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The evolution of the English language over time

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Mcr Warrior

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Believe 'Window' has Old Norse origins and means "the wind's eye" or something similar. Presumably, other than by using wooden shutters or heavy curtains, they didn't have anything to keep out the breeze, back in the day, if you wanted to look out of your castle or dwelling place.
 
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Calthrop

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But in the intervals of pillaging the Latin-speakers, the Norsemen might also have pinched their word for the wonderful new letting-light-in device...
 

Mcr Warrior

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But in the intervals of pillaging the Latin-speakers, the Norsemen might also have pinched their word for the wonderful new letting-light-in device...
"Wind's eye" (= window) seems reasonably self-explanatory for what would just have been a hole in the wall.
 

Calthrop

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It's a fine word -- but everybody else seems to have fallen for the Latin one !
 

swt_passenger

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One which tickles me, is "window" -- ffenestr (or something very like that) in Welsh: from the Latin fenestra -- as seems to be the case in most Western European languages -- even German (Fenster); just English appears to insist on bucking the trend with its w-word.
Odd that the double glazing trade approvals body uses Fenestration in its name. Is this a case of a word being in the normal English dictionary but hardly anyone, (except maybe architects), ever uses it?
 

takno

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One which tickles me, is "window" -- ffenestr (or something very like that) in Welsh: from the Latin fenestra -- as seems to be the case in most Western European languages -- even German (Fenster); just English appears to insist on bucking the trend with its w-word.
Vindu in Norwegian
 

AM9

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On the OP's topic of should've etcetera, I have a slightly different angle. When my daughter was in her mid-teens she had a (sort-of) boyfriend for a while who was born British but because his parents were in international jobs throughout his school years, was educated in various 'English' schools around the world. His knowledge and English was good and clear with a wide vocabulary, but for some reason, never used the spoken apostrophe to replace 'have', nor the negative not (as in don't, won't) it was always "do not","will not" - even "can" "not", and similar which resulted in a strange stilted (almost wooden) lilt to his speech. I preume this was because he rarely heard native english speech which in my experience was taught at school how to use the apostrophe correctly, including the actual pronunciation. Should've was pronounced 'should erv' etc. with the second syllable being very short. I have been under the impression that those who say 'should of' may incorrectly believe that it is lazy speech, but unfortunately they picked the wrong word to say in full (presumably because they were not taught how the apostrophe works in those words). It's a bit like those who insist in pronouncing the letter 'H' as 'haich' with an emphasised first letter, probably because they think that it is proper and sounds better than lazily dropping the 'h' sound at the beginning of a word, even wheb the word is that for the letter aitch.
 

Calthrop

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Odd that the double glazing trade approvals body uses Fenestration in its name. Is this a case of a word being in the normal English dictionary but hardly anyone, (except maybe architects), ever uses it?

Or historians (the word "negativised") -- people being chucked out of the window in Prague :smile: ...
 

Broucek

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One which tickles me, is "window" -- ffenestr (or something very like that) in Welsh: from the Latin fenestra -- as seems to be the case in most Western European languages -- even German (Fenster); just English appears to insist on bucking the trend with its w-word.
I was told by a tour guide at the Globe Theatre that the etymology of "window" is from "wind hole" - i.e. from before they had glass in them!
 

urbophile

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Odd that the double glazing trade approvals body uses Fenestration in its name. Is this a case of a word being in the normal English dictionary but hardly anyone, (except maybe architects), ever uses it?
Defenestration can be a useful way of getting rid of opponents.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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I love this topic! I studied English Language at A Level (did very nicely, thank you ;)) and Language Development over Time was a wonderful part of the course. Referring to the original discussion of “could of” and “could have,” people writing the former is primarily due to the written forms of the English language evolving closer to the spoken.
 

urbophile

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It's a bit like those who insist in pronouncing the letter 'H' as 'haich' with an emphasised first letter, probably because they think that it is proper and sounds better than lazily dropping the 'h' sound at the beginning of a word, even wheb the word is that for the letter aitch.
isn't that the Irish pronunciation?
 

Calthrop

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isn't that the Irish pronunciation?

Have heard that in Northern Ireland -- where in all manner of weirdly petty things, Protestants do it one way and Catholics the other -- per convention, one crowd there says "haich", and the other, "aich". I think it's Catholics who do the former and Protestants the latter, but am not 100% sure.
 

prod_pep

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Have heard that in Northern Ireland -- where in all manner of weirdly petty things, Protestants do it one way and Catholics the other -- per convention, one crowd there says "haich", and the other, "aich". I think it's Catholics who do the former and Protestants the latter, but am not 100% sure.
That's right. The 'haitch' pronunciation is favoured by Catholics in Northern Ireland, and not surprisingly as 'haitch' is the usual pronunciation of the letter in the Republic. Due to the significant Irish presence in Liverpool, you hear 'haitch' a lot around here; it will always be aitch to me.

Defenestration has always struck me as such an oddly specific word against the myriad of situations for which we don't have a suitable single word in English.
 

Sm5

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On a slightly different note I do find how food travels interesting.

I recall having dinner in Germany and tucking into a creamy white rye soup, which is the exact same as Zurek in Poland.
when I mentioned it was also in Polish the readily disagreed and said it was theirs.

but Pollo Milanese, Wiener Schnitzel and Kotley Schabowy are all pretty much the exact same breaded pork or chicken cutlet which travelled with the language, making it impossible to really identify who owns it… even Chicken Kiev and Chicken Cordon Bleu arent that far removed from the above…as can be expected, the Americans claim they invented it as “chicken fried steak” in Texas.
 
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Bevan Price

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You have to distinguish between growth and cancer. Language should evolve to meet changing needs, but "should of" is just lack of skill and adds nothing to the language's power.

"You should have eaten your dinner" "But I have eaten my dinner"
vs.
"You should of eaten your dinner" "But I of eaten my dinner"
Beware. That might become "I've 8 me dinner....."
 

Calthrop

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With a precedent first began quite a number of years ago by "Toys 4 Us"

I'd always mentally rendered that name, as a deliberately quirky written / printed-word version of "Toys Are Us": with the "are" represented by a -- just-for-fun -- backwards, capital R. Have I been getting it wrong all these years?
 

Mcr Warrior

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I'd always mentally rendered that name, as a deliberately quirky written / printed-word version of "Toys Are Us": with the "are" represented by a -- just-for-fun -- backwards, capital R. Have I been getting it wrong all these years?
No, you're right. The company's logo featured a stylised backwards "R" ("Я") to give the impression that a child had written it. Pic of the logo on a store frontage below...

Toys R Us.jpg
 

Calthrop

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Ah ! thanks. With no disrespect to @XenophonPCDGS; but feel relieved that it is, as I had thought it to be. (Incidentally; and with no relevance at all, but -- in the Russian alphabet, the backwards-R symbol represents the sound "ya"; which is also the Russian word for "I / myself".)
 

DerekC

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The purpose of language is to communicate, and somehow we have to tread the narrow path between demanding that everyone use the language as it was when we were at school (a long time ago in my case) and just accepting anything and trying to make sense of it. Two things will cheer me up. First, I am going to re-read Bill Bryson's "Mother Tongue". Second, over the next few weeks I am going to read thirty-something project reports from young-ish industry professionals. They probably have GCSE English at some level but might have struggled with it and for some English is their second language. I know that the vast majority will be well written and easy to follow.
 

AlterEgo

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One which tickles me, is "window" -- ffenestr (or something very like that) in Welsh: from the Latin fenestra -- as seems to be the case in most Western European languages -- even German (Fenster); just English appears to insist on bucking the trend with its w-word.
Window is from Norse vindr and auga, meaning "wind eye".

I hope all the language purists will revert to calling it a vindrauga to correct for the mistakes of others.
 

Calthrop

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Window is from Norse vindr and auga, meaning "wind eye".

I hope all the language purists will revert to calling it a vindrauga to correct for the mistakes of others.

Let everyone call things whatever they want to -- in the languages of some, anyway, of the Slavic countries, which ancient Rome basically never got to -- "window" is "okno", Really, it's the German word which strikes me as particularly odd: although the Romans didn't make much headway in Germany, German has taken to a version of the Latin word. And yet English hasn't -- well, these anomalies are fun !
 

DelW

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Not so much taught as deliberately not taught. How many people could actually describe the different components of English grammar? As for spelling...
Someone who specified or made this sign on the southbound M6 evidently doesn't know the difference between a noun and an adjective. Though Streetview shows that its predecessor (prior to June 2021) was correct.
Screenshot_20230615-215119_Maps.jpg
 

Calthrop

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Someone who specified or made this sign on the southbound M6 evidently doesn't know the difference between a noun and an adjective. Though Streetview shows that its predecessor (prior to June 2021) was correct.
View attachment 137422

Thought passes through mind -- was the person responsible, perhaps a fan of Bernard Cornwell's "Sharpe" books; with the word "Peninsular" on the brain, but with a not-too-good grasp of grammar :smile: ?
 

takno

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Someone who specified or made this sign on the southbound M6 evidently doesn't know the difference between a noun and an adjective. Though Streetview shows that its predecessor (prior to June 2021) was correct.
View attachment 137422
Ridiculous. Any fool knows the correct plural is peninsulae
 

61653 HTAFC

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One that bugs me more than it should, and which crops up on internet fora such as this one, is the abbreviation for the Latin term "et cetera" being typed as "ect" instead of the correct "etc."
Related: whilst modern devices have rendered "txt spk" redundant, the AI that deals with predictive text and spell check has come on leaps and bounds over the last decade but still struggles with periods used to indicate abbreviations such as the above-mentioned "etc.". If using etc. in the middle of a sentence (which may not be grammatically correct, but I'd consider it acceptable in casual communication) the device will always assume that a new sentence follows and will capitalise the first letter of the next word.

Also there's a special place in hell for the likes of k d lang and e.e. cummings, who insist on spelling their names with no capitalisation at all! <(
 
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