Declassified First Class on GWR

[twitch7443]

Good Evening everyone!

Quick question: Who decides whether the first class section of a train is declassified? is this up to the train manager or management?

It's not uncommon for GWR to short form some busy PAD trains from WSM and it's shocking to me that they'd rather harm customer satisfaction - than just allow more people to sit - trains are even losing time when people can't get on fast enough at Bath.

Was just a quick thought as it's typically been declassified on the other rammed services I've ended up on.

 

[LowLevel]

Good Evening everyone!

Quick question: Who decides whether the first class section of a train is declassified? is this up to the train manager or management?

It's not uncommon for GWR to short form some busy PAD trains from WSM and it's shocking to me that they'd rather harm customer satisfaction - than just allow more people to sit - trains are even losing time when people can't get on fast enough at Bath.

Was just a quick thought as it's typically been declassified on the other rammed services I've ended up on.

It's a toss up between accommodating a handful of extra passengers and having to refund the entire cohort of their first class travellers the difference in fares. It's up to the train manager but the only time it should be done in my opinion is if the train is literally leaving people behind, due to exceptional disruption. There is always the choice to pay to upgrade. Probably an unpopular view but it is what it is.

 

[RPI]

@LowLevel is spot on, you have the option to reserve a seat on IET services (the ones with 1st class on them) and also the option to pay the premium to travel in 1st class, on busy trains I will more than likely upgrade the odd vulnerable passenger who may be standing, on GWR the guard or any other member of staff has the authority to do this by completing a "back on track" voucher, but as said by LowLevel, declassification should only really be done in exceptional circumstances.

 

[driverd]

It's definitely a toss up between upsetting one group and upsetting another.

If you declassify, 100% of first class customers are p*ssed off (and rightfully so). Further, if you do declassify, maybe an extra 5% of standard class customers get a seat, whilst the remainder still feel p*ssed off at how busy the train is, get a seat or not.

Personal preference when I worked as a TM was never to declassify and upsell first upgrades.

 

[JamieL]

What I find annoying about GWR is, when leaving Paddington, they don't formally declassify First but will normally let anyone sit there without checks. I regularly travel to Bristol from Paddington and First is often filled to the brim with Reading commuters. Often loud and unruly as well. On the rare occasions a guard comes through and shouts "tickets please", the carriage empties apart from one of two genuine First Class ticket holders.

It doesn't bother me a jot about travelling in a full carriage- but First Class ticket holders pay quite a bit extra for marginally better travelling conditions and the possibility of a drink. Freeloaders, who.often relish their freeloading, tend to make it worse than standard and guarantees no drink will be provided as the staff simply won't emerge when the compartmentis that full!

 

[Towers]

It's definitely a toss up between upsetting one group and upsetting another.

If you declassify, 100% of first class customers are p*ssed off (and rightfully so). Further, if you do declassify, maybe an extra 5% of standard class customers get a seat, whilst the remainder still feel p*ssed off at how busy the train is, get a seat or not.

Personal preference when I worked as a TM was never to declassify and upsell first upgrades.

But at least if staff declassify it it’ll be logged and those with first class tix can obtain a refund, as opposed to paying extra to sit in a supposedly first class carriage full of people who haven’t paid, and with no trolley service happening. Far too often a train fills up and first is just abandoned; neither policed nor declassified which is the worst of both worlds.

I was on an EMR 222 a while back which filled up. The TM eventually ushered a number of standard class standees into the available empty seats in first, no doubt with the best of intentions but that’s unacceptable to those who’ve paid for the first class product.

 

[BJames]

But at least if staff declassify it it’ll be logged and those with first class tix can obtain a refund, as opposed to paying extra to sit in a supposedly first class carriage full of people who haven’t paid, and with no trolley service happening. Far too often a train fills up and first is just abandoned; neither policed nor declassified which is the worst of both worlds.

I was on an EMR 222 a while back which filled up. The TM eventually ushered a number of standard class standees into the available empty seats in first, no doubt with the best of intentions but that’s unacceptable to those who’ve paid for the first class product.

TM of a 10 car EMR Sunday morning service the other week declassified the composite coach of one of the two sets, but the other three coaches remained first class. This sort of made sense because a lot of work was done by the two members of staff to spread the load of people into both sets, as to start with the rear set had plenty of seats free while the front was full and standing.

I agree with @LowLevel's approach above, I think if people are being left behind then it is sensible to consider, otherwise upgrading vulnerable people (or encouraging others to give up seats for vulnerable people perhaps). It devalues the product significantly if it is declassified at the first sign of any crowds bigger than usual. Indeed, one of the perks across many TOCs is supposed to be quieter carriages with the guarantee of a seat and at seat service.

 

[driverd]

But at least if staff declassify it it’ll be logged and those with first class tix can obtain a refund, as opposed to paying extra to sit in a supposedly first class carriage full of people who haven’t paid, and with no trolley service happening. Far too often a train fills up and first is just abandoned; neither policed nor declassified which is the worst of both worlds.

I would entirely agree. I think staff morale is whole different conversation, but yes, if you're going to keep first as first, you definitely have to police it.

It's a difficult discussion, sometimes, to kick someone out - but ultimately if the operator wants to offer a premium service there certainly has to be a degree of exclusivity and premium service - I entirely agree.

I was on an EMR 222 a while back which filled up. The TM eventually ushered a number of standard class standees into the available empty seats in first, no doubt with the best of intentions but that’s unacceptable to those who’ve paid for the first class product.

Again, I would generally agree; though notwithstanding that the TM is authorised to use discretion and offer complementary upgrades, for whatever reason.

 

[Miken]

I had this problem last Friday, due to catch the 1812 Reading to Paddington on a 1st advance (part of a longer journey). Frustratingly I watched several 10-car sets depart to London before mine, all with plenty 1st class seats free. The platform signage did say the train was full to standing and there were no seat reservations; it was a 5 car set. On boarding I found 1st class fully declassified , passengers sprawled all over the floor so I stood all the way. I wrote to GWR and have been promised £3.77 in compensation (I believe to be the fare difference for that leg). So whilst prompt in their reply it was with this very meagre compensation. Interestingly, chatting to the Train Manager, he was also very frustrated with the situation, saying "it happens far too often" and I got a genuine apology which was much better than "we are sorry for any inconvenience caused" which is not an apology at all - just a sop hurled at passengers probably many many times in a day across the UK network.

 

[alastair]

Far too often a train fills up and first is just abandoned; neither policed nor declassified which is the worst of both worlds.

Absolutely spot on. this happened to me recently travelling from Totnes to Reading (I had a Seatfrog upgrade) and there were only 5 cars (booked to be 10). Getting on at Totnes I was lucky to get a seat. By Exeter, the TM and all the several catering staff had disappeared to their retreat in the front coach and apart from the normal announcements no reference or apology whatever was made for the conditions on board where people were sitting on the floor all down the train and the vestibules were so rammed it was impossible to even get to the toilets. In fairness to GWR I applied for and received a refund for my upgrade although this did take 7 weeks.

 

[Annetts key]

Okay, I normally try to stay well away from debates such as this, as there is absolutely no answer (*see below) that will be okay for everyone while the TOCs offer a first class area.

* Apart from the TOCs always running sufficient trains such that there is never any overcrowding, be that a high enough frequency or longer trains, but as this is very unlikely to happen, especially under the current DaFT arrangements.

However, TM, Guards, ticket examiners, catering staff or other train crew are not police. So, if the standard class area does become full and standing, I fully understand why they would choose not to try to walk though the train. And why they may be less concerned if some non-first class passengers use the first class area. Especially if there is only one member of train crew in that part of the train.

My (possibly controversial) solution is to actually reduce the amount of first class accommodation to match the normal number of first class passengers. Then there would not be any significant number of empty first class seats.

People on these forums often go on about trains just carting “fresh air” air around, but from my experience, it’s rare that you see a first class area completely full. And on some services, it’s sometimes only 10% full. Now, this may well be different in other areas, or on popular services. So, does the industry actually publish figures?

 

[Flying Snail]

My (possibly controversial) solution is to actually reduce the amount of first class accommodation to match the normal number of first class passengers. Then there would not be any significant number of empty first class seats.

People on these forums often go on about trains just carting “fresh air” air around, but from my experience, it’s rare that you see a first class area completely full. And on some services, it’s sometimes only 10% full. Now, this may well be different in other areas, or on popular services. So, does the industry actually publish figures?

First class has already been reduced in size or is due to be with replacement stock on nearly all operators still offering it.

1st class with lots of unused capacity is normal on many trains, however the majority of these will be trains with available seats in standard class as well so it is of no benefit to declassify or transfer use.

As has already been said, one of the benefits that make paying extra for 1st class is the better chance of getting a seat on a busy to full service and the likelihood of having low occupancy off peak.

A lot of the issues mentioned above are down to short-forming of GWR trains, re-allocating the already small 1st class to standard on a rammed 5 car IET will not solve that.

 

[Deepgreen]

I very much sympathise with the plight of staff regarding first class - it is hard to police effectively these days while carrying out other duties and more and more people feel entitled to sit there if they can't get a seat in standard (and more and more people in society at large just simply feel entitled, full stop). As some will know, my line (North Downs), run by GWR, has been laughable in its on/off policy regarding first class and the lack of provision/labelling when it is in force. The staff have no idea what is going on and cannot be expected to do their jobs properly as a result.

 

[Revilo]

The thing that gets me is the inconsistency of the railways. They’ll come down hard (or threaten to) on some granny who makes a mistake with their advanced ticket on the wrong train, yet in practice many rules are completely unenforced. Examples include informally declassifying first, not removing standard ticket holders from first, or being ambiguous as to the status of first class eg Turbos on the North Downs Line. There is clearly a market for a premium product, but it has to be enforced.

 

[Towers]

However, TM, Guards, ticket examiners, catering staff or other train crew are not police. So, if the standard class area does become full and standing, I fully understand why they would choose not to try to walk though the train. And why they may be less concerned if some non-first class passengers use the first class area. Especially if there is only one member of train crew in that part of the train.

A very fair point. However, the answer in this instance is then to declassify first class, as opposed to just not bothering with it at all. It’s a basic, easily arranged courtesy which at least acknowledges that those who have paid for a specific product have not received it.

 

[yorkie]

If the train is leaving people behind, then First should be declassified; no question.

Similarly if you have two (or more!) trains combined into one, and you have many passengers who have reserved seats or were seated who would otherwise have to stand, then clearly acommodating some of those in any spare 1st class seats makes sense, especially if some of those passengers are already delayed.

If the train is simply busy then it shouldn't be done.

This can be decided by Control but a Train Manager has the discretion to implement this themselves.

However an alternative to full declassification is that passengers can be selectively given complimentary upgrades; for example let's say a train was very busy, but not leaving people behind, and some passengers approached the Train Manager who had either a particular need to be seated or had reserved seats which were not available (e.g. if the reservation system was down), if there are spare seats in 1st, the TM has the discretion to provide a complimentary upgrade, so that they can be seated.

I remember reading of an incident in which there was a seat dispute described by (former GWR Guard) @Flamingo , where one of the passengers was rude and the other was polite. The rude one was told they could keep their (standard class) seat, while the polite one was upgraded to 1st. An excellent way to handle that situation, I thought.

 

[Tester]

I remember reading of an incident in which there was a seat dispute described by (former GWR Guard) @Flamingo , where one of the passengers was rude and the other was polite. The rude one was told they could keep their (standard class) seat, while the polite one was upgraded to 1st. An excellent way to handle that situation, I thought.

Not rail, but I had exactly that on a BA 747 from Toronto to London many moons ago.

Double booked in economy, and the occupant made very clear she wasn't moving. The flight attendant said, "Come with me, sir", and took me upstairs to Business.

Moral of the story.....!

 

[Surreytraveller]

Good Evening everyone!

Quick question: Who decides whether the first class section of a train is declassified? is this up to the train manager or management?

Is a train manager not management, then?

 

[Towers]

Train Manager is a term used at some TOCs for guards. As is Conductor.

Is a train manager not management, then?

 

[RailWonderer]

People on these forums often go on about trains just carting “fresh air” air around, but from my experience, it’s rare that you see a first class area completely full. And on some services, it’s sometimes only 10% full. Now, this may well be different in other areas, or on popular services. So, does the industry actually publish figures?

It's not rare at all. Most mornings the 09:00 and 10:00 off KX are mostly full in first, as are a lot of XC services on the weekend and Avanti services to London in the morning and up to Manchester and Scotland in the evening.

As for GWR both times I bought a first upgrade (which are some of the most affordable on the network) I was checked out of Paddington both times. The one time I wasn't checked it was because of Milwall supporters standing in the aisles and in the vestibules when we were in first.

 

[Towers]

It's not rare at all. Most mornings the 09:00 and 10:00 off KX are mostly full in first, as are a lot of XC services on the weekend and Avanti services to London in the morning and up to Manchester and Scotland in the evening.

As for GWR both times I bought a first upgrade (which are some of the most affordable on the network) I was checked out of Paddington both times. The one time I wasn't checked it was because of Milwall supporters standing in the aisles and in the vestibules when we were in first.

The pertinent question is whether a majority of passengers are holding full fare tickets, or if the train is full of people on cheap advances, Seatfrog upgrades for 15 quid, etc etc.

 

[RailWonderer]

The pertinent question is whether a majority of passengers are holding full fare tickets, or if the train is full of people on cheap advances, Seatfrog upgrades for 15 quid, etc etc.

I somtimes hear guards chant 'tickets, railcards and upgrades please' and scanning two QR codes per passenger so it is possible. I only go in first on advances or upgrades, I almost never buy full fare first.

 

[AlterEgo]

It's not rare at all. Most mornings the 09:00 and 10:00 off KX are mostly full in first, as are a lot of XC services on the weekend and Avanti services to London in the morning and up to Manchester and Scotland in the evening.

I am seeing a couple of EUS-GLC trains sold out for Monday in first class; I have work up there at short notice and was surprised to see it!

 

[Annetts key]

It's not rare at all. Most mornings the 09:00 and 10:00 off KX are mostly full in first, as are a lot of XC services on the weekend and Avanti services to London in the morning and up to Manchester and Scotland in the evening.

This topic is about GWR services. Hence my comments are primarily about GWR trains. But I welcome other peoples comments.

 

[RailWonderer]

Well as it happens I’m on the 10:30 to Bristol off Paddington and the train is sardines - no hyperbole there, and first is mostly full. Had I known I would’ve upgraded but it’s my first time using GWR on a Sunday.

This topic is about GWR services. Hence my comments are primarily about GWR trains. But I welcome other peoples comments.

 

[Towers]

Well as it happens I’m on the 10:30 to Bristol off Paddington and the train is sardines - no hyperbole there, and first is mostly full. Had I known I would’ve upgraded but it’s my first time using GWR on a Sunday.

You can always upgrade on board, this is still an option on GWR.

 

[alastair]

You can always upgrade on board, this is still an option on GWR.

Indeed, I think with weekend first you can only upgrade on board. Last time I travelled to Devon on a Sunday the TM took a few hundred pounds in upgrades just in my coach.

 

[RailWonderer]

You can always upgrade on board, this is still an option on GWR.

How much is the upgrade do you know? I can’t check on my mobile because the website keeps crashing.

 

[Sleepy]

Bristol to Paddington weekend 1st is £20, other option is Seatfrog but no idea what they price them like at weekends.

 

[GWVillager]

Odd to revive this thread now, I know, but what is the situation when services booked for standard-only stock (e.g 158s) are run with IETs? This often happens on the Worcester to Bristol run.