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Earlier today, a rail officer checked my ticket and it was 16-17, however my railcard is 16-25.
She said that she will be sending my ticket and case through to prosecution and I can expect to be taken to court. However, she did not take my name or address or any personal information as such, she only scanned my ticket.
I’ve seen a lot of stories where people had to give their name and address and they were then contacted. Am I still able to be contacted or was this just a really scary threat?
Your e-ticket will be linked to your name and address via whatever app you brought it from. The railway will request, and obtain, your information from them.
Was this a one-off incident, or have you previously purchased (and then used) inappropriately discounted tickets, but not been stopped? (16-17 discount is greater than that allowed with a valid 16-25 railcard).
If you've previously also bought such tickets online, it will be quite easy for the train company's investigation team to check your ticket purchasing history to determine this.
I have used the 16-17 railcard previously, however I haven’t been intentionally avoiding fare. Me and my sister use the same Trainline and she has the 16-17 saver. I have a long list of mental health conditions and I do not like being in public, so when I booked my ticket it was still under the 16-17 saver, but I didn’t check because I thought MY railcard was attached and the type of discount applied is not obvious to me.
She checked my previous tickets and the last 5 rides between Leicester and Loughborough were used with 16-17.
I explained everything to her and said I was really really sorry, but she said it’s going to prosecution and I have committed fraud and I have to go to court.
I am truly sorry and I am terrified, I don’t want to claim it as a mistake because it is my fault I should have been more proactive in checking. I’ve seen some people on here in the same situation who were able to settle out of court (in the same situation) but I’m not so sure. I have been researching this so heavily since yesterday and any help will be appreciated.
I have used the 16-17 railcard previously, however I haven’t been intentionally avoiding fare. Me and my sister use the same Trainline and she has the 16-17 saver. I have a long list of mental health conditions and I do not like being in public, so when I booked my ticket it was still under the 16-17 saver, but I didn’t check because I thought MY railcard was attached and the type of discount applied is not obvious to me.
She checked my previous tickets and the last 5 rides between Leicester and Loughborough were used with 16-17.
I explained everything to her and said I was really really sorry, but she said it’s going to prosecution and I have committed fraud and I have to go to court.
I am truly sorry and I am terrified, I don’t want to claim it as a mistake because it is my fault I should have been more proactive in checking. I’ve seen some people on here in the same situation who were able to settle out of court (in the same situation) but I’m not so sure. I have been researching this so heavily since yesterday and any help will be appreciated.
East Midlands Railway will be in touch in due course via the registered details you provided when setting up your app account, to let you know that you were reported for a ticketing violation and ask for your side of the story. You'll be able to respond to that before a decision is taken on whether to take you to court. Mostly, these cases can be settled out of court by a payment – expect to be asked for the full undiscounted fare for each of the journeys made without a valid ticket, plus a couple of hundred pounds for investigation/admin costs. If paid, that will be an end to the matter. No criminal record, no-one else will need to know.
I wouldn't recommend going to great lengths about how you have mental health conditions, don't like going out, have a relative who is entitled to the discount etc. – this is not in any way personal, but we find that a great many people who get caught fare evading mention these kinds of things but we rarely if ever hear of someone who paid too high a fare owing to a mental condition.
Needless to say, you must make sure you buy the correct ticket going forward.
Hello @sesame - I'm sorry you're in this position. They can get your details, but it sounds like she was being over-scary.
Despite what the woman said about "fraud", there shouldn't be a whole lot to worry about in terms of a criminal conviction.
As well as the fact that companies will very often settle, even where they do take the case to court they'll often use a Railway Byelaw about not having a valid ticket. You can see that from many cases on here.
The Byelaws say nothing about whether there was intent to avoid a fare.
It's usually easy to get someone convicted of not having a valid ticket, especially if they admit it, but it can be a lot harder to prove "intent to avoid a fare" or "fraud" when someone is denying intent. The court would have to believe the case was proved beyond reasonable doubt. It isn't surprising that companies often don't bother with the effort to prove that, and instead just go for the easier offence.
The Fraud Act wouldn't be used unless it was a far more serious case - again, you can search these forums to try and find cases.
That sounds way out of order when she was talking to someone who said they hadn't noticed how the app was set. I wonder what she would say if someone asked her:
a) how many fraud convictions the company had secured in the last year,
b) for what level of offending/repeated offending,
c) why she was saying anything at all about fraud in relation to your case.
Write down, before your memory fades more, how the mistake happened (with more detail of for example what the app showed if appropriate), and what happened when you were stopped including what she and you said. Be mindful that memory can deceive, even a short time after the event. Think about it from the company's point of view - what would be helpful for them to know, to see more clearly that you are likely to be innocent of intent to avoid fares?
What you write for that isn't for them - it's for you.
Also, you can try a draft of what you will write to them if/when they contact you. If you want, you can put a draft on here for people to comment on.
If they don't settle the case at first, you can keep trying, with more help from people on here.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Are you a student? A student union might provide useful support/advice, perhaps including some free legal advice (which you might want to leave, or leave some of if you can arrange it, until later).
I've deleted some posts about fraud as these are unhelpful to the OP and risk the thread going off topic. Given what the OP has told us there is no prospect of a prosecution for fraud so can we keep this thread for helpful advice for the OP. Anyone wanting to discuss prosecutions for fraud is welcome to start a new thread.
I have used the 16-17 railcard previously, however I haven’t been intentionally avoiding fare. Me and my sister use the same Trainline and she has the 16-17 saver. I have a long list of mental health conditions and I do not like being in public, so when I booked my ticket it was still under the 16-17 saver, but I didn’t check because I thought MY railcard was attached and the type of discount applied is not obvious to me.
She checked my previous tickets and the last 5 rides between Leicester and Loughborough were used with 16-17.
I explained everything to her and said I was really really sorry, but she said it’s going to prosecution and I have committed fraud and I have to go to court.
I am truly sorry and I am terrified, I don’t want to claim it as a mistake because it is my fault I should have been more proactive in checking. I’ve seen some people on here in the same situation who were able to settle out of court (in the same situation) but I’m not so sure. I have been researching this so heavily since yesterday and any help will be
East Midlands Railway will be in touch in due course via the registered details you provided when setting up your app account, to let you know that you were reported for a ticketing violation and ask for your side of the story. You'll be able to respond to that before a decision is taken on whether to take you to court. Mostly, these cases can be settled out of court by a payment – expect to be asked for the full undiscounted fare for each of the journeys made without a valid ticket, plus a couple of hundred pounds for investigation/admin costs. If paid, that will be an end to the matter. No criminal record, no-one else will need to know.
I wouldn't recommend going to great lengths about how you have mental health conditions, don't like going out, have a relative who is entitled to the discount etc. – this is not in any way personal, but we find that a great many people who get caught fare evading mention these kinds of things but we rarely if ever hear of someone who paid too high a fare owing to a mental condition.
Needless to say, you must make sure you buy the correct ticket going forwar
No the account is in my name - but we both use my account to purchase tickets. My railcard is the E-card version attached to my account, but my sister had a physical one.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Hello @sesame - I'm sorry you're in this position. They can get your details, but it sounds like she was being over-scary.
Despite what the woman said about "fraud", there shouldn't be a whole lot to worry about in terms of a criminal conviction.
As well as the fact that companies will very often settle, even where they do take the case to court they'll often use a Railway Byelaw about not having a valid ticket. You can see that from many cases on here.
The Byelaws say nothing about whether there was intent to avoid a fare.
It's usually easy to get someone convicted of not having a valid ticket, especially if they admit it, but it can be a lot harder to prove "intent to avoid a fare" or "fraud" when someone is denying intent. The court would have to believe the case was proved beyond reasonable doubt. It isn't surprising that companies often don't bother with the effort to prove that, and instead just go for the easier offence.
The Fraud Act wouldn't be used unless it was a far more serious case - again, you can search these forums to try and find cases.
That sounds way out of order when she was talking to someone who said they hadn't noticed how the app was set. I wonder what she would say if someone asked her:
a) how many fraud convictions the company had secured in the last year,
b) for what level of offending/repeated offending,
c) why she was saying anything at all about fraud in relation to your case.
It's not up to her whether it goes to court, or to claim you "have to go to court".
But that is only a mistake!
Here's something you can do now:
Write down, before your memory fades more, how the mistake happened (with more detail of for example what the app showed if appropriate), and what happened when you were stopped including what she and you said. Be mindful that memory can deceive, even a short time after the event. Think about it from the company's point of view - what would be helpful for them to know, to see more clearly that you are likely to be innocent of intent to avoid fares?
What you write for that isn't for them - it's for you.
Also, you can try a draft of what you will write to them if/when they contact you. If you want, you can put a draft on here for people to comment on.
If they don't settle the case at first, you can keep trying, with more help from people on here.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Are you a student? A student union might provide useful support/advice, perhaps including some free legal advice (which you might want to leave, or leave some of if you can arrange it, until later).
Thank you so much for your response. I’ve finally been able to get some proper sleep thanks to the information you’ve provided.
I am just going to take the honest approach, tell them everything and show how apologetic I am. I have travelled since then and have made sure to use the right ticket and card. I am still yet to receive the letter in the mail, but once I do I will post a draft of what I will send back on here!
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
East Midlands Railway will be in touch in due course via the registered details you provided when setting up your app account, to let you know that you were reported for a ticketing violation and ask for your side of the story. You'll be able to respond to that before a decision is taken on whether to take you to court. Mostly, these cases can be settled out of court by a payment – expect to be asked for the full undiscounted fare for each of the journeys made without a valid ticket, plus a couple of hundred pounds for investigation/admin costs. If paid, that will be an end to the matter. No criminal record, no-one else will need to know.
I wouldn't recommend going to great lengths about how you have mental health conditions, don't like going out, have a relative who is entitled to the discount etc. – this is not in any way personal, but we find that a great many people who get caught fare evading mention these kinds of things but we rarely if ever hear of someone who paid too high a fare owing to a mental condition.
Needless to say, you must make sure you buy the correct ticket going forward.
I have over paid in the past, on many occasions I’ve accidentally purchased tickets for journeys longer than the one I meant to take and accidentally bought doubles and returns. But I will take your advice and leave out any excuses. I do not want to elongate the process any more than it has to be and pay for my wrongdoings. Thank you for your reply!
No the account is in my name - but we both use my account to purchase tickets. My railcard is the E-card version attached to my account, but my sister had a physical one.
I strongly recommend you set up an account for your sister if you can to avoid this mistake again. Or set up an account in your name on another operator's app (e.g. EMR,LNER etc) if she is not of legal age to get an account or other reasons, for her to use.
