Un-user friendly railway: Wrongly branded trains

[Mat17]

Why does it matter whether it's First or Stagecoach? Knowing that won't tell you if it's actually going where you want it to go. That's why the route number and destination indicator are important.

I used to buy the Stagecoach ONLY monthly, it wasn't valid on First.

 

[dk1]

I used to buy the Stagecoach ONLY monthly, it wasn't valid on First.

That’s what I love about PlusBus. All major operators & generally cheaper too.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Fortunately, the delayed LNER service was scheduled to call at Morpeth, and so the ten or so Edinburgh bound passengers were - presumably - able to continue their journeys without any additional delay.

Unfortunately the natural reaction to realising you are on the wrong train is to jump off at the first opportunity - but the LNER train probably didn't call there.

My best beloved did this - getting an xx12 from Waterloo to Guildford via Woking instead of the xx12 to Bounemouth. (or some similar error) Baled out at Surbiton and phoned me to ask what to do. (The correct answer being to stay on the first train to Woking, but that ship had sailed)

 

[bathbuses]

I am intrigued though - why do people not just look at the board? It's like going to a restaurant, not looking at the menu, and saying, "Can I have a battered sausage and chips please?"

If someone is not used to being on the railway and they have some technology telling them one thing but the physical train in front of them telling them another thing, which are they to trust?
An example could be where at the last minute a train comes into the platform before another train that was supposed to come before it but is running late. The screens don't always adjust

 

[modernrail]

And even more confusingly they don't necessarily stop at Gatwick!

Gatwick Express services running around the Brighton Main Line (or coastway as I saw yesterday evening at Lewes) is utterly confusing.

They should only ever be used to provide the premium priced Gatwick Express. If they can’t do that and need to use them on other services they should scrap the Gatwick Express. Otherwise you have the ridiculous situation of people being scared to get on a train in case they find themselves stung for additional fare.

I am seriously well travelled on the UK network and this is the one branding point that has actually done me a few times, both ways. Both not getting on a GX branded train in case it wasn’t really a Southern service and also getting one thinking it was, at a time of disruption at Gatwick and then being dealt with like a criminal by the guard. There is often disruption at Gatwick and the whole GX
/Southern thing suddenly becomes Russian roulette when it does.

Makes my blood boil does the whole GX entrapment machine!

 

[FGW_DID]

The 166s are just about to start their refresh program. Any ones left in blue will be green once they go through works.

 

[Snow1964]

There are eight 166s still in FGW blue, although quite soon that number will reduce, as when the refurbishment of the 165s has been completed the 166s will be next in line for refurbishment.

They still have the old website address in fairly big letters too on sides of 166s, which just redirects you to GWR webpage

The 166s look very tired nowadays, they are 31 years old, and expected to continue to at least end of management contract (franchise) in 5 years time (June 2028). And with no replacement yet on order, maybe longer than that. Remains to be seen if the 166s will be fully refurbished to make them look like new, or if it will just be selective, leaving some parts worn looking.

My local station still has the name First Great Western on some of the station name boards, so doesn't appear to be any hurry to rebrand as GWR.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

There's one GWR 166 still in FGW blue I believe.

But passengers being passengers etc, I had someone (grown adult no obvious or explained issues) one time going from A to C, was assisted to the platform and told to get on the train and change at B. They sat on the platform and let the train to B depart because it didn't have C (where they were going) on the front of it, just for them.

There's a good handful - I want to say seven or eight - plus a couple of 150s.
They could have just peeled "First" off.
just Great Western is obviously Great Western Railway.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jun 2023 ==

That's a particularly bizarre situation
If this was going to happen they really should have kept the old London Midland as a single brand regret than splitting.

Completely agree.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jun 2023 ==

My local station still has the name First Great Western on some of the station name boards, so doesn't appear to be any hurry to rebrand as GWR.

Not in any hurry? Almost eight years on from the rebrand, I'd certainly consider that an understatement.
London Midland, Virgin (WC) and Arriva Trains Wales had the logo removed from all interiors, exteriors and stations well before their last day, and while I appreciate they did that due to a change in parent company, unlike GWR, it shows it can be done.

Maybe it didn't need to be done that quickly, but eight years!

 

[zwk500]

Not in any hurry? Almost eight years on from the rebrand, I'd certainly consider that an understatement.
London Midland, Virgin (WC) and Arriva Trains Wales had the logo removed from all interiors, exteriors and stations well before their last day, and while I appreciate they did that due to a change in parent company, unlike GWR, it shows it can be done.

Maybe it didn't need to be done that quickly, but eight years!

A station and a train are slightly different to me, I can quite understand that sending a van around to every last station on the network is very expensive just to change a few signs, and that for the smaller lines with predominantly local users it's not necessary as they'll know who runs their trains.
However I agree that for a train it's more important. Unless the unit is dedicated to a specific service then it's highly likely it'll pass through a larger station with less familiar customers and the branding could confuse. Given every train will need to go to a depot at relatively frequent intervals, there's little excuse after a couple of months for not at least covering the old name, even if you leave the base paint scheme.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

A station and a train are slightly different to me, I can quite understand that sending a van around to every last station on the network is very expensive just to change a few signs, and that for the smaller lines with predominantly local users it's not necessary as they'll know who runs their trains.
However I agree that for a train it's more important. Unless the unit is dedicated to a specific service then it's highly likely it'll pass through a larger station with less familiar customers and the branding could confuse. Given every train will need to go to a depot at relatively frequent intervals, there's little excuse after a couple of months for not at least covering the old name, even if you leave the base paint scheme.

Sure and I agree, but of course First Great Western is on the trains too, not just the stations.

 

[12LDA28C]

Maybe we should just pick a colour (with a contrasting door colour) and then just paint all rolling stock that.

I don't think the branding really adds anything, so why bother?

Brilliant. Then nobody would be able to tell what operator a service was being run by, unless you had specific knowledge of traction types and so on, which a casual or infrequent traveller probably wouldn't. Add some delay or disruption into the mix and you'd have people getting on the wrong train all the time.

 

[HSTEd]

Brilliant. Then nobody would be able to tell what operator a service was being run by, unless you had specific knowledge of traction types and so on, which a casual or infrequent traveller probably wouldn't. Add some delay or disruption into the mix and you'd have people getting on the wrong train all the time.

They would surely just board the train the boards told them to?

Boards being so wrong on such things is quite rare. How do you think it is done on every integrated railway in the world?

The branding zoo is a rather recent innovation

 

[zwk500]

They would surely just board the train the boards told them to?

The boards can be quite confused during disruption.

Boards being so wrong on such things is quite rare. How do you think it is done on every integrated railway in the world?

Nearly every railway has some form of branding distinction, even if it's just between 'Local' and 'Intercity'

The branding zoo is a rather recent innovation

The more than 100 independent railway companies pre-grouping suggest that actually a unified brand is a more recent innovation than diversified branding.

 

[Bartsimho]

That can't always be the case. Sometimes railway operators loan trains from other operators like what GWR did when the IET crisis came and who would want to rebrand a train that will be given back to the operator in a few months time.

Well just replace the name stickers. Most people don't care about the overall livery but what the name says on the side instead as they don't have an internal knowledge of the liveries for different rolling stock.

That's a particularly bizarre situation
If this was going to happen they really should have kept the old London Midland as a single brand regret than splitting.
Or, if they were desperate to have two brands then the way EMR have done it would have worked better (EMR Regional, EMR Intercity). Two distinct brands but both clearly EMR
In fact I think London Midland had that kind of idea, branding the more local ones as London Midland City

EMR have it right at the moment. They have 3 brands Regional, Intercity and Connect (Luton Airport Express sticker not withstanding). The first thing they did when they got Turbostars from Southern was peel off the Southern Logo and stick EMR Regional on the side. The entire rest of the livery and interior was still Southern but there was no ambiguity that this was an EMR service.

The inability of GWR to even bother to peel off First Great Western to stick Great Western Railway on the side even if they are the same company is completely lousy when it has been 8 years since. There should be things in the franchise agreements about rebrand timescales even if its just when the old name should be peeled off the rolling stock.

 

[12LDA28C]

They would surely just board the train the boards told them to?

Boards being so wrong on such things is quite rare. How do you think it is done on every integrated railway in the world?

The branding zoo is a rather recent innovation

The boards are not always 100% correct particularly during disruption, last minute platform changes, trains arriving out of path and so on. It is also not unheard of for information screens to fail or the whole system to go down due to external factors and suchlike.

 

[Pakenhamtrain]

Wider use of temporary stickers for door windows might be useful. Can be applied to all units within a couple of days by depot staff before a permanent/semi-permanent rebranding can take place. Even issue a stack to Guards/TMs to replace ones that are ripped off by passengers.

It should also be clearly stated by station announcements and departure boards the operator/branding of the service? I highly doubt the departure boards for the service OP was describing said 'First Great Western' - All announcements and boards would have been for GWR, but I do understand the confusion for the passengers involved.

When Metro took over from Connex in 2009 Metro went around within the first month slapping thier logo over anything Connex:

https://i.imgur.com/NaERHNc.jpg

Even prior in 2004 when National Express handed back thier franchise Connex took over that and they partially stripped the M>Train livery:

Vicsig - Photos

Maybe we should just pick a colour (with a contrasting door colour) and then just paint all rolling stock that.

I don't think the branding really adds anything, so why bother?

We have gone from letting the operator pick whatever paint job they like. To the government using it as a standard livery for all of public transport in the state with minimal operator branding:

https://i.imgur.com/4yTfcQF.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/8P9N0OV.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/nm2gbBI.jpg

Kinetic bus #377 4081AO out of service on Hampshire Road, Sunshine

Photographs of trains and railway infrastructure from around Victoria, Australia

railgallery.wongm.com

The only difference. The colour for each mode. Blue for Metropolitan Trains, purple for regional trains, green for trams and orange for buses.

 

[Dr Hoo]

It isn't just the trains. What about some of the buildings, such as Manchester victoria? From some angles one could be forgiven for thinking that it was still run by something called the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway.

Should Northern (and/or Manchester Metrolink) send someone out with a chisel to chip off the old lettering on the stonework, the tiles of the misleading map and break out the stained glass panels displaying confusing destinations such as London and Scotland?

 

[harz99]

It would've be really simple to put a sheet of correctly coloured plain vinyl over the "First" part and leave just Great Western showing, or was that too easy...

 

[AzureOtsu]

in the day and age of promoting accessibility, it does rather do the opposite. if it was up to common sense alone this wouldn't be an issue

 

[Sm5]

Theres some southern 170’s running around the midlands these days too.

At somepoint maybe Southern meets Northern ?

 

[NorthKent1989]

Highbury & Islington still had the 80s/90s era NSE branding when the London Overground took over in the mid 2000s, when NSE hadn’t been a thing for over ten years at that point

 

[12LDA28C]

Highbury & Islington still had the 80s/90s era NSE branding when the London Overground took over in the mid 2000s, when NSE hadn’t been a thing for over ten years at that point

There is still NSE branding in evidence at London Marylebone today...

 

[driverd]

I often get a bus in my home city with wrong route colour coding or branding on the side. Does it really matter as long as it has the correct number & takes me where I want to go?

I think the point is that trains don't have numbers and it's 50/50 if they're displaying the correct destination.

Especially when it comes to advance fares, where failure to board the correct train can carry harsh financial punishment - I don't think it's much to ask for the operator to have their house in order.

 

[NorthKent1989]

There is still NSE branding in evidence at London Marylebone today...

Yes it does, probably the last London terminal to still have NSE livery at their station.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I think the point is that trains don't have numbers and it's 50/50 if they're displaying the correct destination.

Especially when it comes to advance fares, where failure to board the correct train can carry harsh financial punishment - I don't think it's much to ask for the operator to have their house in order.

Genuine question: Is there any ‘link’ between the destination display and the operating system?

I.e. is it possible for the display to show (say) “Brighton” when the train is in fact heading for (say) Bedford even though the rest of train, driver, signaller, control and so on are confident that it is indeed a service to Bedford?

If the destination displays are ‘wrong’ 50% of the time why wouldn’t any displayed ‘head code’, reporting number, retail service ID or whatever be making the same ‘error’?

 

[43055]

Theres some southern 170’s running around the midlands these days too.

At somepoint maybe Southern meets Northern ?

Yes 3 of them and also 3 in ex Grater Anglia white but the former Southern/Transport for Wales branding has been removed and replaced with EMR Regional.

I'm sure every day Southern meets Northern at Nottingham

 

[Mcr Warrior]

National Express East Anglia trading as 'One' back in the early days of privatisation always seemed to me to be a somewhat user unfriendly brand name.

In particular, the apocryphal "Platform fourteen for the Ten Thirty, 'One' service to Norwich" train announcement.

So, was that meant to be an 1030 or 1031 departure?

 

[12LDA28C]

I.e. is it possible for the display to show (say) “Brighton” when the train is in fact heading for (say) Bedford even though the rest of train, driver, signaller, control and so on are confident that it is indeed a service to Bedford?

If the destination displays are ‘wrong’ 50% of the time why wouldn’t any displayed ‘head code’, reporting number, retail service ID or whatever be making the same ‘error’?

Yes, absolutely. Depending on the type of stock it's entirely possible for the PIS to be working in one direction and after the train has reached destination and the cab at the other end is energised, the PIS fails. In that situation the destination will be retained as for the previous journey despite the train travelling in the opposite direction. I've certainly seen that on some Chiltern units where that has happened and the train is arriving at Marylebone with 'High Wycombe' or 'Oxford' displayed on the front of the train.

However that is purely a fault with the on-board PIS and would not affect how the train is described on any signalling system or advertised on any station information screen.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Who remembers the class 57 loco hauled Taunton-Cardiff services some years ago? A typical combination was top & tail Virgin liveried 57/3s driven by a First GBRF driver hauling a rake of Anglia liveried coaches with a FGW guard.
Equally random liveried class 67s hauling either BR blue/grey or InterCity raspberry ripple coaches with an EWS driver and FGW guard.
Happy days but apart from the guard and window labels you really wouldn’t know it was an FGW service!

is it possible for the display to show (say) “Brighton” when the train is in fact heading for (say) Bedford even though the rest of train, driver, signaller, control and so on are confident that it is indeed a service to Bedford?

Yes on units I work but the system may not announce any intermediate stops.

 

[dk1]

National Express East Anglia trading as 'One' back in the early days of privatisation always seemed to me to be a somewhat user unfriendly brand name.

In particular, the apocryphal "Platform fourteen for the Ten Thirty, 'One' service to Norwich" train announcement.

So, was that meant to be an 1030 or 1031 departure?

It was an embarrassing and unhappy time for us employees.