FCC Notice of intention to prosecute

[Man30]

Hi All,

I have receive a letter from FCC stating "Notice of intention to prosecute".

Just to explain what happned,When I asked the person on the ticket windows for monthly season ticket from Barking (London zone 4)to Welwlyn garden city I was given ticket which says London zones 4-6 to welwyn garden city.

I was traveling on FCC from london zone 4 via Finsbury park to Welwlyn garden city, the Revenue protection Inspector approaced me near potters bars and to check my ticket and I was told that the ticket was invalid as Finsbury Park was London zone 2 and I was passing through it.

Even after expalining the thing to the inspector he treated me like a criminal and took my details and season ticket away.
I even offered to pay the panelty fare and but he refused.

Now I don't know what to do as from the letter I might be taken to court and would have criminal record and be fined upto £1000.

Please help.

 

[bb21]

Can you actually get from Barking to WGC entirely on rail without traversing at least Zone 3? I don't think you can, which in this case will suggest that the clerk made an error. Did he/she ask you any other question when he/she sold you the ticket? Where did you buy your season? at Barking? This will need to be addressed with the TOC responsible for the ticket office as well.

Also what exactly did the RPI ask you and what exactly did you tell him/her? Did he/she caution you?

 

[LexyBoy]

Welcome to the forum and bad luck with your run-in with FCC . Fortunately we have several regulars who should be able to give you some decent legal advice (which you will definitely need). My tuppenceworth:

Do you still have the receipt given to you when you bought your ticket, or a copy of the ticket itself? Either of these should make it possible to identify exactly when and where you bought your ticket, which might possibly help your case.

There is no question that your ticket was not valid, so your defence must rest on being mis-sold the original ticket. I presume you are working in Barking or WGC – in which case you should be able to show that you made the same journey regularly and weren’t just trying to get away with a journey beyond the validity of your ticket. A letter from your employer would probably help in this regard also. (NB: I am not a legal expert and admitting that you repeatedly made invalid journeys may only make things worse!).

If you can prove that you asked for a Barking to WGC ticket, your case should be pretty good, since it is impossible to do that journey on a Z4-6 – WGC ticket (edit:except by bus). It could be argued that you should have checked your ticket before leaving the ticket office – but whether you would know it’s not valid would depend on your knowledge of ticket validity and the London zones system.

 

[MikeWh]

Welcome to the forum.

Can you advise what your exact route from Barking to Finsbury Park was. Looking at the map it would seem that you should have been sold a minimum of a zone 2-6 to Potters Bar ticket. If you had gone via Kings Cross then it would need to be all zones. If money is an issue then you can just do it with zones 3-6 by walking between Harringay Green Lanes and Harringay. There is no way that zones 4-6 would be sufficient from Barking unless you were doing most of the journey by bus!

I think you need to go to Barking again and see if you can get the same person there to corroborate your story. Then respond when you get the letter from FCC.

 

[Shrub Hill]

citizens advice mate, that's where i would be heading!

 

[Man30]

Exactly that’s the whole point I wanted to prove. I am not aware of any route to travel from barking to Welwyn garden city without passing Zone 3.
I bought the season ticket from Barking and I told (the clerk )her that I would be travelling via Finsbury park taking Overground from barking. And she didn’t ask me any questions and straight away told me the fare and I agreed for it without any questions.

I explained everything to the RPI but he didn’t listen to me and blamed me that I would have asked for such kind of ticket.
He did caution me and took away my ticket and address details , that’s it and now I get this letter.

What should I do ???

 

[MikeWh]

If you're looking for a magic list of things to do that will make this go away then I'm afraid we can't provide that. You've had some advice already. As I suggested, go to Barking and see if you can get the same clerk to agree what happened. I think Barking is a TfL station so maybe the clerk wasn't clear about National Rail routes. Going to Citizen's advice is also a good idea. You will need to respond to the letter though. If you can get a statement from someone at Barking that they made a mistake then FCC should treat your case sympathetically. There really isn't much more I can advise, other than possibly finding a good lawyer/solicitor who is expert in railway ticketing.

Unfortunately there are people who would buy the ticket you have in the hope of getting away with it. You therefore need to convince FCC that you aren't one of them.

 

[LexyBoy]

Exactly that’s the whole point I wanted to prove. I am not aware of any route to travel from barking to Welwyn garden city without passing Zone 3.

This makes it sound like you were aware the ticket wasn't valid - if so, then it makes no difference whether you were mis-sold the ticket or specifically asked for it.

I would advice a visit to the CAB and finding a solicitor who knows about railway law. I would, as MikeWh suggests, talk to the staff at Barking and see if you can get a statement from them, and write to FCC outlining your case, stating nothing more than necessary. Certainly don't admit to knowing the ticket wasn't valid!

 

[Ferret]

Hi All,

I have receive a letter from FCC stating "Notice of intention to prosecute".

Just to explain what happned,When I asked the person on the ticket windows for monthly season ticket from Barking (London zone 4)to Welwlyn garden city I was given ticket which says London zones 4-6 to welwyn garden city.

I was traveling on FCC from london zone 4 via Finsbury park to Welwlyn garden city, the Revenue protection Inspector approaced me near potters bars and to check my ticket and I was told that the ticket was invalid as Finsbury Park was London zone 2 and I was passing through it.

Even after expalining the thing to the inspector he treated me like a criminal and took my details and season ticket away.
I even offered to pay the panelty fare and but he refused.

Now I don't know what to do as from the letter I might be taken to court and would have criminal record and be fined upto £1000.

Please help.

When he took your ticket away, did he issue you any form of receipt? Procedure dictates that if you withdraw any ticket, you *must* issue a receipt in the form of a zerofare ticket to complete your journey. Were you interviewed under caution?

 

[Man30]

Thanks all for you advice I’ll try and get hold of the staff which sold me the ticket and also try to speak to the CAB.

Ferret – The RPI didn’t gave me any kind of receipt , when I asked all that I got was a photo copy of my ticket along with his ID and signature.
I had to buy new ticket to travel. Yes I was interviewed under caution but all he asked me was where did I start my journey and end my journey and did I intended to avoid the fare.

 

[Mojo]

As I suggested, go to Barking and see if you can get the same clerk to agree what happened. I think Barking is a TfL station so maybe the clerk wasn't clear about National Rail routes.

Barking station's ticket office is run and staffed by c2c.

 

[shinkansen1966]

I bought the season ticket from Barking and I told (the clerk )her that I would be travelling via Finsbury park taking Overground from barking. And she didn’t ask me any questions and straight away told me the fare and I agreed for it without any questions.

Looks like she (the Barking booking clerk) will be your key defence witness in any court proceedings. Good luck.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Barking station's ticket office is run and staffed by c2c.

In that case, go to C2C and get their rota to find out who was on duty at Barking station when your ticket was sold.

 

[Ferret]

Thanks all for you advice I’ll try and get hold of the staff which sold me the ticket and also try to speak to the CAB.

Ferret – The RPI didn’t gave me any kind of receipt , when I asked all that I got was a photo copy of my ticket along with his ID and signature.
I had to buy new ticket to travel. Yes I was interviewed under caution but all he asked me was where did I start my journey and end my journey and did I intended to avoid the fare.

Where did you buy the new ticket from and to?

 

[Man30]

Just one thing comming to my mind...is there any way I can avoid court proceedings say by paying penalty fare ?
Also in reply to the FCC letter should I mention that I am ready to pay penalty fare ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Ferret- I bought the ticket from WGC back home to Barking that day and next day bought season ticket from Barking (London zone 2-6) to WGC.

 

[Ferret]

Just one thing comming to my mind...is there any way I can avoid court proceedings say by paying penalty fare ?
Also in reply to the FCC letter should I mention that I am ready to pay penalty fare ?

Hmmmm, no on all counts! If things are as you say and you were sold an incorrect ticket then why would you want to pay a penalty fare?! If what you're telling us is true, I'd say you stand a good chance of being able to construct a good defence on this one.

Now, am I to take it he got off with you at Welwyn and that's where he photocopied your ticket to give that, then kept the original? That I guess would act as a receipt, so my initial thought that the RPI had made a fatal mistake in selling you a new ticket has gone out of the window. But still, by all means start talking to c2c at Barking and consult a lawyer.

 

[bb21]

In that case, go to C2C and get their rota to find out who was on duty at Barking station when your ticket was sold.

No need. Just check the photocopy of your ticket that you were given. There should be a code on there identifying the issuing clerk. Don't post it on here. Barking ticket office should be able to identify the person straight away.

 

[First class]

If you do want to settle it (either because you've missed some info out or you can't be a*sed) then I would wait for them to contact you.

Usually the TOC will try and prosecute for 5(3b), but usually ask for an "administrative penalty" of between £50 and £100. Do not offer less than what they want because they will just issue a summons. E.g. if they want £75, don't send £50.

However, to be able to clear it that way, they will probably ask you to also sign a "reprimand", (for a "first offence"). That is just a "written warning" and not recordable at all, but could be referred to in court if you were "caught" again. If you refuse to sign it and pay the full admin fee then they will just issue a summons.

You could always try your chances in court..... however, some legal advisors often underestimate the seriousness of the case, and have a poor understanding of the laws surrounding the railways. To be honest is is questionable (for me anyway) whether a solicitor is even required for this type of case as it is so easy to defend/prove based on the bare facts.

Prosecutor: Did you have a valid ticket?
You: No, but that's what I was sold........
Prosecutor: It is your responsibility to have a valid ticket, as defined in the NRCoC. You should check. Why didn't you?
You: ???????????

For anyone else in this situation with any TOC, I would not recommend contacting them first. I also have discovered today the procedure of how a TOC makes the 5(3a/b/c) or similar offence a recordable one, (i.e. listed as a Dishonesty/Fraud conviction on a Criminal Record). It definitely is recorded on conviction.

I'm not saying to do the above, obviously it is entirely down to you what you decide to do, however, that is my recommendation if you do want to go down that road...

Reference - Section 5 of Regulation of Railways Act 1889:

If any person—

(a)Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof; or

(b)Having paid his fare for a certain distance, knowingly and wilfully proceeds by train beyond that distance without previously paying the additional fare for the additional distance, and with intent to avoid payment thereof; or

(c)Having failed to pay his fare, gives in reply to a request by an officer of a railway company a false name or address,

The important thing here is your answer to the Inspector's question "Do you agree to be interviewed?". I will leave it for you to guess what your answer should be. An interview can lead to self incrimination.

99% sure that this "notice to prosecute" asks for an administrative penalty and/or to sign a reprimand.

 

[b0b]

Prosecutor: Did you have a valid ticket?

You: It was my belief I was sold a valid ticket for the journey.

 

[First class]

You: It was my belief I was sold a valid ticket for the journey.

Prosecutor: You were sold a valid ticket. How you decide to use that ticket, including the route is up to you, but using it incorrectly could incur a penalty. Once again, it is well defined that it is your responsibility to check that you have been issued with the correct ticket. By using the ticket, you automatically accept the rights and responsibilities defined in the NRCoC, Railway Byelaws and Statute Law.

(before anyone gets annoyed with me, this is just me providing an example of what could be said).

 

[b0b]

Prosecutor: You were sold a valid ticket. How you decide to use that ticket, including the route is up to you, but using it incorrectly could incur a penalty. Once again, it is well defined that it is your responsibility to check that you have been issued with the correct ticket. By using the ticket, you automatically accept the rights and responsibilities defined in the NRCoC, Railway Byelaws and Statute Law.

(before anyone gets annoyed with me, this is just me providing an example of what could be said).

I explained the route I intended to take to the ticket clerk and asked for a valid ticket. Therefore it was my belief I had a valid ticket for my journey.

obviously IANAL

 

[First class]

I explained the route I intended to take to the ticket clerk and asked for a valid ticket. Therefore it was my belief I had a valid ticket for my journey.

obviously IANAL

The OP does not state what exactly he asked for, however, my response to the Defence would be:

a) If it was a new line of defence, I would request adjournment and make further investigation into your claims.

or b)

Prosecutor: I put it to you that you are being dishonest with the court. The retailer signed a statement to the effect that she would only issue this ticket if this had specifically been requested by the yourself. Although she does not remember you in particular, due to the amount of customers she is expected to serve each day. Can you suggest a reason why an experienced retailer would make such a mistake?

or c)

Prosecutor: That is interesting. We have investigated thoroughly and can determine that you purchased this ticket from a self-service machine. Therefore you selected this ticket yourself without any prompt from the retail staff you "claim" told you that it was valid. Is it not true that you are lying under oath?

(fyi--that actually happens!!!)

 

[b0b]

(c) would be a bitch, and i'd expect you'd lose, as they're going to believe that it is you that is being dishonest. You'd have to be in the know about the codes on the ticket to prove that they are being dishonest.

(b) objection

(a) hopefully means it goes away


though if i was going to court over this, i might try and find the c2c clerk and attempt to buy the same journey and see what happens, if you get the wrong ticket again, that would be useful

 

[bb21]

(b) Can you be 100% sure that the retailer never makes a mistake?

(c) I concede. Sorry

 

[b0b]

(b) Can you be 100% sure that the retailer never makes a mistake?

Then you're going to get the "its your responsibility to check the ticket" line so I believe the best way to deal with (b) is to object to the question on the grounds that you are being asked to speculate about a third party.

 

[bb21]

Then you're going to get the "its your responsibility to check the ticket" line

But then how many people really understand the complexity of the railway fares system. Oh dear. I don't think I'm getting anywhere.

Anyway even if the clerk at Barking station was traced, what if she refuses to accept responsibility? If she insists on a version of event that is different to the one the OP gave, then it would be your words against mine. Would CCTV help? Would the footage still be available after so long?

 

[Ferret]

Prosecutor: You were sold a valid ticket. How you decide to use that ticket, including the route is up to you, but using it incorrectly could incur a penalty. Once again, it is well defined that it is your responsibility to check that you have been issued with the correct ticket. By using the ticket, you automatically accept the rights and responsibilities defined in the NRCoC, Railway Byelaws and Statute Law.

(before anyone gets annoyed with me, this is just me providing an example of what could be said).

Of course, at this point you could bring in the NRCoC clause regarding what action will be taken if you use another route for which your ticket is not valid (an excess fare would be charged).

 

[First class]

But then how many people really understand the complexity of the railway fares system. Oh dear. I don't think I'm getting anywhere.

Anyway even if the clerk at Barking station was traced, what if she refuses to accept responsibility? If she insists on a version of event that is different to the one the OP gave, then it would be your words against mine. Would CCTV help? Would the footage still be available after so long?

I wouldn't pull footage acting as the prosecution if I knew you had used a booking office. However, a defence lawyer might, but probably wouldn't achieve much. Shows you buying a ticket, walking away. Might incriminate you further if you don't even glance at your tickets.
Footage isn't kept for that long, i.e. by the time your case is entered on to the Prosecution Database for FCC, it's long gone.

The odds are already stacked against you. You have one or more RPIs with signed statements, your own interview - used as evidence against you, caught with an invalid ticket and probably freely admit it, and potentially even an additional statement from the retailer, as well as awkward questions from the prosecutor which could go either for/against you depending on how good you are under pressure.

This case strikes me as odd because FCC is a Penalty Fare operator. Something has been said/done to make the RPI believe INTENT to commit the offence is involved and go straight to MG11 instead of PF. If there is any possible hint that that intent exists, just settle out of court on their terms. Even something like "I thought it was odd or it was cheaper than I expected" can be useful in prosecuting you. The most common reason is that 5(3c) has been breached.

 

[bb21]

Of course, at this point you could bring in the NRCoC clause regarding what action will be taken if you use another route for which your ticket is not valid (an exces fare would be charged).

And I guess that would be one of the lines the OP could use? Technically it is a valid ticket, travelling by London Buses, and the ticket covers the entire journey. So venturing into other zones = off-route = excess fare / penalty fare. Certainly does not equate to intention to defraud the railways, so no prosecution.

Thinking along those lines, I suddenly feel that the OP's got a good winnable case.

 

[b0b]

Even something like "I thought it was odd or it was cheaper than I expected" can be useful in prosecuting you. The most common reason is that 5(3c) has been breached.

Yep, that's what I was trying to point out to bb21.

If your defence is: I asked an experienced retailer to sell me a ticket that is valid for the journey I described and I had no reason to believe it wasn't valid, you can't concede an inch on doubting the validity of the ticket.

Even if you get through all that, you're still in for an uphill battle.

 

[bb21]

Guess that answers a few questions I had in my mind