as the weekly laundry delivery hadn't arrived so there were no towels!

It's worth remembering that shower facilities at other London termini were or remain open to all passengers on payment of a fee, and the restriction at Euston arose because the showers there happened to be in the first class lounge.

 

[Iskra]

I'm just struggling to get my head around the notion of Avanti first class passengers who get up in the morning, get dressed, travel to Euston and then take a shower. Do such people really exist?

Maybe the odd club DJ straight from an all night set, but who else would be using the facilities other than those disembarking from an overnight train?

Perhaps people who have come off or are going on long haul flights? I am always surprised how popular the Euston showers are when I’ve used them

 

[Davester50]

That is a Scottish Government press release from 2015 who were discussing Serco being offered the contract. The current service didn’t start until 2019 - can you find anything from the actual operator since then? If not, it rather proves my point. The CS is not marketed as a hotel on wheels - it is labelled as an "unique way to travel".

Moreover, apply some critical thinking to that throw away comment on the press release. If they are talking about the whole train, vice Club and Double (which probably had not even been designed in 2015), does that mean the seated coach is also a "hotel experience"? How about standing in a vestibule? Is that also a "hotel experience". Framed as such, you can see the absurdity in relying in a near decade old press release. Look at the current literature to understand the services offered.

What is, and what was are two different things, and the point still stands at the time the new sleepers were publicly announced by the actual franchise owner (the Scottish Government) they were to be a Hotel on Wheels experience.
Over promising and under delivering is common from politicians of all colours of course. But it's in black and white that's what the promise was.

On introduction, the news releases of the new trains, (and again here and here), which as far as I know Serco never publicly challenged the accuracy of, all referred to the train or fleet and not the cabins. Unless you can dig up proof they did complain about all the misleading reports, of course.

I've not disagreed the current marketing isn't a hotel on wheels, we're all still guests though. (The current reference to hotel for double is only it's mattresses manufacturer being found in royal palaces and some five star hotels. It's also the same mattress manufacturer as Classic...).

Anyway, I've another unique way of travelling coming up shortly.

 

[Bill57p9]

Road Replacement Travel arrangements: We will transfer all guests from Fort William, Rannoch & Bridge of Orchy to Dundee at the scheduled departure time to join the Aberdeen service southbound to London Euston. Guests booked from Dalmuir, Garelochhead & Helensburgh Upper should travel to Edinburgh Waverley via Scotrail services using their Caledonian Sleeper ticket where they will join the train in their booked accommodation. There will be no change to guest arrival into London.

Transporting passengers by coach from Fort William & Bridge of Orchy makes sense. They must have a number of bookings from Rannoch as that will take some logistics.

The CS disruption site is now stating that service will resume 19 June but with severe speed restrictions, hence rescheduled service.