Un-user friendly railway: Wrongly branded trains

[boiledbeans2]

Yes it does, probably the last London terminal to still have NSE livery at their station.

The digital clocks on Charing Cross platforms are also in NSE.

Anyway, I think SWR did a good job. Many trains still running around in SWT livery, with an SWR branding slapped on.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Gatwick Express services running around the Brighton Main Line

The Gatwick Express is London Victoria to Brighton via Gatwick Airport on the Brighton Main Line. Why are you complaining that Gatwick Express rolling stock is being used on Gatwick Express services?

 

[penguin8967]

It would've be really simple to put a sheet of correctly coloured plain vinyl over the "First" part and leave just Great Western showing, or was that too easy...

That's what's been done on the 2 remaining FGW 150s (not my photo) but not to any of the 166s.

They also managed to clearly brand their 3 387s on loan from c2c back when they had them, can't be too hard to do this to their permanent fleet of 166s??

 

[boiledbeans2]

The Gatwick Express is London Victoria to Brighton via Gatwick Airport on the Brighton Main Line. Why are you complaining that Gatwick Express rolling stock is being used on Gatwick Express services?

I think it's because Gatwick Express stock is occasionally used on Southern services on the Brighton Main Line.

 

[modernrail]

I think it's because Gatwick Express stock is occasionally used on Southern services on the Brighton Main Line.

Exactly. I am not sure it is that occasionally either. I would say fairly regularly.

I am still also very confused as to whether some GX services are running on to Brighton anymore (think that was a thing at some point) and whether that means it is a Southern service in terms of fares, or GX express if you are only going to Gatwick but Southern fares if you are going to Brighton.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Exactly. I am not sure it is that occasionally either. I would say fairly regularly.

Not outside of engineering works and strike days (bar 1/2 services late at night and early in the morning).

I am still also very confused as to whether some GX services are running on to Brighton anymore (think that was a thing at some point) and whether that means it is a Southern service in terms of fares, or GX express if you are only going to Gatwick but Southern fares if you are going to Brighton.

As someone that commutes on it from Brighton to London, I can assure you that it most definitely is Gatwick Express. There Any permitted fares from Brighton are currently set at the old Not Gat Exp price from what I understand. It is only on Sundays that Gatwick Express is curtailed at Gatwick and doesn't go to Brighton.

 

[Mgameing123]

National Express East Anglia trading as 'One' back in the early days of privatisation always seemed to me to be a somewhat user unfriendly brand name.

In particular, the apocryphal "Platform fourteen for the Ten Thirty, 'One' service to Norwich" train announcement.

So, was that meant to be an 1030 or 1031 departure?

No even worse: Ten Thiry One, "One service to Norwich"

 

[Benjwri]

That's what's been done on the 2 remaining FGW 150s (not my photo) but not to any of the 166s.
View attachment 137218
They also managed to clearly brand their 3 387s on loan from c2c back when they had them, can't be too hard to do this to their permanent fleet of 166s??
View attachment 137219

I believe the 166s wording is part of the paint job and can’t be removed without a repaint, or painting over them which is difficult because the colour below isn’t uniform.

The most they can really do is add GWR stickers, which is fairly easy but would still cost a fair amount of money and work.

The are worse examples that have been brought up but I’ve got to be honest in this case it feels like a lot of fuss over nothing. It is pretty obvious to almost anyone that tbe two are the same thing, both include ‘Great Western’, and railway is something someone might easily assume is left off because it’s pretty obvious you’re on a railway.

 

[sprunt]

It isn't just the trains. What about some of the buildings, such as Manchester victoria? From some angles one could be forgiven for thinking that it was still run by something called the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway.

Should Northern (and/or Manchester Metrolink) send someone out with a chisel to chip off the old lettering on the stonework, the tiles of the misleading map and break out the stained glass panels displaying confusing destinations such as London and Scotland?

If there comes a point when there are multiple Manchester Victoria stations being run by different operators, and passengers are issued tickets instructing them to go to the station run by a particular operator then yes, the exterior of the stations should naturally display the correct operator for each station. As this isn't the case it seems like the questions is a bit of a distraction. Is it really so controversial to think that if tickets are sold that state they are valid on a particular operator's trains, then the branding on the trains should accurately reflect who is operating them?

 

[bleeder4]

In my experience the public pays very little attention to the words written on the side of a train, or even what the train looks like. I go on a lot of charters and pretty much on every other one there will be a member of the public getting on with all their luggage thinking it's their service train. Even happens on steam charters. The last one I went on a family of 4 got on at Cheltenham and started arguing with me and those at my table because we were in their seats. Steam loco at the front, Mk1 coaching stock, and they thought it was their IET to London. We had to get one of the stewards to politely evict them.

 

[modernrail]

Not outside of engineering works and strike days (bar 1/2 services late at night and early in the morning).


As someone that commutes on it from Brighton to London, I can assure you that it most definitely is Gatwick Express. There Any permitted fares from Brighton are currently set at the old Not Gat Exp price from what I understand. It is only on Sundays that Gatwick Express is curtailed at Gatwick and doesn't go to Brighton.

I would call that fairly regular

Sorry to be thick but I am still super confused.

So if a Gatwick Express branded train, leaving from the Gatwick Express platforms at Victoria, has Brighton at its destination then it is a Gatwick Express train (in terms of fares) for anybody going to Gatwick but a Southern service (in terms of fares) for anybody going to Brighton? And for anybody joining at Gatwick it is a Southern service from Gatwick to Brighton?

Does the Next Fastest Train screen at Victoria show these services at the next fastest Brighton service?

Then in the reverse, if a train branded Gatwick Express from Brighton to London a Southern service in terms of fares until it gets to Gatwick where it becomes the Gatwick Express fares wise?

Presumably the written timetable then had some sort of note that explains this change in status half way through the journey?

Then the exception to the above is where a Gatwick Express branded train is used on service that is in the timetable as a Southern service and that is just a Southern service (and you have to rely on the boards on the platform to make that clear)?

 

[Benjwri]

So if a Gatwick Express branded train, leaving from the Gatwick Express platforms at Victoria, has Brighton at its destination then it is a Gatwick Express train (in terms of fares) for anybody going to Gatwick but a Southern service (in terms of fares) for anybody going to Brighton? And for anybody joining at Gatwick it is a Southern service from Gatwick to Brighton?

Does the Next Fastest Train screen at Victoria show these services at the next fastest Brighton service?

Then in the reverse, if a train branded Gatwick Express from Brighton to London a Southern service in terms of fares until it gets to Gatwick where it becomes the Gatwick Express fares wise?

No, Gatwick express services run between Victoria and Brighton, and are Gatwick Express for the duration. Southern services also run the route. Each one is the same brend for the whole service, it’s just sometimes when there aren’t enough Southern branded trains a Gatwick express branded one swaps in (Or vice versa but that’s rarer), and this causes confusion.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

I would call that fairly regular

Not as regular as you implied in your intial post.

So if a Gatwick Express branded train, leaving from the Gatwick Express platforms at Victoria, has Brighton at its destination then it is a Gatwick Express train (in terms of fares) for anybody going to Gatwick but a Southern service (in terms of fares) for anybody going to Brighton? And for anybody joining at Gatwick it is a Southern service from Gatwick to Brighton?

Gatwick Express services are London Victoria to Brighton and remains Gatwick Express throughout. This is not new.

Does the Next Fastest Train screen at Victoria show these services at the next fastest Brighton service?

Yes, as they are the only trains to Brighton on weekdays aside from 4 late night services.

Then in the reverse, if a train branded Gatwick Express from Brighton to London a Southern service in terms of fares until it gets to Gatwick where it becomes the Gatwick Express fares wise?

It is the Gatwick Express.

Presumably the written timetable then had some sort of note that explains this change in status half way through the journey?

It is the Gatwick Express.

Then the exception to the above is where a Gatwick Express branded train is used on service that is in the timetable as a Southern service and that is just a Southern service (and you have to rely on the boards on the platform to make that clear)?

It is announced as Southern and acts as Southern for all intents and purposes aside from a red colour scheme. They make it as clear as possible that it is Southern short of repainting it.


In future, please make at least one Google search before posing a question.

 

[modernrail]

Not as regular as you implied in your intial post.


Gatwick Express services are London Victoria to Brighton and remains Gatwick Express throughout. This is not new.


Yes, as they are the only trains to Brighton on weekdays aside from 4 late night services.


It is the Gatwick Express.


It is the Gatwick Express.


It is announced as Southern and acts as Southern for all intents and purposes aside from a red colour scheme. They make it as clear as possible that it is Southern short of repainting it.


In future, please make at least one Google search before posing a question.

I use the Brighton mainline/services around and on it regularly. I don’t need to use Google. I use this thing called the Railway and expect that thing, the Railway, to make it all nice and clear. It is not clear at all in this case. Within the context of this thread I think a lot of the other examples are interesting but highly unlikely to catch you out. GX is the poster boy for branding confusion.

So are you expected to pay a premium Gatwick Express fare to travel from London to Brighton then, if the only service to Brighton for most of the day is a GX service? It is so utterly confusing for anything other than the daily or regular commuter who I am sure has had good cause to work it all out.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

It is not clear at all in this case

Gatwick Express is a train that runs from Victoria to Brighton. How do you propose the railway makes this more clear?

So are you expected to pay a premium Gatwick Express fare to travel from London to Brighton then, if the only service to Brighton for most of the day is a GX service?

Premium compared to what? If Thameslink, then yes. As you say, no Southern services so no premium compared with that. It cannot have a premium if there’s nothing else. It is *the* train.

It is so utterly confusing for anything other than the daily or regular commuter who I am sure has had good cause to work it all out.

You are the only person to find this confusing as you refuse to take even the smallest of efforts to understand it, despite being simple. Gatwick Express is Victoria to Brighton. It is the only train from Victoria to Brighton. It is priced as the only train from Victoria to Brighton. The Victoria to Gatwick fare plays no role in its journey from Victoria to Brighton.

 

[WizCastro197]

I would call that fairly regular

Sorry to be thick but I am still super confused.

So if a Gatwick Express branded train, leaving from the Gatwick Express platforms at Victoria, has Brighton at its destination then it is a Gatwick Express train (in terms of fares) for anybody going to Gatwick but a Southern service (in terms of fares) for anybody going to Brighton? And for anybody joining at Gatwick it is a Southern service from Gatwick to Brighton?

Does the Next Fastest Train screen at Victoria show these services at the next fastest Brighton service?

Then in the reverse, if a train branded Gatwick Express from Brighton to London a Southern service in terms of fares until it gets to Gatwick where it becomes the Gatwick Express fares wise?

Presumably the written timetable then had some sort of note that explains this change in status half way through the journey?

Then the exception to the above is where a Gatwick Express branded train is used on service that is in the timetable as a Southern service and that is just a Southern service (and you have to rely on the boards on the platform to make that clear)?

Gatwick Express premium fare is only applied between Gatwick Airport and Victoria, journeys between Brighton and Victoria on GatEx don't have a premium fare attached to them, However they only look premium as the lower 'Thameslink Only' fares sit along side them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jun 2023 ==

Premium compared to what? If Thameslink, then yes. As you say, no Southern services so no premium compared with that. It cannot have a premium if there’s nothing else. It is *the* train.

Wouldn't Southern have the same fare as GatEx if it was running regular services? (Between Brighton Victoria)

As a side note unrelated to the quotation above, the boards make it very clear that is a southern service using Gatwick Express coaches.

 

[D365]

Even more confusing when Cambridge has direct services to Gatwick, but trains with Gatwick on the side that don’t go there.

Are the Class 387/2s still branded as "Great Northern operated by Gatwick Express"?

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Wouldn't Southern have the same fare as GatEx if it was running regular services? (Between Brighton Victoria)

Yes as it stands. This move was done when they removed the direct services for the Gatwick rebuild, to enhance the coastway formations, but it looks to be a permenant change now.

 

[317666]

Are the Class 387/2s still branded as "Great Northern operated by Gatwick Express"?

The sole remaining /2 on the GN, 201, does indeed have this branding.

 

[infobleep]

I often get a bus in my home city with wrong route colour coding or branding on the side. Does it really matter as long as it has the correct number & takes me where I want to go?

If it doesn't matter, why bother rebransing any of the trains when the branded name changes?

 

[ThameslinkUser]

why bother rebranding any of the trains when the branded name changes?

See GWR turbos.

 

[dk1]

If it doesn't matter, why bother rebransing any of the trains when the branded name changes?

That was always a franchise agreement especially if it shew the previous operators parent company name. Starts to happen around 6 weeks before the end.

 

[modernrail]

Gatwick Express is a train that runs from Victoria to Brighton. How do you propose the railway makes this more clear?


Premium compared to what? If Thameslink, then yes. As you say, no Southern services so no premium compared with that. It cannot have a premium if there’s nothing else. It is *the* train.


You are the only person to find this confusing as you refuse to take even the smallest of efforts to understand it, despite being simple. Gatwick Express is Victoria to Brighton. It is the only train from Victoria to Brighton. It is priced as the only train from Victoria to Brighton. The Victoria to Gatwick fare plays no role in its journey from Victoria to Brighton.

You did your survey of the whole of the travelling public pretty quickly there. You should go into polling.

I can assure you that every single one of my friends who uses this line has been confused by this at some point of another.

Anybody who thinks that a train that…

- says it is the Express to the airport
- isn’t, it calls at the airport
- is actually the main London to Brighton service
- leaves from dedicated Airport Express branded platforms at its terminus
- has a fare that is super premium for one part of its journey only
- whose branded carriages are sometimes used on the non-premium services that cost significantly less, or just seemingly randomly elsewhere on the network

… probably works for Gatwick Express (if such a thing even exists)

As for the comment above that says that when GX express coaches are being used on another service it says so on the board…. That in itself is confusing. To the average passenger unfamiliar with the route, so what? What does that actually mean? I have seen the message before and as a regular user (but not a commuter) on the line I sort of think I know what it means but it is not at all clear.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Anybody who thinks that a train that…

- says it is the Express to the airport
- isn’t, it calls at the airport
- is actually the main London to Brighton service
- leaves from dedicated Airport Express branded platforms at its terminus
- has a fare that is super premium for one part of its journey only
- whose branded carriages are sometimes used on the non-premium services that cost significantly less, or just seemingly randomly elsewhere on the network

It is express to the airport.
It does call at the airport, but they don't claim to terminate there.
They make this very clear.
These platforms have these really cool new inventions called customer information screens and PA announcements (the trains have these too!) which says it is a service to Brighton.
The fare is a premium because it is effectively a tourist tax. Brighton passengers are, usually, not tourists, and as reiterated, it is the only option. There is no need to concern whether it is premium or not because there is no premium.
The aforementioned information screens make it abundantly clear which brand is operating the service.

It does not take a genius to figure out that the Gatwick Express is not a train that calls exclusively at Gatwick. It has not been that for a decade.

As for the comment above that says that when GX express coaches are being used on another service it says so on the board…. That in itself is confusing. To the average passenger unfamiliar with the route, so what? What does that actually mean? I have seen the message before and as a regular user (but not a commuter) on the line I sort of think I know what it means but it is not at all clear.

It couldn't be clearer. It is a southern service that is using gatwick express carriages. A passenger is expecting a Southern service and is therefore not surprised when they see some carriages pull in with Gatwick Express carriages.

 

[WizCastro197]

You did your survey of the whole of the travelling public pretty quickly there. You should go into polling.

I can assure you that every single one of my friends who uses this line has been confused by this at some point of another.

Anybody who thinks that a train that…

- says it is the Express to the airport
- isn’t, it calls at the airport
- is actually the main London to Brighton service
- leaves from dedicated Airport Express branded platforms at its terminus
- has a fare that is super premium for one part of its journey only
- whose branded carriages are sometimes used on the non-premium services that cost significantly less, or just seemingly randomly elsewhere on the network

… probably works for Gatwick Express (if such a thing even exists)

As for the comment above that says that when GX express coaches are being used on another service it says so on the board…. That in itself is confusing. To the average passenger unfamiliar with the route, so what? What does that actually mean? I have seen the message before and as a regular user (but not a commuter) on the line I sort of think I know what it means but it is not at all clear.

GatEx isn’t the main service from London to Brighton, there are Thameslink services which seem to garner footfall from the ‘Thameslink only’ fares, which are cheaper.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

GatEx isn’t the main service from London to Brighton, there are Thameslink services which seem to garner footfall from the ‘Thameslink only’ fares, which are cheaper.

Also, a handful of Southern branded services, at the start and end of each working day. And on Sundays, there's actually no.GatEx to/from Victoria which continue to/from Brighton, just Southern.

 

[penguin8967]

Speaking of the blue GWR turbos, 166215 has gone off to Wolverton this afternoon for refurbishment - I assume this will include a repaint into GWR green as well

 

[modernrail]

Also, a handful of Southern branded services, at the start and end of each working day. And on Sundays, there's actually no.GatEx to/from Victoria which continue to/from Brighton, just Southern.

All super clear and super logical.

Will have to agree to disagree with you ThameslinkUser. Services from London Victoria to the South Coast should be branded Southern, as all the others are.

As part of the justification for GX existing at all is to keep those passengers away from normal Southern services they should not be travelling on what is basically a normal Southern service from Victoria to Brighton.

The premium is not a tourist tax - it is a tax on all airport users. Many are UK folk going on holiday or business.

A similar problem seems to be coming up at Luton now that there is the Airport Express. When you go to ticket machines in the airport to buy a ticket into London the board has the next departures from Parkway but no company name next to them so no way of knowing whether you are buying a valid ticket for the train you are aiming for. Plus you have to take a guess at how well the Dart keep to time/transfer you will need to meet that particular connection. I bought what I think was a valid ticket into St P for whatever train turned up but it was the same price as TL only (but did not say TL only) and there was a more expensive ticket on there that seemed to have the same restrictions.

Is the newly branded Luton Airport Express charging a premium over TL? I have no idea, the machine certainly help me work it out.

 

[Sealink]

For me I think the worst example is Gatwick Express, a service designed to be dedicated to Gatwick Airport, charging a premium, yet the trains seem to appear at various other points on the Southern network.

Mind you, I also think Gatwick Express is the ultimate example of trains carrying fresh air for most of the day, so I may be biased.

 

[infobleep]

That was always a franchise agreement especially if it shew the previous operators parent company name. Starts to happen around 6 weeks before the end.

Well if that is the case aren't they breeching the agreement by not having all the trains changed?

If they are but no one cares then I go back to my previous question.