Ownership of a physical ticket

[crablab]

When purchased, who retains ownership of a ticket? eg. CCST, PRT

I'm aware NRCoT requires you to present a ticket for inspection, and allows withdrawal if found to be invalid (with a receipt issued). No other conditions for withdrawal are specified.

However, my understanding was that whilst previously it was explicitly specified that the railway retained ownership of the ticket (In RoRA?), this was removed.

 

[Stigy]

When purchased, who retains ownership of a ticket? eg. CCST, PRT

I'm aware NRCoT requires you to present a ticket for inspection, and allows withdrawal if found to be invalid (with a receipt issued). No other conditions for withdrawal are specified.

However, my understanding was that whilst previously it was explicitly specified that the railway retained ownership of the ticket (In RoRA?), this was removed.

The railway retains ownership of the ticket, and can withdraw it if it is being misused (as evidence to support a court case should it go that far). This is why you are not authorised to sell or transfer a ticket.

 

[crablab]

This is why you are not authorised to sell or transfer a ticket.

I'm not sure this is correct. NRCoT explicitly permits the transfer of tickets, subject to conditions.

Irrespective, I'm not sure that conditions pertaining to the validity (or otherwise) of the ticket imply ownership.

NRCoT only specifies that a ticket may be withdrawn if it is invalid (upon production of a receipt).

 

[Darandio]

I'm not sure this is correct. NRCoT explicitly permits the transfer of tickets, subject to conditions.

Indeed, that has now changed.

5.1 A Ticket may be transferred by the person who bought that Ticket to another person, but
only if:

5.1.1 the Ticket has not been made out in the passenger's name (which includes where
the passenger is identified by a designated Railcard, photocard or other identifying
means); and

5.1.2 the journey has not begun (for example, if you intend to transfer a return Ticket you
must not have used the outward portion of that return Ticket, or if you intend to
transfer a Season Ticket you must not have used it for any journeys already); and

5.1.3 the transfer is not a resale for more than the price paid for the Ticket by the person
who first purchased it from a Train Company or a Licensed Retailer.

 

[Stigy]

I'm not sure this is correct. NRCoT explicitly permits the transfer of tickets, subject to conditions.

Irrespective, I'm not sure that conditions pertaining to the validity (or otherwise) of the ticket imply ownership.

NRCoT only specifies that a ticket may be withdrawn if it is invalid (upon production of a receipt).

The NRCoT isn't enforceable in law though per se. The National Railway Bylaws (which is criminal legislation), prohibits the sale or transfer. I mean, if you were buying it on behalf of someone else, then fair enough, but it's intended to prevent fraud, in that it's not used more than once etc.

 

[Darandio]

Which sums up the railway perfectly right now. One official document says you can transfer or sell a ticket. Another says you can't.

 

[Ediswan]

The railway retains ownership of the ticket

That was a clause in the NRCoC. It is not present in the current NRCoT.

and can withdraw it if it is being misused

There do seem to be other rules they can use to do this.

 

[Stigy]

Which sums up the railway perfectly right now. One official document says you can transfer or sell a ticket. Another says you can't.

I think it's always been largely common sense based anyway, in that obviously its reasonable to purchase a ticket, and give it to someone else, as long as it's not for a specific named person or has a discount attached that the recipient isn't entitled to. Happens all the time. It's when a ticket is given to someone else after it's been used that is the real issue (used to happen all the time with Travelcards in London......probably still does to an extent, but I guess contactless/Oyster accounts for most journeys these days)

 

[crablab]

The NRCoT isn't enforceable in law though per se. The National Railway Bylaws (which is criminal legislation), prohibits the sale or transfer.

Well NRCoT is enforceable in that it's a contract, although I appreciate the contradiction with the Bylaws which state:

21. Unauthorised buying or selling of tickets​

1. subject to Byelaw 21(4), no person shall sell or buy any ticket
2. subject to Byelaw 21(4), no person shall transfer or receive any unused or partly used ticket, intending that any person shall use it for travelling unless the conditions of use for the ticket specifically permit such transfer
3. subject to Byelaw 21(4), no person shall knowingly use any ticket which has been obtained in breach of Byelaw 21
4. the sale or transfer by, or the purchase or receipt from, an authorised person in the course of his duties or from an authorised ticket machine is excepted from the provisions of Byelaw 21

So 21(2) would seem to permit the direct transfer of the ticket.

But I think this is tangential to the ownership of the physical item. The validity of the travel you have purchased (which the ticket is proof of) is separate, I would say.

 

[Stigy]

Well NRCoT is enforceable in that it's a contract, although I appreciate the contradiction with the Bylaws which state:


So 21(2) would seem to permit the direct transfer of the ticket.

But I think this is tangential to the ownership of the physical item. The validity of the travel you have purchased (which the ticket is proof of) is separate, I would say.

The NRCoT are enforceable as a contract I agree, but its not criminal legislation such as the RoRA or Byelaws.

As I said, I do think it's largely common sense based.

 

[crablab]

I suppose the suggestion that a printed ticket can be withdrawn, but a ticket on a device/card cannot be, implies that the railway considers the physical ticket its property (whereas the device/card clearly isn't).

 

[Sm5]

Theres 33,000 railway tickets on ebay right now, going back to Victorian times, are these are being traded illegally ?

 

[Starmill]

The NRCoT isn't enforceable in law though per se. The National Railway Bylaws (which is criminal legislation), prohibits the sale or transfer. I mean, if you were buying it on behalf of someone else, then fair enough, but it's intended to prevent fraud, in that it's not used more than once etc.

I don't think it's for you to say that the Byelaw is encofrceable and the terms of the contract aren't important. There are loads of situations where the Byelaw can be overriden by the meaning of the contract. For example not issuing a zero excess which the passenger technically would require to comply with the Byelaw is obviously not going to succeed in a legal argument. In addition the Byelaws are likely ultra vires in a number of their aspects, which is something that isn't a concern when deciding what one is and isn't entitled to under a contract.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jun 2023 ==

Theres 33,000 railway tickets on ebay right now, going back to Victorian times, are these are being traded illegally ?

I don't see how it could be argued that the Conditions or the Byelaws are relevant to tickets issued before they were even written, if that's what you mean. If the person isn't on railway property it's unlikely that the Byelaws have relevance even now too.